You’re a Fucking Liar, Mr. Giuliani (1349 hits)
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Submitted by <> (View user info) at 2007-05-19 10:24:13 EDT
There were many and various things that pissed me off about the last republican candidate debate, but this one comment from Giuliani really got my goat. Almost as bad as the content of the comment itself is that I haven't seen any news reports (and I've read a fair few) dissecting it. If post-debate analyses mention immigration at all, it's all about Romney and McCain.
So, in effort to right that wrong (i.e. vent an angry but ineffectual tirade in an inappropriate forum) here it is, with my comments interspersed. In the event that my html tags don't work and you're confused as to who is giving what commentary, I'm the one who isn't a lying piece of shit.
I'm not going into the logistics of a national ID scheme or the arguments against it (although god knows there are plenty) because my real problem with this is not what he is proposing, but the nonsensical justification he is using to promote it. A nonsensical justification that the bigoted ignorami who applauded his grandstanding of the murder of 3000 people will just lap up on a fucking plate.
MR. WALLACE: Mayor Giuliani, when you were running New York, you said the following about illegal immigrants: "If you come here, and you work hard, and you happen to be in an undocumented status, you're one of the people who we want in this city." If that was good enough for New York, why isn't it good enough for the country, sir?
MR. GIULIANI: Well, first of all, I'd like to thank Congressman Tancredo for saying that I'm soft on anything. (Laughter.) That's the first time in about 20 years, since I was U.S. attorney, that anybody accused me of being soft. So it may help my reputation.
The reality is, the focus on immigration should be to know everyone who's in the United States. We should have a tamper-proof ID card; we should have a database in which we can identify the people who are in this country.
Mouthbreathing rednecks don't take this as "we need to know who is here" - they see it as "we need to know who here is a foreignor" Guess what? We already do. In fact, I'd argue that the government knows a shitload more about the foreigners who are here legally than they do about American citizens. And guess what else? We dirty foreigners already do have a tamper proof ID card. Obviously USCIS is a little shady on exactly what information is kept on there but I can tell you the information I had to give them to get one - retinal scans, fingerprints, a chest x-ray, a blood sample - it's not small potatoes. I've put a few pictorial examples down below - one for a permanent resident, one for a temporary worker and one for a frequent border crosser. Even international tourists now have their photo and fingerprints taken at point of entry and exit. We know exactly who is here unless...and here's the thing...unless they are here illegally or they are an American citizen. A national ID card is designed to document Americans, not illegals. It's you they want, not Pablo and Jose.
I know something about security. I think I've had more experience at having to secure a city, having to deal with security in the Justice Department, than, I would say, anyone on this stage. And the reality is, we've got to be sensible about immigration. If we do the kinds of things that some of the people here are talking about, this country's going to be in greater danger; it is going to be more insecure; we're going to face a situation in which terrorists like the Fort Dix people, three of whom were illegal, can find a big underground to hide in.
Shoehorning the failed (and improbably retarded) plot on Fort Dix into this point is an act of staggering hypocrisy. The three men who were in the US illegally were brothers from Albania who had been brought to the US as children, back in the early eighties. Of the three brothers, one had a valid driver's license (what's that you say? An illegal immigrant with a tamper-proof ID card? It can't be true!) and the other two had been arrested numerous times for traffic violations but their immigration status had not been checked when they broke the law.
These dudes were from New Jersey, but you know somewhere else where not only do they not check your immigration status when you commit a crime but actually forcibly prevent law enforcement from even asking for confirmation of immigration status from the INS?
That's right. NYC. New York's Executive Order, or E.O. 124 bars officers from communicating directly with the INS about criminal aliens. That executive order was first issued in 1989 but was later reissued by.....who? Can you guess? Hands up anyone with an IQ higher than that of a used tissue.
Major Giuliani specifically endorses a policy that actually prevented two of the three illegal potential terrorists from being flagged up and then he has the gall to use them as an example of why we are not safe, why our borders are insecure, and why we must submit to an ID card scheme for which immigration is only a convenient excuse.
It's a fucking insult to the intelligence of the American people. He might as well have taken his cock out and strolled along the front row of the audience, flinging rancid globs of smegma left and right as he slapped the audience in the face with his dick.
