For Captain Thorns (566 hits)
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Submitted by 8 bit hero (View user info) at 2008-03-26 09:35:19 EDT
From a discussion yesterday (http://www.ubersite.com/m/115761), this story is what faith gets you.
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WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.
The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.
They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.
Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.
The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.
The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.
The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.
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I'm sorry, but those parents should absolutely be charged with murder, or at least negligent homocide. They intentionally let their little girl suffer hinging all their bets on wishing her to become better when proven medical intervention would have without a doubt saved her life in a heartbeat.
User Reviews
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2008-04-05 00:13:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
No Comment
Submitted by 8bithero (user info) at 2008-03-27 12:59:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Amputees.
That's why I don't believe that prayer accomplishes a thing.
No matter how hard they pray, how devout they are, or how deserving they may be an amputee will never regrow that limb.
Prayer is a waste of time an effort.
Submitted by SgtHartman (user info) at 2008-03-27 11:28:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Why did these people interpret their faith as being "with enough prayer god will save our daughter" why not interpret it as "god gave us the ability to accrue medical knowledge and thereby save ourselves and our daughter from terrrible diseases and afflictions" BUT NO, these fucking lunatics have to be extremist to prove a point. Unfortunatley for their daughter she had to be an example of how "faith healing" fails time and time again. Do I believe that prayer can help someone recover? Of course the support and love of family members helps in leaps and bounds in someone's recovery. But to assume that God will "heal" your child with nothing more than prayer? Fucking looney toons of thie highest order.
fuck them and everyone like them. PLEASE put them in jail.
p.s. - could the disease or affliction that she suffered from also be interpreted as being caused by God? Yet they are praying for him (hahaha "him" another indication that the christian faith was written and designed by dudes in a culture where women were completley subserviant to men. Thus God HAS to be a man) to cure a disease that is the direct cause of the earth and nature they believe he created! Notice that these Jesus freaks never seem to think that way.
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2008-03-27 09:31:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by 8bithero (user info) at 2008-03-26 08:43:52 CDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:41:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't get what this has to do with CT, but those people should be locked up. The sad thing is, if they were adoptive parents, they almost certainly would be.
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He made a some comment about his faith because of possession. I assumed that meant he/she believed all aspects of faith to be true.
If I was wrong, I'm sorry.
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Well, to be blunt, yes, you did misunderstand me. As Sacrilicious stated, to have blind faith in the fact that God WILL perform a medical miracle in response to every prayer is not the average Christian's belief. In fact, I agree with you that the parents should be charged with neglect. I currently work in health care and I believe that our knowledge of science and medicine are gifts from God, and not to be tossed aside or misused in a twisted definition of "faith" as this couple did. They were not demonstrating faith, they were demonstrating ignorance and stupidity. We know how to take care of each other for a reason, and it's our responsibility to do so, especially for our own offspring.
No doubt, one's spirituality can play an important role in the healing process, having will to live and what not, but one must not disbelieve or discount the inherent worth of our God-given abilities, either.
I also agree with Skrap's statement here: http://www.ubersite.com/m/115774#2677864
BTW, sorry I didn't respond to you sooner. I was out of the office yesterday at a conference and just saw this post today.
Submitted by orphelia (user info) at 2008-03-27 05:26:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Her parents are insane.
Submitted by EmissionImpossible (user info) at 2008-03-27 04:54:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by MyTeeOne (user info) at 2008-03-26 22:16:39 GMT (#)
Ranking: 0
It's sad this girl is dead.
Is it also sad I laughed out loud at several parts of this story?
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I dunno, did you?
Submitted by HotWillie (user info) at 2008-03-26 23:26:51 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
yay another news story
Submitted by DonovanMD (user info) at 2008-03-26 19:00:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Religion - Killing people since the dawn of time
Submitted by Yozz (user info) at 2008-03-26 18:40:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
FYI - http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/546736.html
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2008-03-26 18:22:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by forensicgirl3 (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:14:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
This was several years ago when I still worked in a hospital, but there was a family that upset me quite a bit.
They had 3 children and were very suspicious of modern medicine and highly paranoid and struck me as the type that believe conspiracy theories.
Why they even bothered to come to a hospital to see a doctor, I don't know.
They were constantly battling the doctors when it came to what treatments and preventative care they would allow for their children. The mother especially was adamant against required innoculations. Oh yes, the kids were home schooled.
They had recently had a new baby. PKU (Phenylketonuria) screenings are required by the state of Missouri. Simple test really, I just pricked a baby's heel with a lancet (specially designed for neonates), used a glass capillary tube which I held against the puncture site, and filled in 5 circles on a test card with samples of the baby's blood. We did hundreds of them a year.
