A rational way to approach conspiracy theories. (783 hits)
Category: NoneRating: 1.42 on 39 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by Kaelic <scarletranger.at.yahoo.com> (View user info) at 2007-04-03 15:02:15 EDT
I really haven't ever had much experience with dealing with conspiracy theorists, let's call them. Aside from ETS, I, like most people, generally blow them off as harmless and misguided.
Like many people, I watched the whole "loose change" 9/11 thing. I was intrigued, but not entirely sold on the ideas and material presented. It was very interesting, but in an academic sense. I suppose maybe that's because it's difficult to wrap your brain around something so vast and terrible.
Now I am discussing with someone close to me about something called the NWO (New World Order, just like the wrestlers). Basically, the jist of this conspiracy is that there is a very small, elite group of people with very cool sounding names such as the black nobles, and the Council of 3 that are descended from the Illuminati. This supposed group of people wants to eliminate 5.5 billion people and form a world government with a ruling class and a servant class. Supposedly lots of rich, super powerful people pull the strings of this titanic conspiracy.
Now this is not a person I am allowed to simply write off as a nutjob, and dismiss from my life, so I am trying to come up with rational, convincing ways to express that everything written on the internet is true. What's more, it is full of "data" that says that at the very mention of 'conspiracies', most people are conditioned to exhibit enormous skepticism that prohibits logical, rational thought and discussion. The thing with that though is ...
It seems to be absolutely true. Think about it ... mention anything regarding a conspiracy that challenges any type of widely held belief, and it's instantly written off by most people, myself included. I can't verify that this psuedo-science is correct, but it seems accurate.
Any suggestions on how to discuss this very irrational, sensationalist subject in such a way that doesn't offend the other person yet also does not confirm my belief in their theory?
User Reviews
Submitted by sideshow (user info) at 2007-04-04 15:22:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Noam Chomsky is awesome.
you can't really discuss this with your friend in a way that would convince her to accept the other opinion. Using logic to disprove an illogical believe will not work because their believe is based on hopes and dreams that what they are thinking may be true; not based on fact or logic like any normal decision should be made.
Good luck with that.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2007-04-04 10:10:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The thing is that conspiracy theories are more interesting than the truth. What is more interesting, that a bunch of scientist worked really hard and invented rockets and the like in order to land on the moon or that some deux ex machina came up with this elaborate scheme to trick the world into thinking that some scientists had worked really hard and enabled the lunar landing?
Then you have the odd behavioral pattern of people seizing on the most improbable notions and locking them into their brains as facts despite any and all evidence to the contrary. Think of your average UFO sighting. Odd how they always seem to happen around military bases isn't it? That must be because the little green men from outer space like a guy in uniform.
I heard an interview somewhere, probably NPR, with a guy who is a counter-terrorism expert. More like a psychological profiler than your Jack Baur type. One thing that he said that has stuck with me is that you can't have more than 5 people involved in a conspiracy. Any more than that and someone tells someone who tells someone and word gets out. I think that is probably fairly accurate and if so then you couldn't really pull off some kind of elaborate plot like faking the lunar landing with only 5 people involved.
Even Deep Throat eventually sang.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-04-04 08:27:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Any suggestions on how to discuss this very irrational, sensationalist subject in such a way that doesn't offend the other person yet also does not confirm my belief in their theory?
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You can't.
You can pin them down on specific points and show them where they are wrong, but everyone I have talked to who buys into conspiracy theories normally draws their conclusions irrationally to begin with so it doesn't matter how many supporting arguments you can prove wrong they will still cling to irrational beliefs.
Submitted by particle_man58 (user info) at 2007-04-04 05:28:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The world is fucked, I'm gonna go get some automatic weapons and build a bomb shelter. Who wants in?
Submitted by Beano312003 (user info) at 2007-04-04 04:30:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The issue with conspiracy theorists is that they are very much like religious nuts.
You may as well try and convince the Pope that God doesn't exist as try and tell ETS that Dubya didn't do 911.
