Come Out With It: What is Your Stance? (1344 hits)
Category: Science & EnvironmentalRating: 0.61 on 86 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by RyuFu (View user info) at 2007-09-19 13:15:40 EDT
Last night, I had an interesting hour-long conversation with my oldest sister. Quite frankly, just the fact that we talked for more than 10 minutes is an achievement. It's not an indictment on either of us, just the reality of our busy lives.
Somewhere in our conversation my future wedding came into play and I stated firmly (as I always have since the subject became relevant to me) that I won't be getting married in a church nor by a priest. She knew this already, but for the first time my sister directly asked me what my religion is.
What was about to be the end of our chat turned into another 30 minutes of me explaining my views. For the record, I was raised Catholic, achieved/performed my sacraments up to Confirmation and went to weekly religious instruction classes during the school year from 1st through 9th grade. Moreover, I was really into it. I wasn't going through the motions: I was a devout Catholic. I went to church, I prayed...I even punched myself to atone for, you know, punching myself. Oh, I also went to see the Pope when he came to Central Park back in 95/96 whenever.
I am currently agnostic with an inclination to believe that there is a greater force somewhere "out there," be it a being, a group of super-aliens, a cosmic force, some gigantic mathematician, whatever. But how can one be sure? You can't. No religion has ever (so far) provided satisfactory reasoning for the existence of God, whatever that entity may encompass.
On the other hand, science has yet to provide me with the one big question: why are we here? where did we come from? But I'm not talking about earthly context--I mean, what is out there in eternity? We evolved from monkeys and before that from tiny creatures when the earth cooled after the galaxy formed after the Big Bang. If you believe in the Big Bang Theory.
[As far as I know, the rough synopsis of the Big Bang is that everything in the universe that exists--energy, matter, etc.--was super-duper-duper^222-compacted and just spontaneously exploded in a moment.]
I'm not opposed to the Big Bang. It sounds better than probably anything else. But if it did happen to be true, where did this super-condensed particle of energy come from? Is it inside of a bigger universe? Is our universe a marble like in the end of Men in Black?
I arrived at my current beliefs over a period of learning and awareness starting in about 10th grade and culminating at some point midway through college. Part of it has to do with the overloaded philosophy and religion courses my particular school's Honors curriculum had; part of it has to do with my own personal readings; part of it simply from my experiences. At 25, I think I'm far from remaining settled in my beliefs. Something is sure to come along and pique my interest, although I doubt I can be persuaded to join any particular religion.
I think the basis of religion thousands of years ago was to explain the unexplainable. Science, over time, has de-mystified a lot of things, like rain and thunder and eclipses and diseases, etc...
Maybe science can continue this trend towards the proof of God or lack thereof. Or at least explain what's out there. I dunno, I started rambling a while back, like when I clicked on Submit.
This post is by no means an attempt to sway anyone's beliefs one way or another. In fact, if this poorly written article does convince you to leave your religion, you probably weren't too interested to begin with. I would just like to open up a dialogue with what I consider to be a diverse audience. If you don't like to talk religion/spirituality/whatever or you think my views are too amateur to waste time with, that's fine, but I would like to see what other people's take is.
Basically, I want to take everyone back to freshman year so we can bring up Philosophy 101. I'll bring the Olde English.
User Reviews
Submitted by bruzwuld (user info) at 2007-11-10 09:24:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
"I'll bring the Olde English"
This line is a masterful touch, and had me in stitches.
Submitted by Herpes (user info) at 2007-09-20 22:37:12 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm a follower of Alcoholism.
does that count?
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2007-09-20 21:42:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Aetheist.
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2007-09-20 18:03:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
i like banging older sisters
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-20 11:44:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Well, now that it looks like this post and topic has fizzled out again, I would like to thank all who gave intelligent arguments, even if I did not. I'd also like to reiterate that this wasn't so much a way to find the "correct" religion so much as an exercise in learning how some random internet folk think about "G/god," religion, afterlife, eternity, causality, etc. or if people even waste time thinking about it. Sooo...gracias.
Submitted by zwerg (user info) at 2007-09-20 10:19:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Interesting comments.
I'm Catholic, have been my whole life. I seriously considered leaving the church a few times. There are things wrong with the church, and I'll be the first to admit it. Overall though, I find I agree with the church on faith issues (NOT social issues), so since faith is the basis, I have stayed. I find other religions fascination (I minored in religion in college) and I love learning about them. I will never discount any religion, because there is no way we'll know who's right until we die.
