God Before the Children (806 hits)
Category: NewsRating: 1.01 on 33 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by kaos-king (antius777) (View user info) at 2008-04-06 22:29:08 EDT
For anyone who hasn't heard, we have yet another group of religious nut-jobs in America.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/04/children-remove.html
http://www.whas11.com/topstories/stories/040608whasckTopPolygomy.3b811099.html
Here's the story...
The authorities received reports of a female minor being abused at a compound in Texas. Their investigation led them to to some alarming discoveries. It would seem that the "Fundamentalist Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints" had been arranging polygamist marriages among their male followers with multiple underage girls. Over 200 young women and children were removed from the Eldorado, Texas compound on Friday, April 4th - but the 16 year old girl who sparked the inquiry was not among them. Supposedly she had been married off to a 50 year old man and had already given birth to his child.
This "gentleman," old enough to be his new wife's grandfather, named Dale Barlow is already a registered Sex Offender. He pleaded 'no contest' last year for the conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. (Barlow swears he doesn't even know who this girl is.) Of course, he's doing slightly better than the leader of the group, Warren Jeffs. Jeffs is jailed in Kingman, Ariz., where he awaits trial for four counts each of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives. In November, he was sentenced to two consecutive sentences of five years to life in prison in Utah for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who wed her cousin in an arranged marriage in 2001.
This is still going on in America? What. The. Fuck.
It's no secret that I have a great distaste for organized religion. That being said, I'll never deny a man his faith. However, how far does that faith extend? American Social Services remove children from homes and parents where there is evidence of physical & sexual abuse as well as neglect. Why are these things allowed under the cover of religion? A parent whose child has been hit by a car and simply stands by to watch the child die would be prosecuted. Yet, the parent who refuses medical aid in place of prayer is untouchable.
There is now talk about the validity of the original girl's existence. Some claim she was invented merely to spearhead a raid on the compound. If so, is that truly a "Bad Thing?" How many young women and children were saved from a life of sexual slavery in the name of god? Even more sinister are the accusations that this girl really DOES exist, but has been hidden or killed by the church to protect itself.
Mostly this comes down to Parental Rights. But what of the rights of the child? Because this human pays no taxes and can not vote, is it not protected the same as elder citizens? At what point must things degrade before we can admit that a parent is unjust to to care for the welfare of a child? And when will we as a modern society no longer allow religion be used as a defense for cruelty towards these children?
User Reviews
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2008-04-08 22:52:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
You don't get it do you?
I don't care what flavour of madness you have. Catholic, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Mormon it's all the same.
Even if you have a vague 'spiritualism'. If you BELIEVE that there is life after death, or the universe was 'created' then you are insane.
Completely bonkers.
If you people didn't cause so much hate and trouble it would be funny.
Submitted by AsshOly (user info) at 2008-04-08 08:37:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2008-04-07 16:41:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by AsshOly (user info) at 2008-04-07 01:17:27 CDT (#)
Ranking: 1
apollo, you dont really know what youre talking about. im sure youll tell me im wrong, but you still dont. whoever reviewed right after you also knows nothing.
You believe in God ( a fictional mythical creature in the sky), ergo you are mentally ill. Cunts like you have had the whole of human history to prey on our fears and ignorance and trade on our desire to live beyond death or at the very least see our loved ones again.
Times have changed, you are anachronism and within the next 200 years with any luck this nonsense will be forgotten.
How typical by the way of religious people "apollo, you dont really know what youre talking about. im sure youll tell me im wrong, but you still dont. whoever reviewed right after you also knows nothing." It's the intellectual equivilant of putting your fingers in your ears, eyes scrunched tight yelling 'god is good nah nah don't care what you say'
You don't want to talk about it, you don't care. You have your delusion and you're comfortable in it. Sure it's an empty, blinkered, false comfort based on a viscious and dangerous lie, but whatever.