When they brought the baby in for its first check up and the mother was told to take her baby to lab so we could do a PKU test, she freaked out and started yelling at all of us. She called the doctor 'evil' and said those of us in lab were 'butchers.'
That pissed me off.
Since it was a state required test (PKU complications are easily preventable, but only if caught early), the doctor played hard ball and called in DFS (Division of Family Services) who basically told her she had to allow the baby to be tested or else.
The woman was about ready to grab the baby and run out of the hospital. Finally she agreed to allow me to fill only 1 circle on the PKU test card. One. One is not enough to adequately do the test.
I told the doctor that she (doctor) had to stay in the room with me because I didn't want this woman coming back and saying that I hurt her baby.
The whole time I'm collecting the blood, the mother is screaming at me, calling me a 'butcher' and a 'horrible, cruel person' and how I 'shouldn't be allowed near helpless babies.'
I hope for the parents' sake that none of their children ever get sick. I imagine though if they keep their children sequestered away from society, the kids will not only never build up an immune system so they'll catch every random virus and bacteria that comes their way, but they'll also grow up with their parents' extreme beliefs.
Sometimes I really fucking hated healthcare.
============
You, torturer of small babies, shall pay in the afterlife by having your heel jabbed by large axes dipped in Shlongy poo.
:)
Submitted by MyTeeOne (user info) at 2008-03-26 18:16:39 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
It's sad this girl is dead.
Is it also sad I laughed out loud at several parts of this story?
Submitted by HadToBeDone (user info) at 2008-03-26 14:08:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by skrapmetal (user info) at 2008-03-26 12:13:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by SgtHartman (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:19:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:18:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Re: below - The difference between having faith in God and having faith in medical science is that medical science has been empirically shown to save lives on countless occasions.
=================
WIN!!!!
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I agree with Jeanneee. One cannot dispute the successes medical science has accrued. However, I doubt there are too many doctors/healthcare staff that would argue with the assertion that a patient's willingness to see the treatments as a necessary and positive step toward recovery is important and sometimes vital in treating serious illness. In most cases the patient doesn't understand the science behind the treatment that's being given them, and neither do their families. That willingness to believe in an outcome without understanding of the mechanism of attaining that outcome is the very definition of faith. That science works or not (and I certainly agree that it does) is beyond the subject of the post.
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See placebo effect.
Submitted by InkyFingers (user info) at 2008-03-26 12:33:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by X54 (user info) at 2008-03-26 12:33:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"Do-gooding is like treating hemophilia: the real cure is to let hemophiliacs bleed to death--before they breed more hemophiliacs." -Robert Heinlein
Submitted by skrapmetal (user info) at 2008-03-26 12:13:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by SgtHartman (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:19:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:18:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Re: below - The difference between having faith in God and having faith in medical science is that medical science has been empirically shown to save lives on countless occasions.
=================
WIN!!!!
-----
I agree with Jeanneee. One cannot dispute the successes medical science has accrued. However, I doubt there are too many doctors/healthcare staff that would argue with the assertion that a patient's willingness to see the treatments as a necessary and positive step toward recovery is important and sometimes vital in treating serious illness. In most cases the patient doesn't understand the science behind the treatment that's being given them, and neither do their families. That willingness to believe in an outcome without understanding of the mechanism of attaining that outcome is the very definition of faith. That science works or not (and I certainly agree that it does) is beyond the subject of the post.
Submitted by sexualchocolate1984 (user info) at 2008-03-26 11:52:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
hahaha "In a heartbeat" - she wishes she had one of those!
Or some sane parents!
Jebus is an ancient zombie and he's not coming to save you.
Submitted by The_Drake (user info) at 2008-03-26 11:18:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
because i can't spell......or punctuate
Submitted by The_Drake (user info) at 2008-03-26 11:18:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I'm not even gonna touch this one. Theological debates are soooo last millenia.
Submitted by Sacrilicious (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:52:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm agnostic, but to have blind faith in the fact that God WILL perform a medical miracle in response to every prayer is not the average Christian's belief. Extremism on either side doesn't much help to encourage a peaceful dialogue.
Submitted by F.J.Bell (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:48:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"It seems to me that Islam and Christianity and Judaism all have the same god, and he's telling them all different things."
Submitted by ilikesteak (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:34:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Nontraditional medicine and "spiritual" healing have proven advantages, and can be highly effective, and are well documented.
I'd have put my money on medicine this time, because I've only got fewer variables working against me, the primary two being the medicine not working, and poor treatment in the hospital.
This way I'm not actually betting against the problem, rather betting on a proven solution.
Submitted by celtic1888 (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:26:02 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by SgtHartman (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:19:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:18:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Re: below - The difference between having faith in God and having faith in medical science is that medical science has been empirically shown to save lives on countless occasions.