Submitted by Nellypaal (user info) at 2007-09-20 07:01:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm getting married in a church and my wife is going to say 'obey'.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2007-09-20 06:58:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I believe in the church of the gun. The bullets are our apostles, powder burns our stigmata. The orthodox of the exit wound is the only rational choice in the 21st century.
If I've got to tick a box then I usually go for Humanist though.
Submitted by NapalmFace (user info) at 2007-09-20 06:36:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Read a book called 'What God Wants'.
it is not very preachy, and pretty much rips apart all other religions.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-20 03:43:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by Phallic_Cymbals (user info) at 2007-09-19 22:02:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Stephen Roberts
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Brilliant quote. Thanks for that.
Very thought provoking.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-09-20 01:57:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
It is a horrible sin to mock Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Submitted by strwbryfanatic (user info) at 2007-09-20 01:43:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I was raised Catholic, sadly. My personal belief is that Catholicism has greatly tampered with Christianity in general. I consider myself a Christian currently and attend a non-denominational church. In the process of realizing I wasn't Catholic, but believed in God, I have attended a variety of different churches. Pentecostal is not for me, for example. I do not believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the form of speaking in tongues. That is what I'd like to call "a heap of crap." And just incidentally, what is actually more humorous than listing to people babble on is the "interpretation of tongues"...seriously...that's comedic relief right there.
But anyway, my family is going to have the same problem with me when I get married because I will not be doing so in a Catholic church - though I rightfully could if that would be my choice. I can tell already because they believe that anything aside from Catholicism (and they might be accepting of Lutheran, but still not pleased) is a cult. HAHAHA! I see it the other way around: I think Catholicism is a cult.
My belief is: You have to accept the Lord as your Savior in order to go to heaven (all you have to do is believe). That's it. You don't have to mop the floors at church; there is no good deed that can get you there. You can volunteer for all the bake sales in your congregation, you can feed the homeless and do all sorts of volunteer work...and that's nice of you to do that, but it's not like you get to have fun in heaven because the homeless dude liked your soup. I believe we all sin and we cannot be sin-free. I think our God is understanding and forgiving, and we should maybe attempt to not sin, but it is inevitable as the only person to live on this Earth that was otherwise is Jesus. I also think that God is loving. I am not one of those retards that sits on the corner with their huge "HOMOSEXUALS ARE GOING TO HELL" signs, because I don't believe that in the least. (Let's just say that homosexuality was a sin, like a lot of Christians believe...my simple response to that is that we ALL sin and all sins are equal in the eyes of God, so who are you to condemn what other people are doing/saying/thinking/acting on?)
Having said that, I think I'm actually a pretty logical person. However, when it comes to God, I know for myself that He exists. I have felt Him move in my life - and yet I cannot prove to the nay-sayers that He is real, nor do I have the desire to do so. I don't think it's for everyone to understand or feel. I also don't think it's okay to walk around trying to "sell" people on what you believe by converting them.
'grats on the nuptials and best of luck to you in your future!
Submitted by ilikesteak (user info) at 2007-09-20 00:04:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
My problem with big bang is, what caused the galactic cork to pop?
Submitted by Donitsu2002 (user info) at 2007-09-19 23:28:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Phallic_Cymbals (user info) at 2007-09-19 22:02:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm doing an Honours degree in Philosophy. God is utter rubbish, but socially useful.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Stephen Roberts
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"What do you do with a philosophy degree? Teach philosophy!" My philosophy professor.
Submitted by Phallic_Cymbals (user info) at 2007-09-19 22:02:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm doing an Honours degree in Philosophy. God is utter rubbish, but socially useful.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Stephen Roberts
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 21:50:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
so, respek, I just wrote a post on why I don't believe in any particular religion. I studied the origins of religion from a social standpoint back in high school and from a psychological standpoint in college. That and I had common sense enough to distance myself from something that says sex with my girlfriend is wrong, and doubly so with a condom.
Indo just wrote it more succinctly below, but the point is still the same: even if neuroscience (which I'm a fan of--go stem cells!) disproves one religious point after another, how can you prove that that refutes the existence of a higher order?
I guess what a true agnostic is looking for is for devout religious folk to make a giant hand to come down from the sky with a sign that says "I'm God," or for scientists to find the Frankenstein secret of life.
Makes for interesting conversation during downtime at work.
Submitted by BLITZKREIG_BOB (user info) at 2007-09-19 21:38:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Dear Lord baby Jesus, or as our brothers in the south call you,jesuz, we thank you so much for this bountiful harvest of Dominos, KFC, and the always delicious Taco Bell. I just want to take time to say thank you for my family. My two beautiful, beautiful, handsome striking sons, Walker, and Texas Ranger, or TR as we call him. And of course my red hot smokin' wife Carley, who is a stone cold fox.