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you dont have any clue what i believe in. you dont know what church im a part of and every church is different. one reason these stupid blanket generalizations are so problematic is because you want to corner me and paint me as such and such, but you are too far out of range to even come close to hitting me with that shit. you say i believe in a mythical creature in the sky -- says who? i believe in something greater than myself, and i dont know what that is. wooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaah, far fucking out, right? i believe it's something we're supposed to figure out when we die. if im wrong, so the fuck what? im dead, blammo, end of story, and i dont get the choice to be upset over my life decisions. no regrets, and i havent ever been real concerned with how anybody else would feel if i died.
you sound like somebody who's been embittered by a lack of spiritual fulfillment. did somebody die on you before you were ready? did god let you down? do you feel the pain every day that christians promised you would go away? was your pain the cause of your pessimistic attitude toward a reunion with your loved ones, and the empty feeling inside your soul the proof that our dearly departed dont live on within us? i dont give a shit. take a toughen up pill and get over it. nobody is preying on your fucking ass. nobody here is telling you to pick up a bible or wear a cross around your neck. to tell you the truth, i couldnt give a shit what you believe in -- but maybe that's what makes "us" and "you" different. you can sit here and snipe at me all you want, but think about this on a basic level: what makes you, a proactive atheist, and Billy Graham the evangelist crusader extraordinaire, so different? because i can tell you right now, i'm not like you and im not like him, both for the same reasons. you've both got all the answers, man, nobody can teach you nothin.
and while religion causes problems in the world, atheism hasn't ever cured them. getting back to the central point here, religion has nothing to do with raping kids. it is a convenient crutch for the people who do it -- nothing more. you can bitch and lament and rail against the church all you want, but since you have no idea how the church as a global entity even works, you are just putting meaningless words on your computer screen and, though they sound fantastic in your head, people in better touch with reality see right through to your antagonistic ignorance.
Submitted by sideshow (user info) at 2008-04-07 18:48:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I have no problem with people holding their beliefs and praying and leading good lives and doing whatever they want, as long as it doesn't affect anyone else. My mother prays fairly often, she prays for those less fortunate than her, she prays for all the kids that plays sports with my brother, she prays for the kids on the other teams, she prays for everyone she knows. I don't think there is a problem with that, as she doesn't force her beliefs or prayers on anyone. If I prayed for you right now, you would never know that I did, and it would not be a problem.
However, some of these religious fanatics are doing things that they believe to be right, but they are doing it at cost of the lives of other humans. I think that is where it crosses the line, where it is no longer just about a personal belief, it is something that is being forced on someone.
I do not believe that the 14 or 16 year old girl wanted to marry a 50 year old man, fuck him, and have his child. I doubt she was attracted to him at all. These teenage girls marrying there uncles or whatever, that is just sick. That is not religion anymore, that is oppresion.
If what you are doing affects you and only you, go ahead and do it. Do heroin, do drugs, have sex, drink, kill yourself, masturbate to pictures on Uber, whatever. But don't make me or anyone else do it, especially against our will.
If only people could follow a simple guideline, our world would be so much better. Treat others the way you wish to be treated. I certainly wouldn't want my 14 or 15 year old daughter being forced to marry some old guy, so if you were an old guy, wouldn't you think about that before you married the young girl, and had sex with her against her will?
There is a lot of craziness going on in the world today, but this is plain ridiculous. Arranged marriages?
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2008-04-07 16:41:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by AsshOly (user info) at 2008-04-07 01:17:27 CDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:14:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Oly - - No, you're absolutely right in many of your remarks. It's true that not all religious people are insane, and that when religious folk DO do something fucked up, it gets more attention. That's not really the point I'm trying to make here - It's more about Children's Rights being tossed out the window to accomidate the religious practices of the parents.
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well that i certainly agree with. it's just that when people see these things, they make that automatic connection between religion and all things bad and evil. it irritates me to no end because the fact of the matter is when people see that it's obvious they've never actually been in a church by their own will.
and the opening lines saying something like "hey, another fucked up religious organization! now it is a well documented fact that i dislike religion," dont really help things much. you get people automatically geared to start thinking, ha! they fucked up again! wont those fuckers ever do anything right! no because god doesnt exist! boy im glad i dont believe in god!
what's really funny about this is most of the people who tell me im a horrible person for believing in god also hate faggots and niggers. and then the gay guys tell me how horrible a person i am for believing in god when god condemns them to hell for sucking dick without even asking me if i think that's true.
not that i feel discriminated against, or anything. i just realized that might be what i sound like. i dont feel like i got the shit end of the stick on this or anything, but considering people tell me smarmy shit like, "i dont believe in god; im sane" you would assume they had ever taken the time to learn about other people's beliefs. you would also assume they would be ready to get punched in the nose but apparently christian people dont know how to fight because all we do is read from the bible all day long and take communion.
and in general, people who believe in god dont bother anybody else about it. its a small percentage who do, but at least you might be able to understand why they are the way they are, even if theyre hypnotized or brainwashed or something. proactive atheism is the most fucking asinine thing i've ever heard of.
apollo, you dont really know what youre talking about. im sure youll tell me im wrong, but you still dont. whoever reviewed right after you also knows nothing.
