Bush 1. Anti-War hippies 0. (1161 hits)
Category: Politics -> IraqRating: -0.86 on 61 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by <b.at.myself.off> (View user info) at 2003-12-15 13:45:50 EST
I decided to jump onto this bandwagon early, as you tend to get a lot of flak from people who consider bringing up controversial topics late in the piece 'hit-whoring'.
It is my contention that the capture of Saddam Hussein will provide the United States with a Trophy to take to the Iraqi people, and assert to them that they are now free.
The Iraqis living in Iraq are far from free at present. They still live in a military state and are not yet able to vote or protest openly. The United States military asserts that this will be necessary for some time due to the poitically volatile nature of this country. I offer no opinion on this stance as I am not a military general, and refuse to pretend that I can tell Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez how to do his job. I will only say that the Iraqis need a political outlet.
In my opinion, the best way to give the people of Iraq an outlet, without rushing the progress to democracy, would be a public trial of Saddam for his war crimes. Such a trial would show the Iraqis that their former oppressor had been deposed, and that a short time spent under a new one will yield democracy. Those hopelessly lost in their hatred of all thing related to George W. Bush have said in the past, that his failure to capture any war criminals or terrorist leaders makes him a failure to his cause. These same people have already began down playing the signifigance of Hussein's capture, saying that it makes no difference in the scheme of things. The capture of Saddam is only symbolic. He lost all direct power the day Baghdad fell to Coalition forces. His capture only represents that his reign has come to an end for good.
The other side of the coin is what the capture of Saddam means to the free world. George W. Bush has already dispensed with his usual spiel, something to the effect of "All enemies of democracy are evil and will be punished." Such statements have become old and tired, but with the most recent events in Iraq, these words take on a far more relevent meaning. Finding Saddam debunks the critics who cited the importance of Hussein being brought to justice as a reason for Bush's failure. It has now been made clear that George Bush can reach a set goal. Now that the former dictator can be brought to stand trial for his war crimes, I predict a surge of support behind George W. Bush.
The capture of Saddam Hussein is undeniably relevant to the future of Iraq and the Bush administration, as he symbolizes the oppression that the Coalition went into Iraq to destroy.
User Reviews
Submitted by youarsoghey (user info) at 2004-01-14 12:33:55 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
"Submitted by Tastycat (user info) at 2003-12-17 00:03:12 (#)
Ranking: -2
I enjoy living in Canada so much more now that Bush took power. We don't fuck anything up, and our gas prices still go down. Hows that for fucking free trade, eh?"
I guess gas prices are the tell-all sign of an economy. U.S. and Canada share something for each other known as interdependence. Canada depends on our economy more than we depend on their's.
"Unfortunately, Canadians are content to continue smugly looking down their noses at Americans, participating in the national pastime of hating "Americanism"; content to continue bragging about having universal healthcare while that very system is becoming the virtual equivalent of the death penalty, and content to suffer cruel levels of taxation and an ever declining standard of living."
- Adam Young
A bit overly conservative, but meh.
Submitted by Gillespie (user info) at 2004-01-14 11:54:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I'll second Loki's "stop fighting and hold hands" comment. Fighting sucks. And there is something seriously unnerving knowing that if I die over here it won't probably even be from combat, it'll be from some indirect fire on my tent or something else equally random.
-J
Submitted by slyphter (user info) at 2003-12-17 10:12:49 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
*coughcoughOSAMAcoughcough*
excuse me.
Submitted by Tastycat (user info) at 2003-12-17 00:03:12 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I enjoy living in Canada so much more now that Bush took power. We don't fuck anything up, and our gas prices still go down. Hows that for fucking free trade, eh?
Submitted by Ingsoc (user info) at 2003-12-16 17:29:10 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
No Comment
Submitted by jimbo (user info) at 2003-12-16 17:15:24 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I just had a König Ludwig.
Clowns just attacked and ate a group of toddlers in the park across from my house.
Frodo and Samwise have been dead these many years.
Monkeys can't surf in Indiana.
Submitted by Random Joe at 2003-12-16 16:19:58 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
HOLY FUCK. By HOLY FUCK, I mean "Do you have any idea what the fuck you are talking about?"
By that, I mean SHUT THE FUCK UP. I love me. I hate you.