Submitted by bob (user info) at 2007-09-19 21:19:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm a 6 on the scale...7 is impossible.
Funny how there are so many 1s but almost no 7s? Makes you wonder how those people at the 1 category really think since so few 6s will barely ever contemplate being a 7.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-09-19 19:05:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Respek (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:16:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Are you FREAKING KIDDING ME???? PROOF??
Have you ever heard of a thing called neuroscience you religious asshole?? It's the wonderful study of why the human brain operates the way it does, for example why we create fairy stories like religion in order to comfort ourselves from the idea that we are worthless dust specks in the universe. Neuroscience is slowly discrediting one religious point after another, pretty soon religion will have nothing to stand on but opinion.
AND HERES THE MOST IMPORTANT PART: Once you believe that your opinion takes precedence over hard justifyable SCIENCE (you know, that shit that can be proven, unlike religion), then you become a phsycopath, likened to suicide bombers (who, by the way, also put God before everything else in their lives).
Yes yes religion preaches a lot of good morals, but these are the same morals you can get from watching five hours of PBS, or one episode of south park. When given to the wrong people, religion call kill (Crusades, Jihad, Spanish Inquisition, when given to the wrong people, PBS can be used in no way harm anyone. also, going along with that, GOOD MORALS SHOULDNT BE SATURATED WITH THREATS OF HELL ASSHOLES!!!!!!
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Did someone just read "dragons of Eden, evolution of the human man". Pretty mind blowing when I was in 7th grade and had never been exposed to those ideas before. And if you were debating about religion with me in 7th grade you would have made an impression, but unfortunately you aren't and this arguments is too short sighted to be worth it, ut I will give it a go.
If I were to believe in an all powerful being, wouldn't it be within the realm of reason for me to believe that this being could cause human mids to develope like that so it would be easier for people to accept him? That was pretty simple, and doesn't require any refuting of science.
Plus as far as morals, yes I could learn what they are from a few hours of PBS but without god you can't give me a single good reason I should follow them. Plus, if you are going to bring up crusades or suicide bombers then don't forget communism an athiestic school of thought that has killed many more people.
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2007-09-19 18:40:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 18:11:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by EatMeCompletely (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:57:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:43:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake"
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You're not your fucking job.
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neither of you are brad pitt and fight club isn't realistic
______________________________
Hahaha, that movie is so far up its own ass it's finding buffalo nickels.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-09-19 18:38:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:41:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
i don't know if it's the language, but the subject religion seems to be fairly present with anglo-saxxons.
i'm not saying they are more religious, it just seems more of a public thing. gratuitious generalization but sill...even though it is widely catholic, france is extremely secular and even in my province, which probably has more churches per square miles than anywhere in the industrialized world, religion is rarely discussed, except now because some minorities are threatening our secularity.
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There is a lot less to talk about twhen it comes to religion if most people grew up with the same or at least a similiar religious experience.
Submitted by triangle_man (user info) at 2007-09-19 18:38:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Yada yada yada
blah blah blagh
Great quantities of people kill and die in the defense of so called religious beliefs.
Ask the dead for whom the bell tolled.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 18:11:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by EatMeCompletely (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:57:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:43:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're not your fucking job.
===
neither of you are brad pitt and fight club isn't realistic
Submitted by EatMeCompletely (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:57:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:43:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're not your fucking job.
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:43:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake"
Submitted by Respek (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:34:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Hahaha, i win.
Submitted by Donitsu2002 (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:32:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Are you FREAKING KIDDING ME???? PROOF??
Have you ever heard of a thing called neuroscience you religious asshole?? It's the wonderful study of why the human brain operates the way it does, for example why we create fairy stories like religion in order to comfort ourselves from the idea that we are worthless dust specks in the universe. Neuroscience is slowly discrediting one religious point after another, pretty soon religion will have nothing to stand on but opinion.
AND HERES THE MOST IMPORTANT PART: Once you believe that your opinion takes precedence over hard justifyable SCIENCE (you know, that shit that can be proven, unlike religion), then you become a phsycopath, likened to suicide bombers (who, by the way, also put God before everything else in their lives).
Religion was pulled out of someone's ass at some point, and why? Because people needed to feel like their suffering was for a good cause. Every major holy text is full of countless impossiblities and contradictions, this shit is a fairy story to help people take their mind of off the fact that they are afraid of death.