You believe in God ( a fictional mythical creature in the sky), ergo you are mentally ill. Cunts like you have had the whole of human history to prey on our fears and ignorance and trade on our desire to live beyond death or at the very least see our loved ones again.
Times have changed, you are anachronism and within the next 200 years with any luck this nonsense will be forgotten.
How typical by the way of religious people "apollo, you dont really know what youre talking about. im sure youll tell me im wrong, but you still dont. whoever reviewed right after you also knows nothing." It's the intellectual equivilant of putting your fingers in your ears, eyes scrunched tight yelling 'god is good nah nah don't care what you say'
You don't want to talk about it, you don't care. You have your delusion and you're comfortable in it. Sure it's an empty, blinkered, false comfort based on a viscious and dangerous lie, but whatever.
Submitted by orphelia (user info) at 2008-04-07 12:48:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
These kind of stories make me sad.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2008-04-07 12:42:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Assh0ly makes excellent points. Shitty things done by bad people under the guise of religion shouldn't be blamed on the religion. There is neither time nor space here for a full treatment of the subject.
Submitted by wookie (user info) at 2008-04-07 11:35:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by Jack_McCallum (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:12:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Read 'Under the Banner of Heaven.' It was written by Jon Krakauer, who also wrote 'Into the Wild,' an excellent book that has been made into a movie.
http://www.amazon.com/Under-Banner-Heaven-Jon-Krakauer/dp/0330419129/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207537540&sr=8-1
Banner is a real eye-opener, both a history of the Mormons and a lot of first-hand testimony from women forced into polygamous marriages.
=====================================================
Was just about to recommend "Under the Banner of Heaven" as well.
Reading that book made me realize Krakauer isn't just a great outdoor/nature writer, he's a great writer period (definitely read "Into Thin Air" if you haven't yet).
And "Under the Banner..." is, indeed, a REAL eye-opener.
Submitted by monkeyswithguns (user info) at 2008-04-07 11:33:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
This is kinda old news. They'd been chasing that Jeffs guy down for almost a year, and they caught him several months ago near Canada driving around with two of his followers.
Still pretty fucked up though.
Submitted by shadow (user info) at 2008-04-07 10:42:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by corn_nugget (user info) at 2008-04-07 09:30:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
No Comment
Submitted by guitarcries (user info) at 2008-04-07 09:03:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
No Comment
Submitted by MudWhistle (user info) at 2008-04-07 08:15:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
I don't know why you associate with those of us beneath you
Submitted by EmissionImpossible (user info) at 2008-04-07 07:19:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
ooops indeed, now go and mop the floor.
Submitted by Anansie (user info) at 2008-04-07 07:17:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Oops.
Submitted by Anansie (user info) at 2008-04-07 07:17:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:51:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
from the little old lady who helps clean the church to these nutters, they are all being taken advantage of by a religious heirarchy.
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My grandma is that little old lady. 81 years old and they still ask her to do shit all the time. Let the woman rest, I say.
Weep, etc.
Submitted by Bigmike (user info) at 2008-04-07 06:49:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
"It's no secret that I have a great distaste for organized religion. That being said, I'll never deny a man his faith. However, how far does that faith extend?"
Evidently that faith extends as far as it takes to reach a 14 year olds vagina.
All pedophiles must die.
Submitted by AsshOly (user info) at 2008-04-07 02:17:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:14:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Oly - - No, you're absolutely right in many of your remarks. It's true that not all religious people are insane, and that when religious folk DO do something fucked up, it gets more attention. That's not really the point I'm trying to make here - It's more about Children's Rights being tossed out the window to accomidate the religious practices of the parents.