So we need a fence. We need a technological fence; we need a tamper-proof ID card. And we need a way that people who are working in this country can come forward, sign up for the tamper-proof ID card, get in the database and start paying their way.
Just play that last sentence back in your head. We need a way that illegal aliens can come forward and sign up to start paying their way, he says. Anyone who can't find at least 15 serious errors of judgment in that one sentence alone should probably...well...I guess they should probably vote for Giuliani, quivering sack of dishonourable horseshit that he is.
Ok, have at it.
User Reviews
Submitted by Beano312003 (user info) at 2007-05-21 14:56:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: -1
America..... check.
Who gives a fuck.... Check.
I'm done.
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2007-05-21 13:08:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
just one more piece of id to stare at. actually, a national id card would make my job slightly easier until teh feds rewrite the laws regarding pornography identification again.
wtf does it matter anyway. everything can be faked and politicians are all assholes. not like i'd vote republican anyway. barely a point in voting any more anyway.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-05-21 12:43:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
har har, you are invaded by the 3rd world
Submitted by creep_firebombing (user info) at 2007-05-21 08:30:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
You've been hanging around ETS too much.
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2007-05-21 05:32:19 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
i've crossed the border between canada and the usa over 60 times in the last 10 months.
you can imagine how much fun THAT has been.
Submitted by AsshOly (user info) at 2007-05-21 02:12:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I just get outraged when a politician can't conceal his lies. If he cant do that he's useless. I was kidding but I think that makes a small amount of sense. Take this semi-seriously. Or ignore me.
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2007-05-20 23:33:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I just don't get outraged when a politician lies, because most of the stuff politicians say is lies, or else it's some form of pandering. I have no faith in specific politicians or in the global political machine in general. I guess my feeling this way is sad, but it's not that unusual, nor is it unfounded.
Submitted by FilthyAssistant (user info) at 2007-05-20 23:22:20 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2007-05-20 22:31:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
A career politician lied? Well knock me over with a feather! Next you'll be telling us that the federal government is hiding stuff.
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I don't get this 'abused wife syndrome' so many people embrace when it comes to politics. It's pretty fucking sad when you think about it.
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2007-05-20 22:31:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
A career politician lied? Well knock me over with a feather! Next you'll be telling us that the federal government is hiding stuff.
Submitted by MidnightToSix (user info) at 2007-05-20 14:24:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Once again, all I got from this was that domenad subsists entirely off of testicle sweat.
Submitted by lungfish (user info) at 2007-05-20 04:13:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I'd be lying too, if I said I didn't think that this +2 would mean you'll give me some lovin' later on.
Submitted by AsshOly (user info) at 2007-05-20 02:53:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
shama lama ding dong.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2007-05-20 00:10:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Wildman (user info) at 2007-05-19 21:03:02 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
All you need to do is remember the 9-10 Giuliani.
****
Yeah, the self-centered, philandering whop.
Submitted by Wildman (user info) at 2007-05-19 21:03:02 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
All you need to do is remember the 9-10 Giuliani.
Submitted by Lambchop (user info) at 2007-05-19 17:56:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2007-05-19 12:33:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I Plus, Giuliani is an individual who will, if he thinks it necessary, put a boot directly into your face and grind. When you show him the constitution, he'll say "That's a piece of paper. What else you got." Then he'll go put on his stilletto heels and grind some more.
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And having that rough and tough "Amerkuh" attitude makes his arguments any more sensical?
Submitted by Tom (user info) at 2007-05-19 16:34:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Now, Bush is a fucking liar. This guy's just a regular liar.
Submitted by TheUniter (user info) at 2007-05-19 15:12:20 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by Spam (user info) at 2007-05-19 14:56:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
No Comment
Submitted by vexx (user info) at 2007-05-19 14:11:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Why does being a mouth-breather signify a lack of intelligence? Seems more like a physiological problem.
Submitted by Chroniclysm (user info) at 2007-05-19 13:30:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
They're all retards. As are the Democrats.
As is anyone who buys into any of this red vs blue shit.
It's all corrupt and assbackward, anyway.
Submitted by Barnymeinhoff (user info) at 2007-05-19 12:40:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
No Comment
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2007-05-19 12:33:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I was going to rip you, but you made enough valid points. Plus, Giuliani is an individual who will, if he thinks it necessary, put a boot directly into your face and grind. When you show him the constitution, he'll say "That's a piece of paper. What else you got." Then he'll go put on his stilletto heels and grind some more.