Likewise they turn up after events happened announcing "See I told you so" without a thought that we may have already foresaw the possibility of said event ourselves but just didn't bang on about it on the internet all day.
Submitted by orph (user info) at 2007-04-04 03:53:29 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I'm being staliked on the internet by a -2 bombing faggot paul_anthony (alias lukecart)
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-04-04 00:49:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
the maddox website has a great take on this hahahahhaa
for once maddox is funny
Submitted by Sphagnum (user info) at 2007-04-03 23:43:06 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
The most rational way to approach conspiracy theories is to just agree wholeheartedly with the nutjob who is pitching them.
They lose all of their mystique once no-one is prepared to argue. Ask Mel Gibson. Remember that movie he was in where he played a taxi driver who carried on with all these paranoid conspiracy theories?
I think it was called "Braveheart"
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-04-03 23:23:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-04-03 21:29:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I know what I do to make this world and my environment better"""
yes, the list goes as is:
- post on Ubersite about willful ignorance
- recycle cans
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yup, thats about it.
Caul knows everything - just ask him.
Submitted by Snare (user info) at 2007-04-03 22:16:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The best rebuttal to this kind of nonsense I have ever read is in the works of Noam Chomsky.
He lays out quite clearly how the powerful act, and why they do so, in manner that describes the phonemona that conspiracy theorists cite, but that expressly rebuts the existance of some all-powerfull, all-knowing inner circle of Masonite Dragon Illuminati Water Buffaloes.
He explains that the manipulation of society these thoerists complain about is being done by the individuals we can see, for reasons that make perfect sense (from their point of view.) No boogeyman required.
Try reading his book "Failed States", or even just chapter six 'Democracy Promotion at Home.'
This should give a few solid references to try and talk your friend back into reality, starting from a shared viewpoint.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2007-04-03 21:59:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
good times
very high right now but I'll get back to this tomorrow
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-04-03 21:29:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I know what I do to make this world and my environment better"""
yes, the list goes as is:
- post on Ubersite about willful ignorance
- recycle cans
Submitted by lungfish (user info) at 2007-04-03 20:22:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by ih8u2man (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:27:01 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Speaking of consipricy...
LUNGFISH IS A MUSICIAN!
http://www.mandarava.com/bookstore/CDs/cd_images/Songs_for_Inner_Lover.JPG
--------
Heh...
...I'm ugly.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-04-03 20:06:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2007-04-03 19:30:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
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Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-04-03 14:08:50 PDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:41:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Seriously: you can't FORCE someone to become knowledgeable, competent, or a careful thinker.
Conspiracy theories are constructed by people who lack (or feel they lack) control over their own lives, material possessions, or a sense of purpse, and don't have the cognitive framework to recognize that this is a measure of their own shortcomings or even simply a case of bad luck.
Of course the world is run by the few for their own benefit. What makes this the best time in history to be alive is that anyone can become one of the few. Unless they spend their time chewing over conspiracy theories and eating their hearts out.
The world is being run by a vast conspiracy of people who care enough about running the world to spend their energy thinking about how to run the world! Shocking!
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and, speaking as someone who's involved quite a bit on the local level, most people are too fuckin lazy to lift one finger to do things to make where they live a better place.
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HAHA
Nothing like unquantifiable bragging to make yourself look cool to the few nerds and assholes following along.
Thing is Jonny-boy - I say good on you for doing your thing. Whatever 'quite a bit' translates to in that deluded brain of yours - the fact you are contributing in any capacity makes this world a better place.
I know what I do to make this world and my environment better - proving it to opportunistic trolling little fuckers like you is the least of my worries.
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2007-04-03 19:30:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
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Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-04-03 14:08:50 PDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:41:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Seriously: you can't FORCE someone to become knowledgeable, competent, or a careful thinker.
Conspiracy theories are constructed by people who lack (or feel they lack) control over their own lives, material possessions, or a sense of purpse, and don't have the cognitive framework to recognize that this is a measure of their own shortcomings or even simply a case of bad luck.