---------
well that i certainly agree with. it's just that when people see these things, they make that automatic connection between religion and all things bad and evil. it irritates me to no end because the fact of the matter is when people see that it's obvious they've never actually been in a church by their own will.
and the opening lines saying something like "hey, another fucked up religious organization! now it is a well documented fact that i dislike religion," dont really help things much. you get people automatically geared to start thinking, ha! they fucked up again! wont those fuckers ever do anything right! no because god doesnt exist! boy im glad i dont believe in god!
what's really funny about this is most of the people who tell me im a horrible person for believing in god also hate faggots and niggers. and then the gay guys tell me how horrible a person i am for believing in god when god condemns them to hell for sucking dick without even asking me if i think that's true.
not that i feel discriminated against, or anything. i just realized that might be what i sound like. i dont feel like i got the shit end of the stick on this or anything, but considering people tell me smarmy shit like, "i dont believe in god; im sane" you would assume they had ever taken the time to learn about other people's beliefs. you would also assume they would be ready to get punched in the nose but apparently christian people dont know how to fight because all we do is read from the bible all day long and take communion.
and in general, people who believe in god dont bother anybody else about it. its a small percentage who do, but at least you might be able to understand why they are the way they are, even if theyre hypnotized or brainwashed or something. proactive atheism is the most fucking asinine thing i've ever heard of.
apollo, you dont really know what youre talking about. im sure youll tell me im wrong, but you still dont. whoever reviewed right after you also knows nothing.
Submitted by HadToBeDone (user info) at 2008-04-07 00:16:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I love posts like this because it brings out all the enlightened masses to lambast the weak-minded and idiots for believing in something greater than themselves.
I love our enlightened society.
Submitted by BeforeEmily (user info) at 2008-04-07 00:16:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Yet, the parent who refuses medical aid in place of prayer is untouchable.
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Actually not true. Medically speaking, children have the same rights as adults and it is perfectly commonplace for the legal system to step in when it's in the best interest of the child.
Submitted by BeforeEmily (user info) at 2008-04-07 00:12:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
it has everything to do with religion.
from the little old lady who helps clean the church to these nutters, they are all being taken advantage of by a religious heirarchy.
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and the fact that people put their trust in priests and all. Nobody's expected to trust the redneck that lives down river.
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:51:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by AsshOly (user info) at 2008-04-06 22:08:22 CDT (#)
Ranking: 0
you know, im pretty tired of hearing that people being fucking whacked out has anything to do with religion. maybe these people are just sick and the "church" is an easy scapegoat. if it means they get to fuck their prepubescent cousins, they'll go to church on sundays.
not everybody who believes in god fucks children. i will concede religion being a crutch to the stupid and ignorant, but you cant hold everybody else at fault for their low IQ. if those people didnt do these things through the church then they would do it through something else. its just easier this way because church is the town water cooler and you can mobilize a force of fucking idiots with all your idiot friends. but the sane guy in the front row who has been happily married for 50 years and never drank because he liked to keep his head clear gets no credit anymore. i'd like to say fuck you for that.
lots of people fuck their cousins and dont get publicity because they're just dumb rednecks and arent connected to anything else that is noteworthy besides the fact that they live down the creek from one another. (i bet some of them are atheists!!!! omg!!! atheists are child molesters!!!) but it's news when it's a priest or some fuckheaded psycho in arizona, it's a chance for people to rail against religion.
just cut it out with the vendetta and get to the real issue - these guys are creeps. it has nothing to do with religion.
it has everything to do with religion.
from the little old lady who helps clean the church to these nutters, they are all being taken advantage of by a religious heirarchy.
Submitted by ilikesteak (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:31:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:06:39 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Personally, I abhor the concept of organized religion.
I think faith should be a personal, private thing. Whatever - that's not really the point.
Forcing a child to be raised in a particular faith already raises some issues of parental nurturing VS Children's Rights.
However, it's when those religious beliefs blanket the basic laws we've established as a society and are unquestionable harmful to the children by the average cultural standard, that I think we need to step in.
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The problem of being without organized faith is, the average person would't have anyone to turn to when they have questions about how to interpret their book, have anyone to ask for direction on how to live a good life, or know what to do if they start to lose the faith. That's why it exists, to protect the weak, simple minded, and fearful masses.
What your real problem seems to be with, is the way organized religion is run, and things done in the name of religion. The difference only seems to be in semantics, but it still applies.
Religious beliefs have always blanketed our laws, in that they were based on religious beliefs, but there has always been enough seperation to make them seperate. When you get too close, religion is oppressing society, but when you get too far, society is oppressing religion. It's always been like this, and always will be.
