Bush's Immigration Plan - My Take (Open To Discussion) (891 hits)
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Submitted by Redrum<redrum420.at.zoomtown.com> (View user info) at 2004-01-13 22:00:54 EST
First off, I'd like to apologize in advance for the length of this post and the fact that a lot of this will be copied and pasted from an email I wrote to Maddox in response to his article here: http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart. (By the way, do HTML codes work in Uberposts? I'm afraid to try and make this post any worse than it'll be by trying them now, so I'll hold off for another time.)
The following are excerpts from the email that discuss the topic.
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I must say that what I'm writing about in this email was one point where I found I disagreed with you upon. I came upon your update for 11-18-03 tonight after work and although I applaud you for calling in giving the Colmes Show's guest host a piece of your mind regarding his bullshit bigotry, I believe you're not looking at the situation from all possible angles.
You stated "If you lose your job to an immigrant, it's probably because he or she was willing to work harder for less money". I fully support what you're saying about there being nothing wrong with a little competition, but the competition should be *legal* competition. Capitalism in America was built upon competition, but what is fair about illegal workers who are allowed to do more work and allowed to do it for less pay? These people often aren't even working at minimum wage, they're working for far below it. How can any American compete with that? Allow me to give an example:
"One Asian will do three, four times the work of a native Philadelphian, won't take coffee break and no lunch," an executive of Philadelphia-based Corestaff Inc., a temporary labor firm, said on condition of anonymity. "That appeals to the greed of the client." (Taken from Thomas Ginsberg's article for the Philadelphia Enquirer at http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/7158842.htm, 18th paragraph on the page)
As much as I agree that most Americans are lazy in general and more likely to pick apart policies on illegal immigration than to just get out there and do the better job, I can also see the other side of things and that if they were to simply get out there and try that it would fall apart on them. What American labor depends upon is American laws and policy to help keep it in this country and on an evened playing field so that companies can compete with each other *fairly*. When companies use illegal immigration to cheat or send low-skilled jobs to other countries to meet a lower bottom line, American labor and our whole economy loses and I can very much see why people would be upset over this.
The question that needs to be examined is this, though; is it right for American citizens to have to compete with *illegal* labor? Yes, people work illegally. Yes, they are paid under the table. But any American who stood up to "work harder and do the better job" would be prevented from doing so by our LAWS that are put in place to prevent this sort of thing. Our workers are required to take breaks, to maintain certain limits to their labor and duties performed, and to do it at no less than our established minimum wage. Would you expect our citizens to have to break labor laws in order to compete with immigrants who can't legally work in the first place?
One point where I believed you to be completely on target was the illogical fear that our jobs are being "taken" by illegal immigrants. So many Americans use this paranoid stance and fail to see that many of the jobs illegal immigrants take are jobs that most Americans would consider themselves to be "above" and would not do anyway. An example would be some of the fruit-picking during the harvest seasons of California and other manual labor positions that American employers have trouble filling in the first place. Positions like these not only thrive, but depend upon illegal laborers.
I'd like you to take a moment to think about a statement you made and the question I'll pose to you. You stated "I know I can do my job better than anyone, and if an immigrant thinks he can do a better job than I can, I welcome him to try." You're very much right, you are in a skilled field that not many others could simply step in and do, let alone any immigrant pulled from across our borders. But like many of our upper class citizens who believe NAFTA to be a good idea, this seems to be a case of something being shrugged off simply because the negative effects could never effect you.
Please imagine for a moment that you work eight hours a day and five days a week sweeping the tile floors and doing menial labor at the same complex where you currently do your computer work instead of your current job. You might give your full effort and be very proud of your work, but that wouldn't guarantee that you would keep your job. Suppose the company you would be doing janitorial work for paid you minimum wage to do it. If the company were able to find an illegal immigrant in the area who proposed to do it for half of what you do it for, do you think your employer would care all that much about the slightly lower-quality work they'd be receiving? The employer would be thinking of all the money saved not just on your pay, but on benefits, insurance, and all other sorts of things they would be providing to you. They could easily remove those benefits from the position before giving the job to the illegal immigrant who wanted your job.