Submitted by Random Joe at 2003-12-16 15:59:22 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
No Comment
Submitted by Anton at 2003-12-16 13:22:07 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Screw that. Why were we there in the first place? Sounds like another Vietnam to me, but this time we aren't losing. People suffer all over the world, what makes Iraq special?
Submitted by JoeAverage (user info) at 2003-12-16 13:15:14 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
+2 just for the title.
Submitted by Fartknocker (user info) at 2003-12-16 13:06:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"The capture of Saddam Hussein is undeniably relevant to the future of Iraq and the Bush administration, as he symbolizes the oppression that the Coalition went into Iraq to destroy. "
-This was a side effect
I don't like men with mustaches, though, so thumbs up for the american warmongers
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-12-16 08:49:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I have no comment, the ole boy looks kind of buff here though doesn't he?
http://store1.yimg.com/I/herobuilders_1772_44513
Submitted by antluvdog (user info) at 2003-12-16 08:42:54 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
What does this have to do with anti-war hippies?
Submitted by jimbo (user info) at 2003-12-16 08:14:28 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
König Ludwig Weiss Bier rules.
Clowns eat children when people aren't looking.
Frodo and Samwise were pretty badass for such small folk.
Surf the monkey.
Submitted by Jericho (user info) at 2003-12-16 07:51:29 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
"It is important to capture Osama for the same reason it was important to capture Saddam. Symbolism. The liberation of Iraq took away Osama's power, by making him the winner. Osama achived his goal of removing the americans from the holyland. Now his fellow terrorist will see no reason to fight anylonger. As I said, I have no illusions that Osama will really stop trying to attack the US. But taking away his motivation has to deal a blow to his cause."
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What the fuck are you talking about? Your little history lesson was a crock of shit too. What holy land are you talking about? Saudi Arabia?
Perhaps you are refering to the cities of Mecca and Medina?
Osama bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia. The reason he now hates them so much is because he and other extremist muslims regard the royal house of Saud as being a decadent and corrupt regime that is supported solely by US interests.
Your also forgetting that Osama bin Laden hated Saddam Hussein with a passion. Saddam Hussein was a western style dictator who actively suppressed religious extremism as it would have been a threat to his power. So now instead of a military dictatorship, there is an essentially lawless state with an active western military deployment. Perfect ground for religious extremist recruitment and guerrilla activity.
You have the most basic understanding of this situation that I have ever come across. Do some reading for christs sake and stop basing your views on CNN and conjecture.
Submitted by Persecuted (user info) at 2003-12-16 07:24:23 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Why is this on the most heated list? I want it to die.
DIE POST! DIE!
Submitted by Scott_James (user info) at 2003-12-16 02:18:54 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
D'oh! You go squish now!
Submitted by Hairsphincter (user info) at 2003-12-15 23:59:51 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I don't know where to start with you.
Boo.
Submitted by DJMattB241 (user info) at 2003-12-15 23:40:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
kickin ass and takin names.
no matter what bush does, no ones going to change their opinions.
if bin laden ended up in chains tomorrow, the bush haters who today are saying "oh, now where is bin laden?" will now be saying "the war was for oil!" and if we remove all support from iraq after setting them up so its not an anarchy then they will say "oh but... he cant speak well", and if he gets rid of his southern accent and never makes another grammatical mistake they will say "oh, but he um.... he um.... he looks funny!"
and so on.
Submitted by Persecuted (user info) at 2003-12-15 23:24:33 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
They shouldn't let Saddam be tried by the Iraqis nor the Iranians, or Kuwaitis but by somebody who would be less biased maybe somebody who didn't have a family member killed by him or his goons, you know set a good precedent and get away from that whole revenge "you kill one of mine I kill one of yours" mindset that only leads to more terrorism.
When Saddam dose go on trial and if, by if I mean will, he is found guilty will it have any unforeseen repercussions, a big loss of international credibility or perhaps a little slap on the wrist, for the American government, for aiding Saddam and giving him the thumbs up the whole time he was committing these crimes?
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I like this idea, however, since the former nazis that were captured after the Nuremburg trials were tried in Israel, I doubt it will be well recieved.