Yes yes religion preaches a lot of good morals, but these are the same morals you can get from watching five hours of PBS, or one episode of south park. When given to the wrong people, religion call kill (Crusades, Jihad, Spanish Inquisition, when given to the wrong people, PBS can be used in no way harm anyone. also, going along with that, GOOD MORALS SHOULDNT BE SATURATED WITH THREATS OF HELL ASSHOLES!!!!!!
Damn you arrogant fuckers, telling me that my thoughts are based on opinions. The only opinion I have is that people who believe my thoughts stem from plain and simple one-sided pulled-out-of-my ass opinions, are ignorant assholes themselves.
Accept your death as an animal, not as anything more, and you can live happy life outside of apotheosis. Ok, i have to go, it's been fun destroying your petty beliefs this morning--which ironically you can't do for me because I have evidence to back up my claims--but I must go to my biology class, here's to science! Fuckwits.
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Congratulations, you just spent 10 minutes making yourself look like an asshat.
Submitted by i_can_get_you_a_toe (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:19:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
meh, I got over debating religion when I was 21 - but not before I pissed off alot of people.
Submitted by Respek (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:16:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:52:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
All religion does is propegate hate and exclusiveness*, it's the driving force behind a majority of the bullshit and bad ideas in this world. THERE IS NO GOD, because if there was, there'd have been a lot of people who would have beat him to death by now for the shit he's done to humanity. IF there is a god, I personally will punch him in the face, or help Satan defeat god with the forces of evil.
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See, that's just the thing--you vehemently state that there is no God, but that is your opinion, your belief. It cannot be truth, no matter how loudly you proclaim it. Let me present this scenario: what if I believe God is an "evil genius" (too lazy to look up the philosopher that coined it) playing a game of SimCity/The Sims and we are his creation in that way. I know it sounds preposterous, but that could explain why so much bullshit happens in this world. But that can only be a belief. Until I can get a solid proof, that's how I will view things.
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Are you FREAKING KIDDING ME???? PROOF??
Have you ever heard of a thing called neuroscience you religious asshole?? It's the wonderful study of why the human brain operates the way it does, for example why we create fairy stories like religion in order to comfort ourselves from the idea that we are worthless dust specks in the universe. Neuroscience is slowly discrediting one religious point after another, pretty soon religion will have nothing to stand on but opinion.
AND HERES THE MOST IMPORTANT PART: Once you believe that your opinion takes precedence over hard justifyable SCIENCE (you know, that shit that can be proven, unlike religion), then you become a phsycopath, likened to suicide bombers (who, by the way, also put God before everything else in their lives).
Religion was pulled out of someone's ass at some point, and why? Because people needed to feel like their suffering was for a good cause. Every major holy text is full of countless impossiblities and contradictions, this shit is a fairy story to help people take their mind of off the fact that they are afraid of death.
Yes yes religion preaches a lot of good morals, but these are the same morals you can get from watching five hours of PBS, or one episode of south park. When given to the wrong people, religion call kill (Crusades, Jihad, Spanish Inquisition, when given to the wrong people, PBS can be used in no way harm anyone. also, going along with that, GOOD MORALS SHOULDNT BE SATURATED WITH THREATS OF HELL ASSHOLES!!!!!!
Damn you arrogant fuckers, telling me that my thoughts are based on opinions. The only opinion I have is that people who believe my thoughts stem from plain and simple one-sided pulled-out-of-my ass opinions, are ignorant assholes themselves.
Accept your death as an animal, not as anything more, and you can live happy life outside of apotheosis. Ok, i have to go, it's been fun destroying your petty beliefs this morning--which ironically you can't do for me because I have evidence to back up my claims--but I must go to my biology class, here's to science! Fuckwits.
Submitted by pen_name (user info) at 2007-09-19 17:07:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
i always wanted to write a story about the first sentient life and have them live on the big-bang planet, you know, before it went BIG BANG.
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:52:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
All religion does is propegate hate and exclusiveness*, it's the driving force behind a majority of the bullshit and bad ideas in this world. THERE IS NO GOD, because if there was, there'd have been a lot of people who would have beat him to death by now for the shit he's done to humanity. IF there is a god, I personally will punch him in the face, or help Satan defeat god with the forces of evil.