Now please don't believe that I buy into the fear of illegal immigrants taking our jobs, my point was to illustrate that for *many* of us in America, it simply isn't possible for our jobs to be "taken". If you were a person currently relying on unskilled labor, though, the fear might be very valid.
The problem of competition isn't something only happening within our own borders, we have to worry about competing with foreign laborers (even in the case of American companies, who often take their manufacturing jobs to other countries for cheaper labor). Some things America has in place to protect our unskilled labor force and our economy internationally are economic tariffs. Like our minimum wage and established code of ethics/labor laws within our own country, economic tariffs are used to keep Americans on an even playing field so that we can compete fairly.
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Alright, that's out of the way. I did my best to express my opinions in that letter and that was before Bush's latest proposal. I know I've already lost most people's attention already, but that's alright. The people who really want to discuss this issue will grin it and bear and we'll get an actual debate from the ones who are left.
Moving right along: "The officials said the employers would have to show they cannot find U.S. citizens to fill their jobs. They said getting undocumented workers to come forward would bring them into the tax system and "out of the shadows," as one official put it, and guarantee them wage and employment rights." (From http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/elec04.prez.bush.immigration/index.html.)
My whole disagreement with this whole issue is the fact that the current administration thinks this will fix the problem and keep the money within our borders. Most of these people working in the United States illegally are sending home their pay to help support their extended family. Taken from another article, we are told that "Bush has stressed that he expects most of the workers will return home permanently when their job is done. And as a motivator, part of their pay would be collectable only after they go back to Mexico." (From http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IMMIGRATION_MIGRANT_WORKERS?SITE=OHCIN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT.) That does nothing to keep money within our borders short of what will be collected through income taxes and the cost of living that current illegal workers will have to pay.
The reason that many Americans will not take the jobs that employers are having trouble filling is because the wages for the positions are so low. Most people could not live off the wages unless they took up a second (or even third) job. The logical solution would be to stop employers from hiring illegal workers by doing a better job of protecting our borders and stopping illegal laborers from creeping in. Rather than tighten our borders, however, the administration believes that by enlarging our current illegal workforce and making it legal they will oil all the gears and get them rolling in our favor.
If businesses weren't allowed to hire illegal workers, they would be forced to raise wages to the point where more Americans would accept the jobs. We have industries (such as the fruit industry) that haven't seen their cost of production rise in years. No one in the industry wants to be the first to raise the cost of their product and to possibly alienate consumers. This hurts America, and in turn, Americans.
The plan that Bush proposes benefits businesses for the most part, not Americans or even workers who are currently here illegally. There have even been similar programs in the past which also failed for the most part. One such program was just after WWII and was ended by President John F. Kennedy. "President Kennedy ended the program, saying the program was "adversely affecting the wages, working conditions and employment opportunities of our own agricultural workers."" (Again from the Associated Press article printed in the Cincinnati Enquirer.)
Now that I've given my own opinion and some facts from fairly unbiased news sources (please no one cite Fox News or I just might vomit on my keyboard), I'd love to hear some feedback. No one at work understands or talks politics and I'm in need of some discussion. Thanks for reading this far already and for any insight you might offer.
- Jim
User Reviews
Submitted by Redrum (user info) at 2004-01-14 18:56:06 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
lol, I love the irony in that idea =) Anyway, this must've been too much for most people to read. No biggie. Thanks for participating guys, some good points all around.
Submitted by kgbpasha (user info) at 2004-01-14 18:42:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Okay Redrum, I see where you stand now and I must say it sounds
about right, but the problem will still exist if not worsen,if indeed
Bush's plan comes to fruition. It's obviously not a major issue for
the current president. He's dealing with Iraq, the whole terrorist
threat thing, Afghanistan is still there, but I find it a bit ridiculous
that he's trying to push this space program back onto the shoulders
of the people.