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-05-19 12:09:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:31:08 EDT (#)
New York recieves an incredable amount of money indirectly from govt offices, which doesn't fall under the cover of federal grants.
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ALL states receive an incredible amount of money from the Federal government. Virginia, for example, gets a total Federal expenditure of about 90 billion a year... and they contribute about 54 billion to federal coffers, so Virginians benefit from the system. New York gets almost twice as much money, about 150 BN... but Federal revenue derived from New York is about 200 BN.
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I am not agreeing with skrap, but you aren't correct either. He has a point about immigration issues in that elected officials from states like NY and CA are generally more "benevolent" on illegal immigrants because support from people who support them makes up more of their base.
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I AM correct, in that New York and California are not a disproportionate drain on Federal resources, relative to other states. Sure they get a lot of money, but they give back more than they get. Illegal immigration is a huge issue in just about every state these days, and I didn't argue one way or the other about any officials' policies. But people who think the problem, or its economic implications, is principally due to one or two conveniently big, "liberal" states on the coasts are both ignorant and incorrect.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2007-05-19 12:09:01 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
PS: I know several people who can get me an ID card or a driver's license that you cannot tell from a government-issued one. If you have sufficient cash it can even be entered in the official database.
:)
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2007-05-19 12:07:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
"You vill sign zee papers. old man, und you vill tell us everythink about zee family..."
If the government can produce "tamper-proof" IDs, don't you think others can as well?
Face it, the U.S. Government is not full of Einsteins....
Submitted by AshK (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:52:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Interesting read.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:47:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Just play that last sentence back in your head. We need a way that illegal aliens can come forward and sign up to start paying their way, he says. Anyone who can't find at least 15 serious errors of judgment in that one sentence alone should probably...well...I guess they should probably vote for Giuliani, quivering sack of dishonourable horseshit that he is.
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He is a filthy politician. I agree.
But the ID'ing and inquiring of the status of illegal alliens in the US has never been a settled debate. From a civil rights view point, and (depending on your point of view) a constitutional view point he is right. The nat'l ID card side steps this issue.
Submitted by FilthyAssistant (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:47:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Shlongy (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:41:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
What makes you think anyone gives a fuck about your opinion on this matter?
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The fact that you clicked on it, commented, and will come back to check if I responded and then comment again.
:P
Submitted by FilthyAssistant (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:45:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:25:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
We know who is here legally.
With the hodgepodge liscence system we have now it is incredably easy to get ID's that are associated with fradualent SSN's, or multiple ID's for the same SSN's.
We all know it was a pain in the ass for you to come to the US, but your experience has nothing to do with the 11 million people that are here illegally.
With real ID's it will be almost impossible for companies to claim that they didn't know they were hiring illegals.
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Did you just skim it? I explicitly stated that we know who is here legally, I referenced the fact that illegals are able to get fraudulent ID (the illegal with the "valid" driver's license) and the fact that legal immigration has nothing to do with illegal immigration is half the point of the post.
So the only insight or new thought you've offered here is that companies will lose deniability if there's a national ID card. The companies that are hiring illegals right now know they are breaking the law. They don't care. Why would this change because of an ID card? For them to even worry about no longer being able to claim ignorance they would have to be in a position to get caught, and as the sanctuary city policies have shown, that's not much of a pressing threat. The laws to solve the illegal immigration problem are already in place - they're either not being enforced or they are being subverted. A piece of plastic in your wallet is not going to change that.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:43:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I didn't finish reading your post.
Looks like I am the asshat.
Submitted by Shlongy (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:41:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
What makes you think anyone gives a fuck about your opinion on this matter?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:31:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:02:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
In point of fact, this is utter bullshit. New York is a net contributor to the national treasury, meaning the state contributes more in taxes than it receives from the Federal government. Check the states with the highest poverty rates and the largest farm populations to see which states are the biggest drains on the Federal government. Hint: they're mostly red states.
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This depends on what your metrics are.
New York recieves an incredable amount of money indirectly from govt offices, which doesn't fall under the cover of federal grants.