------------------------------------------
See, that's just the thing--you vehemently state that there is no God, but that is your opinion, your belief. It cannot be truth, no matter how loudly you proclaim it. Let me present this scenario: what if I believe God is an "evil genius" (too lazy to look up the philosopher that coined it) playing a game of SimCity/The Sims and we are his creation in that way. I know it sounds preposterous, but that could explain why so much bullshit happens in this world. But that can only be a belief. Until I can get a solid proof, that's how I will view things.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:41:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
i don't know if it's the language, but the subject religion seems to be fairly present with anglo-saxxons.
i'm not saying they are more religious, it just seems more of a public thing. gratuitious generalization but sill...even though it is widely catholic, france is extremely secular and even in my province, which probably has more churches per square miles than anywhere in the industrialized world, religion is rarely discussed, except now because some minorities are threatening our secularity.
here, if you bring up religion, people just stare at you uncomfortably. i don't know...it's a personal thing. if you wanna bring up something personal to the table, talk about sex. at it might lead to something concrete. like an orgy with ur whole family on thanksgiving.
Submitted by Respek (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:33:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
do yourself a favor and don't believe anything. You die, your brain shuts down, and you become worm food. The end.
All religion does is propegate hate and exclusiveness*, it's the driving force behind a majority of the bullshit and bad ideas in this world. THERE IS NO GOD, because if there was, there'd have been a lot of people who would have beat him to death by now for the shit he's done to humanity. IF there is a god, I personally will punch him in the face, or help Satan defeat god with the forces of evil.
*except for the buddhists, buddhists are cool, they just kinda sit there.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:29:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:26:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:25:06 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Yeah, I suppose if I was up on my 'excuses for being gay' I would have found it funny too.
Thank GOD we have Caul around.
===
that was just bad.
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Just distributing credit where it is due.
Submitted by The_taste_of_Monkeys (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:28:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by MANICMOTHER (user info) at 2007-09-19 20:56:37 BST (#)
Ranking: 0
As Uber's resident pagan
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Thats a terrible, overused word which has been adopted as a catch-all for any shoeless vagabond who doesn't shave to describe their gaia-bothering, hash toking ways when, what the word essentially means, is "non-Christian"
I mean are you a polytheist? An animist? A druid? Do you believe in a pantheon of Gods or no God at all?
Since the term Pagan covers ALL of these would you like to narrow it down a bit?
And if you say you're a Wiccan, slap yourself, hard, then get a grip.
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:27:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Indo, I don't think it's necessarily a no-balls stance, although it might be half-assed. If you twist logic a little and BS, you can say it's actually the only active approach. To be religious is to try to equate "faith" with "truth" (I was taught from a young age that God = Truth), while atheism attempts to equate "nothing" with "truth."
Eh, maybe it is no balls.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:27:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:51:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:39:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
My stance?
Wide.
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We aren't talking about your stance at public bathrooms.
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I'll be the one taking the mulligan on this one.
Now that Caul has provided the context - it was actually quite clever.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:26:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:25:06 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Yeah, I suppose if I was up on my 'excuses for being gay' I would have found it funny too.
Thank GOD we have Caul around.
===
that was just bad.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:25:06 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:56:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:54:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:51:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:39:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
My stance?
Wide.
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We aren't talking about your stance at public bathrooms.
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You had all this time to prepare and then decided on that?
==
it's a referrence to Senator Craig's lame excuse for incidents in the airport.
i thought it was funny.
you'll pretend to know what he was talking about, but you know you didn't.
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AHHH...
Damn.
Yeah, I suppose if I was up on my 'excuses for being gay' I would have found it funny too.
Thank GOD we have Caul around.
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:19:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Caul: I don't know about agnosticism being the new PC thing. I guess you mean it's like the new fad like carrying a chihuahua in your purse or showing off your iPhone or something. I could be misinterpreting your point, but I think I understand your take on people that declare themselves as agnostics.
Pretty much the biggest complaint of agnostics is the broad range it covers. Everyone is agnostic technically. By definition, a practicioner of any religion operates on faith. Faith is inherently irrational and cannot be pawned as "truth." Being agnostic, taken literally, means believing that there is a "lack of knowledge." Nobody "knows," although many people "believe" in something.
But then again, this isn't a religion post per se, but a belief post. I'm at work, so I have the time to waste discussing this. Sort of.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:08:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:02:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
agnostic is the new PC position. it's like "i support the troops, but not the war"
everyone is agnostic nowadays and more often than not, people don't even know what it means.
i personally believe in laicity. anyone bringing religion in public should be treated with batons and tasers.
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I will be the first to admit that agnostic is a half assed no balls response.
But at least it is better than people who say they are "spiritual" not "religious" if I have the choice between magical crystals and sitting alone to touch the universe, or believing in a bearded lightining bolt and plague tossing all powerful lord of the galaxy, lightining bolts win hands down everytime.