Of course the world is run by the few for their own benefit. What makes this the best time in history to be alive is that anyone can become one of the few. Unless they spend their time chewing over conspiracy theories and eating their hearts out.
The world is being run by a vast conspiracy of people who care enough about running the world to spend their energy thinking about how to run the world! Shocking!
------
and, speaking as someone who's involved quite a bit on the local level, most people are too fuckin lazy to lift one finger to do things to make where they live a better place.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-04-03 17:08:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:41:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Seriously: you can't FORCE someone to become knowledgeable, competent, or a careful thinker.
Conspiracy theories are constructed by people who lack (or feel they lack) control over their own lives, material possessions, or a sense of purpse, and don't have the cognitive framework to recognize that this is a measure of their own shortcomings or even simply a case of bad luck.
Of course the world is run by the few for their own benefit. What makes this the best time in history to be alive is that anyone can become one of the few. Unless they spend their time chewing over conspiracy theories and eating their hearts out.
The world is being run by a vast conspiracy of people who care enough about running the world to spend their energy thinking about how to run the world! Shocking!
---
Hmmm, I prolly should have read your whole statement before I began my little tap dance...
You certainly know what is what. My bad.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-04-03 17:05:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-04-03 16:38:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
my problem with conspiracy theories is that they are built within a paradigm that the government is ill-meaning.
i'm not deluded, i am aware many members of government are corrupted and working for themselves. i fully support being suspicious, but i just can't believe in theories that treat the government, media, corporations, law enforcement...etc, as one big homogenous entity. myriads of individuals all on sync and motivatited by one and only thing, causing ill to the innocent populace. all of that based on loosely connected facts.
that to me, is no different than believing in the Devil. a shadowy evil force responsible for all our shortcomings.
i think conspiracy theories are only another modern form of religion, filling in an empty space in a world devoided of spirituality, which some people do need to go through their day. it's a lot less scary to know you're not responsible for your own destiny, that someone is pulling the strings and that it's just not your fault.
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truth-ish.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-04-03 17:03:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:41:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Conspiracy theories are constructed by people who lack (or feel they lack) control over their own lives, material possessions, or a sense of purpose, and don't have the cognitive framework to recognize that this is a measure of their own shortcomings or even simply a case of bad luck.
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This opinion - while very well constructed and certainly possessing a distinct ring of 'truthiness' - is also very limited, a titch biased and ultimately dismissive to an entire group of individuals who fall outside of your general parameters.
What about the few people who DO have the capacity to cognitively recognize their own shortcomings, realize their own bad luck and while struggling to find a sense of purpose, to take control of their own lives & material possessions they find themselves constructing these easily marginalized "conspiracy theories" because they just make sense to them based on all of the information presented.
I readily accept certain conspiracy theories - while categorically dismissing others. For me it all depends on the general plausibility of the theory and who is actually presenting it. Thing is, our society is so vast and compartmentalized that there are always going to be groups of people having "secret meetings" about other groups of people. Humanity is greedy and lazy as a rule - so there will always be attempts to manipulate one group into better suiting the general fancy of the other group. Sociologically you see this kind of behavior on the playground - it is certainly not outrageous to consider it happening on a much larger scale.
Besides, certain things simply DON'T make sense - and the official answers that people give are incomplete and beg further examination - but we tend to spend so much time pointing out how 'crazy' these folks are who come up with these so-called 'theories' - that we spend very little time examining the source. "Official investigations" are delayed and convoluted - and the reality is that at the end of the day people simply don't give a shit about much of anything if it doesn't affect them directly.
I think its fair to say that most people would rather talk about American Idol than American involvement in Iran, moon-landings or 9-11.
Um... ya, so what kind of hair-do WILL Sanjaya be sporting this evening?