I am not agreeing with skrap, but you aren't correct either. He has a point about immigration issues in that elected officials from states like NY and CA are generally more "benevolent" on illegal immigrants because support from people who support them makes up more of their base.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:25:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
"Mouthbreathing rednecks don't take this as "we need to know who is here" - they see it as "we need to know who here is a foreignor" Guess what? We already do. In fact, I'd argue that the government knows a shitload more about the foreigners who are here legally than they do about American citizens. And guess what else? We dirty foreigners already do have a tamper proof ID card. Obviously USCIS is a little shady on exactly what information is kept on there but I can tell you the information I had to give them to get one - retinal scans, fingerprints, a chest x-ray, a blood sample - it's not small potatoes."
We know who is here legally.
With the hodgepodge liscence system we have now it is incredably easy to get ID's that are associated with fradualent SSN's, or multiple ID's for the same SSN's.
We all know it was a pain in the ass for you to come to the US, but your experience has nothing to do with the 11 million people that are here illegally.
With real ID's it will be almost impossible for companies to claim that they didn't know they were hiring illegals.
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:08:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by FilthyAssistant (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:01:16 EDT (#)
You're probably right about the middle one, coyote, but that brown splodge on the other two is a weird thing that looks like 35mm film - it doesn't photograph well. That part is actually kinda cool because there are 2mm high holograms of all the presidents and world flags, plus a tiny holographic picture of me and various other bits.
They're never going to release full details for reasons of forgery prevention, so educated guesses are the best I can do.
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That's actually pretty cool. On the plus side, if all citizens had to have one you could be pretty sure it would get hacked in relatively short order and then we'd know what was on there.
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:02:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by skrapmetal (user info) at 2007-05-19 10:55:46 EDT (#)
New York and California are, not the least bit coincidentally, the two greatest drains on the National (monetary) resources - they are welfare states and have been so for so long that they don't know how to get along without some form of extra unearned money coming in.
-=-=-=-=-
In point of fact, this is utter bullshit. New York is a net contributor to the national treasury, meaning the state contributes more in taxes than it receives from the Federal government. Check the states with the highest poverty rates and the largest farm populations to see which states are the biggest drains on the Federal government. Hint: they're mostly red states.
Submitted by FilthyAssistant (user info) at 2007-05-19 11:01:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
You're probably right about the middle one, coyote, but that brown splodge on the other two is a weird thing that looks like 35mm film - it doesn't photograph well. That part is actually kinda cool because there are 2mm high holograms of all the presidents and world flags, plus a tiny holographic picture of me and various other bits.
They're never going to release full details for reasons of forgery prevention, so educated guesses are the best I can do.
Submitted by skrapmetal (user info) at 2007-05-19 10:55:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Giuliani won't get my vote for several reasons including his immigration "stance", which is more of a immigration "little lie-down nappy-poo". New York and California have the largest illegal immigrant populations. New York and California are, not the least bit coincidentally, the two greatest drains on the National (monetary) resources - they are welfare states and have been so for so long that they don't know how to get along without some form of extra unearned money coming in. No different in ideology than welfare families, where mom keeps pounding out the whelps for an extra $200 a month from 'da gumment'.
I do not want a person who considers that 'welfare ethic' acceptable to be running my country. No.
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2007-05-19 10:51:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Giuliani is a small-minded, corrupt little fascist. There are times and places when that can work, but without backing from the religious right, presidential politics is not one of them. His continued popularity is solely due to the fact that on 9/11 itself he was the lone public figure who didn't look shit-scared and confused out of his mind.
The employment-valid card in the center looks a lot like the ones we had living in Holland, except for the fingerprint. I doubt there's any useful biometric information on there at all, in actual fact. For any given card I'd give even odds on the fingerprint even being clear enough to be useful...
Submitted by Sacrilicious (user info) at 2007-05-19 10:36:19 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Informative.
Submitted by FilthyAssistant (user info) at 2007-05-19 10:33:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
I just noticed I referred to him as "major" Guiliani. Who's the mouthbreather now.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2007-05-19 10:30:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
i hope they make the ID cards implantable so the bible nuts will freak out and say it's prophecy fufilled.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-05-19 10:29:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Uhh, signed in as the wrong name? makes me want to bump the "ETS is Filthy" post.