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:04:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
manic, I agree that it is more important to live a good life than to try to find the answer to something we don't have any control over anyway. But then the millenia of philosophy kicks in to discuss what a "good life" is. And the fact remains that I'm irrationally curious. Maybe someone will find some truth that unlocks the secrets of the universe.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 16:02:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:58:20 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I am more agnostic than anything, but in day to day life I would say I am more antagonistic. I enjoy mocking others religions way more than bragging or proving mine.
===
agnostic is the new PC position. it's like "i support the troops, but not the war"
everyone is agnostic nowadays and more often than not, people don't even know what it means.
i personally believe in laicity. anyone bringing religion in public should be treated with batons and tasers.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:58:20 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:54:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
You had all this time to prepare and then decided on that?
...you should totally take a mulligan.
-------------
Just saw this post.
Been busy.
I am more agnostic than anything, but in day to day life I would say I am more antagonistic. I enjoy mocking others religions way more than bragging or proving mine.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:56:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:54:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:51:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:39:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
My stance?
Wide.
--------------
We aren't talking about your stance at public bathrooms.
---
You had all this time to prepare and then decided on that?
==
it's a referrence to Senator Craig's lame excuse for incidents in the airport.
i thought it was funny.
you'll pretend to know what he was talking about, but you know you didn't.
Submitted by MANICMOTHER (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:56:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
As Uber's resident pagan (well maybe pagan-lite, lots of nature without all the worship of superior beings bullshit), all I can say is who cares? It really doesn't matter why we're here. Humanity isn't any closer to figuring that out than we were when Man had his first enlightened thought. It's the journey to "what's next?" that's important.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:54:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:51:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:39:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
My stance?
Wide.
--------------
We aren't talking about your stance at public bathrooms.
---
You had all this time to prepare and then decided on that?
...you should totally take a mulligan.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:51:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:39:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
My stance?
Wide.
--------------
We aren't talking about your stance at public bathrooms.
Submitted by BranDo (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:47:02 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I have a con-stance.
Submitted by FALLEN (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:42:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
no big deal,
i'm just too lazy to type a big response.
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:36:06 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
FALLEN: i agree with your disdain for the repetitive nature of this subject. Mayhaps if one Bart included a Religion option for posts it would be easier to search for them and avoid redundancy.
Submitted by TheUniter (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:30:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by DeadToast (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:23:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
http://www.ubersite.com/m/111840
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:21:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I think it's just a natural--if irrational--sense of curiosity. Sometimes when I'm stuck in an elevator or on a stalled subway car I play a game of "infinity":
Where did we come from? Apes.
Where did they come from?......Where did the Universe come from? Big Bang.
Where did the thing that contained the Big Bang come from? Uhh.
Where did that come from? Ehh.
Where did that come from? Stop thinking, please.
Is there a beginning? [BRAIN CRAMP]
The more I think about it, the more I realize how much time I'm wasting considering the problems in this life I have to deal with. If I ever win Mega Millions I bet I'll stop caring about what's out there.
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:20:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
It has been pointed out by many scholars many times that the older, more foundational scriptural texts make God responsible for both good and evil. This monism was in accord with the dominant thesis of the region; that whatever a culture called their head spiritual honcho, he, always a he, was benevolent or punitive as he wished. It was the duty of the people and their priests to keep the bribes coming, the better to insure crops, wealth, and health.
Within the Jewish story, Job (ca. 1000 bce) is a perfect example of this. Ha-Stn, Ha-Satan, The Accuser is one of God's henchmen. Acting as sort of a heavenly prosecuting attorney within God's cabinet. Ha-Satan has no power of his own, what he possesses are given to him by God for God's own purposes.
A dualism was suggested by Plato in his Republic, but something much bigger and more influential was needed in the eastern Mediterranean to get dualism entrenched and accepted. That something was to be Zoroasterism, its tenets sweeping out of ancient Persia, in the years around 600 bce. Not coincidentally, in my opinion, this is during the time of the Babylonian exile. During this time the people of Israel were not only geographically closer to Persia in a major trading center, but their national trauma would open them up to new influences as they tried to understand what had befallen them. As the displaced Jews sought answers anywhere, the appeal of an evil spirit responsible for their dilemma was great, thus absolving Yahweh. (I won't get into the theodicy of this). The pervasiveness of Zoroasterism was thorough.
Submitted by FALLEN (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:13:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
If this topic comes up one more time I'm going to have to save a response to cut-n-paste.
OK, from the top people.
1. Yes there is a God. If you think all the complexities of life just happened accidentaly, you're an idiot.
2. The purpose of life is to exist and get through it, learning the leasons that come along. You are being developed into something more.
The trip is more important than the destination.
3. No, I do not know what you are being trained to become. Honestly, the human mind can not wrap itself arround the concept, if it could then there would be no reason to experience life.