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2007-04-03 16:46:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-04-03 13:19:15 PDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:41:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Conspiracy theories are constructed by people who lack (or feel they lack) control over their own lives, material possessions, or a sense of purpse, and don't have the cognitive framework to recognize that this is a measure of their own shortcomings or even simply a case of bad luck.
===
truth
Submitted by Zebra (user info) at 2007-04-03 16:39:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
One of the producers of the TV show "24," (who is a renowned supporter of Republican causes), actually suggested that Kiefer Sutherland's character on the show pronounce nuclear 'nucular' so as to help popularize the mispronunciation of President Bush and make him seem less ignorant.
I also heard the change in spelling of Osama bin Laden, whose name was always spelled Usama before 9-11, was made by a couple of network news people who didn't like the first three letters to spell out USA.
What does this mean? Fuck if I know. There's just a lot of weird stuff that happens behind the scenes that the average person would tend to disbelieve on its face.
Submitted by Shlongy (user info) at 2007-04-03 16:39:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Another fun way to do this is to tell you to shut the fuck up.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-04-03 16:38:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
my problem with conspiracy theories is that they are built within a paradigm that the government is ill-meaning.
i'm not deluded, i am aware many members of government are corrupted and working for themselves. i fully support being suspicious, but i just can't believe in theories that treat the government, media, corporations, law enforcement...etc, as one big homogenous entity. myriads of individuals all on sync and motivatited by one and only thing, causing ill to the innocent populace. all of that based on loosely connected facts.
that to me, is no different than believing in the Devil. a shadowy evil force responsible for all our shortcomings.
i think conspiracy theories are only another modern form of religion, filling in an empty space in a world devoided of spirituality, which some people do need to go through their day. it's a lot less scary to know you're not responsible for your own destiny, that someone is pulling the strings and that it's just not your fault.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-04-03 16:19:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:41:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Conspiracy theories are constructed by people who lack (or feel they lack) control over their own lives, material possessions, or a sense of purpse, and don't have the cognitive framework to recognize that this is a measure of their own shortcomings or even simply a case of bad luck.
===
truth
Submitted by Orgasmatron (user info) at 2007-04-03 16:10:20 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Tell this person that there's no way Hulk Hogan's coming out of retirement to give a legdrop to Randy Savage and spraypaint letters on someone's back while Kevin Nash and Scott Hall gesture and celebrate behind him. Thunderlips does as he pleases these days, and Bobby Heenan's far too old and cancer-free to shout "BUT WHOSE SIDE IS HE ON???" again.
Submitted by NoMeD (user info) at 2007-04-03 16:05:12 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Get out, before Janus finds out.
Submitted by jade_digitalmedia (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:50:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
my brother is very into conspiracy theories. you would be surprised how many of them are conveyed through music.
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:44:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:33:10 EDT (#)
But let's look at the facts - Dubya and his cronies are a bunch of political hacks whose every attempt at intrigue are exposed for the pitiful acts that they are (Atty. General firings, Harriet Miers for Supreme Court, Valerie Plame spy scandal, THE ENTIRE FUCKING WAR IN IRAQ).
So, we KNOW Bush is an idiot - so why to we ascribe such devious motives to his actions?
-=-=-=-=-
You forgot the "almost choking to death on a pretzel" incident.
Submitted by Adamdidit2u (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:43:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I'm recruiting for the illuminati, anybody want to join.
(Accepting applications for slaves and eunichs only. Offer not valid in MA, KY, or HI. See your local Illuminati chapter for details. Application deadline ends 9/11/11, or when the rapture occurs first. Offer limited to legal US residents only. EOP. EIC. OPP.)
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:41:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Seriously: you can't FORCE someone to become knowledgeable, competent, or a careful thinker.
Conspiracy theories are constructed by people who lack (or feel they lack) control over their own lives, material possessions, or a sense of purpse, and don't have the cognitive framework to recognize that this is a measure of their own shortcomings or even simply a case of bad luck.
Of course the world is run by the few for their own benefit. What makes this the best time in history to be alive is that anyone can become one of the few. Unless they spend their time chewing over conspiracy theories and eating their hearts out.