=================
WIN!!!!
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:18:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Re: below - The difference between having faith in God and having faith in medical science is that medical science has been empirically shown to save lives on countless occasions.
Submitted by forensicgirl3 (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:14:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
This was several years ago when I still worked in a hospital, but there was a family that upset me quite a bit.
They had 3 children and were very suspicious of modern medicine and highly paranoid and struck me as the type that believe conspiracy theories.
Why they even bothered to come to a hospital to see a doctor, I don't know.
They were constantly battling the doctors when it came to what treatments and preventative care they would allow for their children. The mother especially was adamant against required innoculations. Oh yes, the kids were home schooled.
They had recently had a new baby. PKU (Phenylketonuria) screenings are required by the state of Missouri. Simple test really, I just pricked a baby's heel with a lancet (specially designed for neonates), used a glass capillary tube which I held against the puncture site, and filled in 5 circles on a test card with samples of the baby's blood. We did hundreds of them a year.
When they brought the baby in for its first check up and the mother was told to take her baby to lab so we could do a PKU test, she freaked out and started yelling at all of us. She called the doctor 'evil' and said those of us in lab were 'butchers.'
That pissed me off.
Since it was a state required test (PKU complications are easily preventable, but only if caught early), the doctor played hard ball and called in DFS (Division of Family Services) who basically told her she had to allow the baby to be tested or else.
The woman was about ready to grab the baby and run out of the hospital. Finally she agreed to allow me to fill only 1 circle on the PKU test card. One. One is not enough to adequately do the test.
I told the doctor that she (doctor) had to stay in the room with me because I didn't want this woman coming back and saying that I hurt her baby.
The whole time I'm collecting the blood, the mother is screaming at me, calling me a 'butcher' and a 'horrible, cruel person' and how I 'shouldn't be allowed near helpless babies.'
I hope for the parents' sake that none of their children ever get sick. I imagine though if they keep their children sequestered away from society, the kids will not only never build up an immune system so they'll catch every random virus and bacteria that comes their way, but they'll also grow up with their parents' extreme beliefs.
Sometimes I really fucking hated healthcare.
Submitted by HadToBeDone (user info) at 2008-03-26 10:02:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by skrapmetal (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:52:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"...when proven medical intervention would have without a doubt saved her life in a heartbeat."
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That sentence proves that you also have faith, but yours lies in medical science. People under medical care die every day and you know doubt are aware of that, and yet you blindly believe that the girl's life could have been saved by medical intervention. Your problem is not with faith, but with God.
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Win.
Submitted by skrapmetal (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:53:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
*no* doubt, not 'know' doubt.
Submitted by skrapmetal (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:52:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"...when proven medical intervention would have without a doubt saved her life in a heartbeat."
-----
That sentence proves that you also have faith, but yours lies in medical science. People under medical care die every day and you know doubt are aware of that, and yet you blindly believe that the girl's life could have been saved by medical intervention. Your problem is not with faith, but with God.
Submitted by czwij (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:48:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
just being named leilani should be a criminal offence.
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:48:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
also, using extreme examples does not lend support to an argument.
these people are clearly extreme but there are plenty of level headed Christians that use hospitals and such.
these people are no more screwballed than an atheist that over medicates or the agnostic hypochondriac
Submitted by SgtHartman (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:48:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
fuck 'em and everyone who looks like them.
Submitted by HadToBeDone (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:46:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by 8bithero (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:42:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
My favorite part?
"The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said."
Mindboggling on a cosmic fucking level. Other than the "reported" resurrection of Jesus (with no other account outside of the Bible),
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Don't forget Lazarus twice.
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:45:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
again...this is not news....people are fucking whackjobs I think that's been covered.
Submitted by 8bithero (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:43:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:41:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't get what this has to do with CT, but those people should be locked up. The sad thing is, if they were adoptive parents, they almost certainly would be.
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He made a some comment about his faith because of possession. I assumed that meant he/she believed all aspects of faith to be true.
If I was wrong, I'm sorry.
Submitted by Yozz (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:43:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
My needle seems to be skipping.
Submitted by 8bithero (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:42:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
My favorite part?
"The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said."
Mindboggling on a cosmic fucking level. Other than the "reported" resurrection of Jesus (with no other account outside of the Bible), no being in all of history has ever been resurrected from true, absolute, clinical death.
What's that one saying? Prayer in one hand, shit in the other...
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:41:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't get what this has to do with CT, but those people should be locked up. The sad thing is, if they were adoptive parents, they almost certainly would be.
Submitted by Yozz (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:39:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Dale and Leilani Neumann - #5 & #6.
Submitted by Yozz (user info) at 2008-03-26 09:38:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Dale and Leilani Neumann - #5 & #6.