Submitted by DarthAwesome (user info) at 2003-12-15 18:52:28 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I have the answer, make me your unquestionable ruler. I will do whatever I want and because you have no say in it at all, you won't care. Badda Bing Badda Boom, I'm happy, you're happy, we are all happy people. Plus I will make S'more PopTarts our the main entree during national food day, which will be a new holiday that comes after Classical Rock day, which is also a new holiday I will make.
Yep, things are lookin pretty good.
Submitted by TwEE (user info) at 2003-12-15 16:53:31 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
They gonna hang Saddam, "cause lord loves a hanging, thats why he gave us necks, tightens up our vocal cords and loosens up are pecks" or maybe not. And now I will go completely off topic, but not really.
They shouldn't let Saddam be tried by the Iraqis nor the Iranians, or Kuwaitis but by somebody who would be less biased maybe somebody who didn't have a family member killed by him or his goons, you know set a good precedent and get away from that whole revenge "you kill one of mine I kill one of yours" mindset that only leads to more terrorism.
When Saddam dose go on trial and if, by if I mean will, he is found guilty will it have any unforeseen repercussions, a big loss of international credibility or perhaps a little slap on the wrist, for the American government, for aiding Saddam and giving him the thumbs up the whole time he was committing these crimes?
Submitted by Random Joe at 2003-12-15 15:52:14 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
Fart?
Submitted by reallybored (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:34:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Although - I don't think "hundreds" of soldiers are dying every day.
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My typing and logic has been piss poor today and im verra verra sorry. Damn txyankee and his muscle relaxtor pills.
I meant Hundreds of soliders have dyed. And they are dying everday.
Loki you better come to the next meet, i want to see if you can knock me out with one roundhouse kick.
Submitted by Deisangua (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:32:14 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Exactly as reallybored put it. To the letter.
Submitted by WeAre138 (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:30:39 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
No Comment
Submitted by BuckeyesTHEGAME (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:28:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I hate Random Joe.
Also, just because people are against the war, that doesn't make them hippies.
Submitted by Tom (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:27:14 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
But I don't. I don't feel that your argument is very well informed......or something.
-Tom
Submitted by I'm another Random Joe! at 2003-12-15 15:26:20 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I can be wimpy, log in as a "Random Joe" and say mean stuff too!
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:22:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Although - I don't think "hundreds" of soldiers are dying every day.
Seriously, this is way off the subject but fuck it I'm tired of fighting and want to hold hands and sing camp fire songs. Kidding - jebus you people are mean as snakes today. What I want to comment on is that there is a website run by one of the good ole left wing organizations. I don't ever post there, but I do lurk from time to time to see what is going on. They just changed their policy and have restricted anyone from posting who does not agree with their philosophy. It made me lose all respect. What is the point if you just silence the opposition? Without interacting with people who disagree with you, all you have is a mutual admiration society.
Submitted by reallybored (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:19:39 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
ack! mad typos. My apologises.
...as to not to waste space.
Folks heres my view on Bush and Iraq and whatever.
Im all for getting rid of Dictators and making the world a better place. Nobody is arguing against that. Are the Iraq people better off, (its arguable) but i think not have Saddam in charge is a good thing. If Bush had said before all this, "Hussein is a horrible dictator and the US as the most powerful country in the world need to step in and remove him from power." i would be WHOO BUSH! But, and this is a big BUT, Bush would have also stepped in to EVERY country in the world and stopped EVERY dictator.
He didnt do either of these things. His reasons for Iraq are weak and insubstantial. Unless he starts deploying troops in [editors note: I was going to list all the places of conflict, but its just waaaay to many so heres a good site for it http://www.ppu.org.uk/war/interactive/conflict_interactive.html] then i cant agree with him and have to say Bush is shady.
Submitted by MisterCeltic (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:18:48 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
You're a marvel; how do you type so well with your head so far up your ass.
Submitted by glam_daddy (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:14:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"Please read the whole reply. I said that I have no illusions that this will actually come about. But what do you want Bush to do? Really? He took away the terrorists motivations. How many Bin Laden tapes have we been sent since the Iraq war? Hunh? ZERO. That's how many."
Oh man you really are clueless...
Submitted by Persecuted (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:14:09 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Loki and Reallybored just handed my arse to me on a platter.
Submitted by reallybored (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:13:15 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
How many Bin Laden tapes have we been sent since the Iraq war? Hunh? ZERO. That's how many.
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Did you ever have a moment in your life when you everything clicked and finally made sense? That sentence was the moment.