4. No, your religion is not the right one, none of them are. Your relationship and concept of God is yours and unique to you. Formal religions are groups of like minded people that find it comforting and suportive to worship the same way. You simply need to have an opinion,atheist or zealot, doesn't matter. The fact you kill each other over the "God likes me best! Nu-UH, He likes me best!" is pathetic. it is here that humans totaly miss the point.
5. don't be douche bags to one another. this ongoing theme is in all religions for a reason.
6. it is just as unrealistic for a blind faith believer to discount science as it is the reverse.
7. bad things to good people, I know, I know. why some people lead perfect lives and others pray every day for death, I cant answer. see number 3.
live life, don't pick it apart.
Bruce Lee said "It's like pointing at the moon, don't watch the finger or you'll miss all of heaven's glory"
Submitted by The_taste_of_Monkeys (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:12:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I like bang-crunch-bang as a hypothesis.
Most people and cultures have a hard time dealing with the idea of infinity, me I reckon that we're just bald apes with an attitude problem and a limited grasp on reality. It's not as if we'll ever know anyway, why get so worked up aboot it.
Submitted by skrapmetal (user info) at 2007-09-19 15:12:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
The greatest joke God could play would be to make everyone right about their own idea of the afterlife.
Submitted by DirtyHarry (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:45:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:41:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:35:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
well, the same thing happens to everyone that's wrong anyway.
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That's probably my favorite response so far. Was it a South Park, Simpsons or Family Guy episode or some other show where they get to Heaven and God or someone goes, "Sorry, the correct denomination is Mormonism...yep, Mormon"
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I haven't heard that one, but there was a Simpson's episode (a halloween special I believe) where flanders dies and you hear him say "Buddha what are you doing up here, man have I been barking up the wrong tree."
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:41:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:35:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
well, the same thing happens to everyone that's wrong anyway.
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That's probably my favorite response so far. Was it a South Park, Simpsons or Family Guy episode or some other show where they get to Heaven and God or someone goes, "Sorry, the correct denomination is Mormonism...yep, Mormon"
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:35:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
well, the same thing happens to everyone that's wrong anyway.
Submitted by whiskey_jack (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:34:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Odin mutha fuckers! Thats the god for me!
Submitted by Beano312003 (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:23:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
God's a cunt and I'm not too fond of you either.
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:19:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
or is it passive-aggressively?
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:18:39 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:06:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
uber never had that pointless conversation before
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uber never had people respond passively aggressive to an overdone conversation before.
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:11:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
oh boy
ok if all of sudden common sense hit the planet like a fucking tsunami I think that logically such topics as 'what else is out there' and 'what is our purpose' and other such nonsense would be replaced with discussions about 'how can we stop fucking killing our planet' and 'how can we cut back on our insatiable appetite for more and be happy with what the fuck we have'
of course we probably wouldn't use the word fuck because frankly its just filler and logically that makes it unneccessary but you get the idea.
so your hypothetical about a logical world thinking about illogical questions is frankly illogical for lack of a better word or not needing a better word because really...why have more than one word for the same thing...isn't that wasteful and redundant and wasteful?
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:06:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
http://www.ubersite.com/m/109170
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:06:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
uber never had that pointless conversation before
Submitted by DeadToast (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:03:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
As an Atheist I say this:
One can debate where all the matter in the Universe come from to create the Big Bang. Theists will say, "Nothing can just exist. You need something to have something."
On the other hand, they ignore this rule when speaking of a deity, trapping themselves in their own logical problem.
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 14:00:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:40:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
the 'greater being' in this world is commnon sense, sadly only a small portion of the population practice it.
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I wholeheartedly agree with that statement within the context of this world. How many people have been hurt and/or died for their religion?
I guess the question I ask supercedes that: given a scenario where everyone in this world miraculously uses common sense, what else is out there? The most important reality for most people--those who lost a loved one in Iraq; someone who lost their job; victims of terrorism throughout the world--is that of this world. I myself am struggling with a job I hate so I can stay on top of my bills while trying to save for a house. But even if it's at the end we all die and our molecules mix back with the rest of the universe, I'm still curious as to what more is out there. In all honesty, I should really be getting back to work.