The world is being run by a vast conspiracy of people who care enough about running the world to spend their energy thinking about how to run the world! Shocking!
Submitted by Cyrus (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:37:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm reminded of that old saying about Satan, the smartest thing he ever did was convince the rest of us he didn't exist.
Submitted by Cyrus (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:33:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
See, I have a gun. I can kill the richest people. Simple as that.
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1) If you could locate them and get into their secured estates
2) You know exactly what would happen to you if you tried that.
If they REALLY ruled the world, this would be impossible because they would take away all means of resistance and/or rebellion
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Only if "they" were dumb enuf to want to everyone to know that they ruled. That job, ruling the world, would be 100 times easier as long as the rest of us didn't know for sure.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:33:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Nice.
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:33:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
here's the thing with conspiracy theories - most of them are based on extremely complex patterns of human behavior. The more complicated and ornate the theory, the better.
Let's take a current example, like George W. Bush (although you could substitute Reagan, or Roosevelt, or Grant, or Monroe).
Current conspiracy theory likes to indicate that Dubya is part of some giant cabal to control things and events.
But let's look at the facts - Dubya and his cronies are a bunch of political hacks whose every attempt at intrigue are exposed for the pitiful acts that they are (Atty. General firings, Harriet Miers for Supreme Court, Valerie Plame spy scandal, THE ENTIRE FUCKING WAR IN IRAQ).
So, we KNOW Bush is an idiot - so why to we ascribe such devious motives to his actions?
Because - the truth is too much for us to handle.
Rather than accept the fact that we are a nation of morons, led by a moron, it's comforting to delude ourselves into thinking that there has to be some secret plan that is causing all these 'problems'. A secret society to blame for our woes. It has been this way since the first days of our Republic.
Who wants to accept the truth that we are alone in the galaxy on our rock, waiting our turn to die, until the eventual heat-death of the Universe?
Which would you rather have for a leader - a schemer, or a simpleton?
Yeah, I thought so.
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:30:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I have seen the fnords!
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:28:26 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by Cyrus (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:26:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I can't, in good sense, fear a group of people that are "trying to take over the world". They have had plenty of chances since the beginning of history, yet can't get their shit together.
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That's not a bad viewpoint.
Here's another: Guess what boys and girls, we're already there. Five percent of the people have 95% of the wealth. I submit there is little practical difference between this and the situation described.
What? So they're not organized into a secret society... does that really matter? You and me, we still got jack.
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But that's not ruling the world in a real sense.
See, I have a gun. I can kill the richest people. Simple as that.
If they REALLY ruled the world, this would be impossible because they would take away all means of resistance and/or rebellion.
This whole "rule the world" scenario is just a good way to get people to join your cults.
Submitted by ih8u2man (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:27:01 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Speaking of consipricy...
LUNGFISH IS A MUSICIAN!
http://www.mandarava.com/bookstore/CDs/cd_images/Songs_for_Inner_Lover.JPG
Submitted by Cyrus (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:26:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I can't, in good sense, fear a group of people that are "trying to take over the world". They have had plenty of chances since the beginning of history, yet can't get their shit together.
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That's not a bad viewpoint.
Here's another: Guess what boys and girls, we're already there. Five percent of the people have 95% of the wealth. I submit there is little practical difference between this and the situation described.
What? So they're not organized into a secret society... does that really matter? You and me, we still got jack.
Submitted by Kaelic (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:24:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
To me, it's the most ridiculous bullshit I've ever heard of. I actually just did some research on-line and the things connected with it make me feel it's not even worth discussing.
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2007-04-03 15:15:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Here's the thing with the New World Order:
I can't, in good sense, fear a group of people that are "trying to take over the world". They have had plenty of chances since the beginning of history, yet can't get their shit together.
It's kinda like Canada trying to take over Montana. Sure, it could MATBE happen, but I'm not worried about it.