The moment when i realized what a completely and utter idiot you are, Persecuted.
You think that bin laden not sending out videotapes is the great proof things are working out? DID YOU MISS THE HUNDREDS OF SOLDIERS THAT ARE DYING EVERYDAY BECAUSE OF BOMBINGS AND ATTACKS?!
I want whatever pills you are taking.
Submitted by Deisangua (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:11:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't think he took away the terrorist's motivations, and I don't think Bush's statements are given much more relevance unless he honestly means to take on every anti-democratic evil. And he doesn't, if his actions regarding North Korea are to be taken as hints.
However, you are right in saying he us a trophy whose capture has relevant meaning to the Iraqi people, and the Bush Administration. And no doubt, many Iraqis are feel better today.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:09:41 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
** How many Bin Laden tapes have we been sent since the Iraq war? Hunh? ZERO. That's how many.**
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/09/10/binladen.tape/
?
Submitted by Persecuted (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:05:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Heh, if WMDs are found, I think many of you should suck Bush's dick.
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Ummm...What did this post have to do with WMDs?
Submitted by Random Joe at 2003-12-15 15:03:07 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Heh, if WMDs are found, I think many of you should suck Bush's dick.
Submitted by Persecuted (user info) at 2003-12-15 15:00:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Holy fuck! Do actually think before you type? Honestly, im really concerned.
So i guess with Bush capturing Saddamn, and with us handing over Osama the holy land this whole terrorist shit will be over with.
Nice dream world. Idiot.
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Please read the whole reply. I said that I have no illusions that this will actually come about. But what do you want Bush to do? Really? He took away the terrorists motivations. How many Bin Laden tapes have we been sent since the Iraq war? Hunh? ZERO. That's how many.
Submitted by reallybored (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:57:06 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Now his fellow terrorist will see no reason to fight anylonger
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Holy fuck! Do actually think before you type? Honestly, im really concerned.
So i guess with Bush capturing Saddamn, and with us handing over Osama the holy land this whole terrorist shit will be over with.
Nice dream world. Idiot.
Submitted by Persecuted (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:47:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
So it is not important to capture the man responsible for the death of 3000 americans on american soil? And saddam, a man with no weapons of mass destruction (he already used the ones we sold him) and no nukes, no way to harm us. he is the one we catch?
remind me again how bush is a winner here?
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It is important to capture Osama for the same reason it was important to capture Saddam. Symbolism. The liberation of Iraq took away Osama's power, by making him the winner. Osama achived his goal of removing the americans from the holyland. Now his fellow terrorist will see no reason to fight anylonger. As I said, I have no illusions that Osama will really stop trying to attack the US. But taking away his motivation has to deal a blow to his cause.
Submitted by JannyB (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:39:47 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
"but who you will police the police?"
Submitted by glam_daddy (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:39:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"In your previous statement your said that Osama is the real enemy. He no longer has a reason to attack america. He no doubt will try, but with less support from his fellow Jihaders."
So it is not important to capture the man responsible for the death of 3000 americans on american soil? And saddam, a man with no weapons of mass destruction (he already used the ones we sold him) and no nukes, no way to harm us. he is the one we catch?
remind me again how bush is a winner here?
Submitted by ieuph (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:39:21 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
"In my opinion, the best way to give the people of Iraq an outlet, without rushing the progress to democracy, would be a public trial of Saddam for his war crimes."
Right, a trial in the international criminal court at the Hague. But wait--the United States doesn't support that court...
Because all people need "an outlet." What?
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:27:03 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
It's so much fun when reallybored, glam and I are on the same side.
Submitted by Persecuted (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:24:45 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The US has made a lot of bad decisions. That doesn't mean that they can't make one that it right. Rumsfeld shaking hands with a dictator doesn't prove anything. We all know cooperation existed between Saddam and the US prior to the annexation of Kuwait, but George W. is trying to fix a major problem that is a threat to the security of the free world.
In your previous statement your said that Osama is the real enemy. He no longer has a reason to attack america. He no doubt will try, but with less support from his fellow Jihaders.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:18:29 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/14/sprj.irq.police/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/15/iraq.blasts/index.html
I predict that if anything, this will lead to even more attacks because now they are desperate. He's probably been discredited by his people for going down without a fight and much like drug dealers and mob bosses, there will be plenty of power hungry people to take his place.