Submitted by Orgasmatron (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:47:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.ubersite.com/m/101670
Submitted by DaBeast (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:43:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
You've opened the floor for a religious debate. I hope you're prepared for the rushing, stampeding mass of rabid religious fanatics that will very likely come to this topic and condemn you to hell (as if that's their right), exalt you for your modest proposal (as if you're looking for and/or need their approval), or chasten you for being a heathen (something I've seen quite often and which I find fascinating). But honest discourse on a touchy subject that you're genuinely curious about (which your words imply) is not something you're going to see a whole helluva lot. It's that "honesty" gig, I think. Humans are, on average, about as honest as used car salesmen just shy of their monthly quota. Not that they mean to be dishonest. It isn't a concious decision to be lying bags of pus. They just aren't comfortable with the truth (ode to Jack Nicholson, anyone?). It doesn't portray either them or the people in their finite spheres of existence in a flattering manner. Gender isn't the issue either, for women as well as men lie with equal facility and at the drop of the same hats. And when you bring the boogeyman labeled "Belief" into it, well nine times out of ten, you're likely to get an entire cookpot full of bubling gook instead of honesty. It's like asking someone to paint a portrait of themselves in words that are neither modest nor boastful, just simply honest. They can't be honest because to look at themselves, their lives, their goals, and all that goes into what makes them who they are, the picture is just too dreadful. Think Dorian Gray and you'd be somewhat on the right track. And yes, I know you asked about belief and weren't asking for any sort of discourse on the Human Condition, Honesty, or whatnot but those things are intrinsically tied together in an inextricable Gordian knot that you must unravel in order to come to anything even approaching a well-thought out, honest answer. Again, though... that's not what you asked. Hrmm.
I should stick to my own viewpoint but I have trouble with that since it is my observations of the humans with whom I have come into contact that has led me to the beliefs that I do/don't hold today. But enough obfuscation!
Here is my reply:
I believe that humans are conceived due to the glandular urges of two other humans that stopped being picky long enough to let their glands do their thinking. I believe that no human is truly a human until such time that they can communicate intelligibly with another human (approximate age 7 years). I believe that humans have no thought structure, no belief system, no honour, no morals, no ethics, no mental controls that are not shown to them by those other humans with which they come into contact during their formative years (conception to say 10 years of age). I believe that the last original thought was had by a man named Socrates (whose last words were "I drank what?") or, perhaps, Aristotle and that every thought since has just been a baser rehash of their finer ideals. I believe in no entity greater than that of Imagination for I know of no other entity that could cross the universe, traverse the stars, delve down into the bleakness of the human soul and pull forth the miasma of Hell, string the stars upon a lute and play a merry tune, craft visions of vampires and Vulcans from the same portal, both damn and exalt those of their species, both create and destroy, love and hate, heal and kill, and all before dinnertime. There are no gods in those heavens except the ones we have placed therein and there is nothing after death except a return to the eternal void from whence we sprang.
We are gods, all. Now, if only we would accept that responsibility and that burden then - and only then - will Paradise ever be found again.
Ah, what fools these mortals be...
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:43:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
yeah bamf was a simple genius
tee hee
I AM HE!!!!
Submitted by ghola (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:43:29 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
is the mofo acct banned or something?
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:40:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
the 'greater being' in this world is commnon sense, sadly only a small portion of the population practice it.
Submitted by RyuFu (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:39:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:18:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.ubersite.com/m/76970
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That was a good post, I missed it the first time. bamf kind of took the more direct approach with his writing.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:39:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
My stance?
Wide.
Submitted by ghola (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:37:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I was raised in a spirit-filled pentacostal-type church, complete with people talking in tongues, dancing, falling on the floor, etc.
I'm agnostic, though leaning towards the idea that there probably isn't some greater being.
Submitted by Zampano (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:24:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I skipped right along to a 200-level philosophy class my freshman year. I might not know the extended basics of the 'What is reality, anyway?' arguments, I can go on, at length, about Plato's Theory of Forms, and how his Form of the Good can be viewed as an allegory for a Trinity-based Christianity (or vice versa).
But I won't. That shit's boring as hell.
Submitted by locksly (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:23:39 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
hmmm
Submitted by monkeyswithguns (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:22:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by Sacrilicious (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:20:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
...and apparently a poor editor of my comments when I retype them.
Submitted by Brdn_Nkd (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:20:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
oh, and my stance is regular footed by the way. forgot to address the initial question.
Submitted by Sacrilicious (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:20:12 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm was also raised in and disenchanted by Catholicism. I'm an optimistic agnostic.
Submitted by Brdn_Nkd (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:19:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I am very similar, raised catholic did the whole thing. actually more interesting is my siblings are the same.... anyway mom and dad are still Very involved with the church and I know it bothers them that out of the three of us there's not one that still regularly attends some kind of service. we all believe but do not accept/embrace/believe in religion.
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2007-09-19 13:18:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.ubersite.com/m/76970