Yes, Mars is cool, but the only aliens he should be dealing with is the
ones who want in to the country. Loki's point about the 2nd class citizen
is accurate and I agree with her on that...but the solution is a tough one
to pin down. I think it might boil down to either All or Nothing. Reagan's
Amnesty worked well at the time, we might be due for round 2. Or build the
Great Wall of America. If the Chinese did it way back when with just manual
labor, it should be a piece of cake for the Americans of today. Except for
they'd probably want to hire Mexicans to build it. That would be slightly
ironic.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2004-01-14 10:16:32 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I do not think that this will do anything to stop the flow of illegal immigration into the country. From what I understand, they will only be allowed to stay here for 6 years and then they'll have to go home and working here does not move them to the head of any list for people granted permanent immigration status. How long does it take for an illegal to get caught and deported? I'm guessing longer than 6 years so what is the motivation for them to go through this process.
I also see this as a means of creating a permanent second class citizenry. The people in the guest worker program in all likelihood will not receive the same benefits as a citizen and employers will have no incentive to retain good workers since they are only here for a specific period.
Basically, I see this creating more problems than it's going to solve. At least he's paying attention to the situation and not that I can think of anything better, but I foresee disaster looming.
Submitted by Redrum (user info) at 2004-01-14 10:09:03 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Dang kgbpasha =P Here I type up one massive beast of a post and feel done! Oh well, it's my fault if there was any confusion about things. Now I get to be a jackass and reply to clarify. Apologies.
I'm against Bush's proposal because I don't think that even the *current* system works. Rather than introducing something radical and doomed to failure like Bush's guest worker program, I would rather see the U.S. tighten our borders and force businesses to raise their wages to fill positions. Yes, it is illegal for them to hire undocumented workers, but that doesn't always stop them. Remember, it's only a crime if you get caught.
If that doesn't clear things up, I apologize. I'm a little rushed for this post. I'm surprised to see any responses =P I'll check back in a bit.
Submitted by AlwaysAnEagle (user info) at 2004-01-14 09:23:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
I think that this policy is about 25% actual policy based and 75% political. I also think it's bullshit.
You mentioned the "stealing American jobs" paranoia...one of my favorite Interesting Trivia bits on that front is that only about 6 percent of Americans are foreign born, opposed to Britain's 8 percent and France's 11 percent. If more people were coming into America to steal jobs, this figure would be far higher.
The issue I have with the whole "oh, of COURSE they would leave after their time here" attempt is that there's no damn way to ensure it, and it's not gonna happen. If I'm an illegal immigrant who is coming to America because I can find better pay and better work there, I'm not going to want to go back. Added to the "I don't wanna" issue, there's also the matter of FINDING these people once they are here to expel them when they're done. Whne there is a legal immigration, there is a massive paper trail created, and they can find someone through several channels...but with this plan, that paperwork would not be there. The INS has hardly proven it can keep track of the people who ARE here legally, how is it going to monitor the ones who aren't?
It's one big political play.
Submitted by kgbpasha (user info) at 2004-01-14 03:56:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"If businesses weren't allowed to hire illegal workers, they would be forced to raise wages to the point where more Americans would accept the jobs."
Kind of confused me here. I was under the impression that it is not legal to hire
illegal workers. Are employers fined if caught employing illegal workers? Also not
exactly sure where you stand exactly or what issue it is you're trying to discuss.
Are you looking to point a finger or are you looking for a solution because if it's
the latter, I'd like to hear what you've come up with.
I live in the northern Sacramento Valley in California, so I get a lot of ignorant
people saying things like, "them damn Mexicans are taking our jobs....they don't
pay taxes...they're all on welfare...blah, blah...etc." I don't even bother trying
to educate them, that's not what they want to hear nor would they understand.
Okay, my head is hurting.
Submitted by Redrum (user info) at 2004-01-13 22:48:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
:: Shrugs :: We'll see. http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/immigration.congress/index.html
Submitted by angrykoz (user info) at 2004-01-13 22:39:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Do you honestly think that Bush is seriously trying to get this issue passed or is he merely just trying to get the Hispanic vote? I am a Bush supporter and I really think he is pushing the issue to get the vote and I have no problem with that. The real question is, after Bush gets reelected by winning the Hispanic vote in Florida, California, and Texas will Congress let it pass? ---- Hell fuck no they won't and in the end Bush will still look like the good guy.
Submitted by Redrum (user info) at 2004-01-13 22:02:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Heading to make a sammich, bring on the debate. I'll check back in about an hour or so.