I'm apathetic, so it all amuses me, but I do occasionally want to unsee a few things I've seen.
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:14:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Hadley - - no shit? I thought they were all simply being allowed to go. None of the articles I read spoke of any legal actions being taken.
Oly - - No, you're absolutely right in many of your remarks. It's true that not all religious people are insane, and that when religious folk DO do something fucked up, it gets more attention. That's not really the point I'm trying to make here - It's more about Children's Rights being tossed out the window to accomidate the religious practices of the parents.
Submitted by Jack_McCallum (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:12:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Read 'Under the Banner of Heaven.' It was written by Jon Krakauer, who also wrote 'Into the Wild,' an excellent book that has been made into a movie.
http://www.amazon.com/Under-Banner-Heaven-Jon-Krakauer/dp/0330419129/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207537540&sr=8-1
Banner is a real eye-opener, both a history of the Mormons and a lot of first-hand testimony from women forced into polygamous marriages.
After that, read 'Shot in the Heart,' by Mikal Gilmore, brother of Gary 'Let's do it" Gilmore. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gilmore
http://www.amazon.com/Shot-Heart-Mikal-Gilmore/dp/0385478003/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207537708&sr=1-1
Then read the Book of Mormon. I just misspelled it as Book of Moron. Not much of a typo. Honestly, it is one of the funniest things you'll ever read. It's really fucked up.
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:08:29 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Loki... what???
Living underground in Russia? What did I miss this time? Are they mutant zombies??? Please tell me they're mutant zombies!!!
Submitted by AsshOly (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:08:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
you know, im pretty tired of hearing that people being fucking whacked out has anything to do with religion. maybe these people are just sick and the "church" is an easy scapegoat. if it means they get to fuck their prepubescent cousins, they'll go to church on sundays.
not everybody who believes in god fucks children. i will concede religion being a crutch to the stupid and ignorant, but you cant hold everybody else at fault for their low IQ. if those people didnt do these things through the church then they would do it through something else. its just easier this way because church is the town water cooler and you can mobilize a force of fucking idiots with all your idiot friends. but the sane guy in the front row who has been happily married for 50 years and never drank because he liked to keep his head clear gets no credit anymore. i'd like to say fuck you for that.
lots of people fuck their cousins and dont get publicity because they're just dumb rednecks and arent connected to anything else that is noteworthy besides the fact that they live down the creek from one another. (i bet some of them are atheists!!!! omg!!! atheists are child molesters!!!) but it's news when it's a priest or some fuckheaded psycho in arizona, it's a chance for people to rail against religion.
just cut it out with the vendetta and get to the real issue - these guys are creeps. it has nothing to do with religion.
Submitted by experima (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:07:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
ick.
Submitted by HadToBeDone (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:07:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2008-04-06 22:52:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I just wonder how much criminal shit the average American can get away with as long as they claim it's "part of their religion."
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Much less than this, apparently, since they are being convicted and sent to prison.
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:06:39 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Personally, I abhor the concept of organized religion.
I think faith should be a personal, private thing. Whatever - that's not really the point.
Forcing a child to be raised in a particular faith already raises some issues of parental nurturing VS Children's Rights.
However, it's when those religious beliefs blanket the basic laws we've established as a society and are unquestionable harmful to the children by the average cultural standard, that I think we need to step in.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2008-04-06 23:01:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
what a fucking mess
I swear I can't get my friends to help me paint the damn kitchen and this sort of thing is going on. I mean between this and the whole living underground in Russia, unfuckingreal.
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2008-04-06 22:59:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
hopefully there will be a cure for the mental illness known as 'religion' soon.
I suspect it will roughly coincide with the addiction drug.
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2008-04-06 22:52:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I just wonder how much criminal shit the average American can get away with as long as they claim it's "part of their religion."
Submitted by ilikesteak (user info) at 2008-04-06 22:49:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
It wouldn't work.
As much good as it would do, it cannot possibly outweigh the system in place. Organized religion keeps the stupid masses calm, as does their poor concept of what rights they think they have.
Once a government can override one established and communally recognized religion, they can override all of them.
It ends up in a faster downward spiral of the people who live under it's rule.
It's a shame, too, because it'd be nice for the government to do something for once, although I really doubt they'd get it right.