My question is, how soon will the pull out begin? I listened to quite a bit of the chatter yesterday and this warm fuzzy feeling will be pretty short lived when people realize that catching Saddam is not going to be the beginning of the end.
So far they have been told that once they get to Baghdad they could come home. That didn't happen.
Then the war would be over when Saddam was captured - that will not happen either.
I'm glad he's out of power, he was awful, but this war was not worth it and was a total bait and switch, but I wonder how long it's going to take before everyone fully realizes the scope of the quagmire that Bush had lead us into.
Submitted by glam_daddy (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:16:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Persecuted ...
thanks for the... history lesson. I dont see how it has anything to do with my previous statement.... but whatever...
heres an interesting bit of history for ya...
http://www.jordansplace.net/homepage/politics/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg
Submitted by tuesdaydelay (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:16:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by Persecuted (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:15:45 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
two posts on the same day on the same topic by the same other.
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Did you mean author. Because this is the first post on this topic I have ever written.
Submitted by reallybored (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:14:53 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
other = author.
im made that mistake so i could -2 you again.
Submitted by Persecuted (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:14:39 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
OK, bush gets 1. But lets put up a point for every US soldier that died for unjust reasons in the anti-war column and see which side the level leans.
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Well then surely Bush can have another 1 for every Iraqi he liberated. Fair's fair.
Submitted by reallybored (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:14:17 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
two posts on the same day on the same topic by the same other.
I knew i disliked you for a reason.
Fucking loser.
Submitted by WillZone (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:13:22 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
OK, bush gets 1. But lets put up a point for every US soldier that died for unjust reasons in the anti-war column and see which side the level leans.
BUSH: 1999 The US Military is not a police force.
BUSH 2003: Our troops will stay in Iraq and police the area till demcracy happens.
I paraphrased that of course.
Submitted by El_Guapo (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:10:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.ubersite.com/m/20712#302719
Submitted by Persecuted (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:08:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
capturing saddam is a symbolic victory nothing more. he wasnt leading any attacks on our army. he was not a part of the 9-11 attacks on america. He is not connected to al queda. he was no threat to us.
so yes its all fine that we got him but what i wnat to know is where is osama? the real enemy here....
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Thank you. Well, sort of. You seem to grasp the concept that this is a symbolic victory. However, you may need to brush up on your middle eastern history.Let's go back to the first gulf war. Remember back when Osama didn't hate America, and a certain crazed lunatic still held enough power to annex it's tiny neighbour. Remember when there were no United States troops disgracing the Holy land with their presence in Saudi Arabia. Well, when Saddam did annex Kuwait, and the UN reponded, United States troops were posted on sacred, muslim lands. This made a certain crazed terrorist royally pissed off. In fact, he was soo pissed off he declared Jihad on his old ally, and launched attacks against their economic center.
Just for to add something more to this conversation, the US troops have now left the Holy land in Saudi Arabia. This was not widely reported by the media because it would be seen as giving the terrorists what they want. Osama has nothing to complain about. Ofcourse that won't stop him. He'll most likely try to regroup his shattered orgainization to attack the US again, but he has no moral justification. For that fact we have bush to thank.
Submitted by glam_daddy (user info) at 2003-12-15 14:04:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
capturing saddam is a symbolic victory nothing more. he wasnt leading any attacks on our army. he was not a part of the 9-11 attacks on america. He is not connected to al queda. he was no threat to us.
so yes its all fine that we got him but what i wnat to know is where is osama? the real enemy here....
Submitted by Slovin (user info) at 2003-12-15 13:59:17 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Another -2 for forgetting that the war still hasn't been justified.
Submitted by Slovin (user info) at 2003-12-15 13:58:25 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Hooray for Bush, he got revenge for his dad.
This changes absolutely nothing, except that our fucking dipshit of a president will be re-elected.
You're a moron and I hope you die.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-12-15 13:58:18 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
**The capture of Saddam Hussein is undeniably relevant to the future of Iraq and the Bush administration, as he symbolizes the oppression that the Coalition went into Iraq to destroy.**
OHMYGOD thank you so much for clearing that up for me. I thought we went to war because we were trying to keep THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA safe from terrorism. So all along this was just about freeing people from oppression.