Intelligent Opinions Solicited On Senior Thesis-Especially From Spike (852 hits)
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Submitted by Quartermain (View user info) at 2004-02-10 12:07:19 EST
This being my last semester in college, I have to write my senior thesis. This is a thirty-page dissertation that is basically supposed to show what I've learned and why I should get a degree.
I wanted to do something a little different with this than your usual run-of-the-mill papers about WWII, the Cold War, or the discovery of the New World.
Being that I specialise in mediaeval history, and that I've got all kinds of books on ancient Britain, Celtic legends, the spread of Christianity, and the like, I figured I could work something out. I've been working on a topic for about two weeks now, off and on, and I think that I have the subject nailed down.
The following is cribbed from my research proposal. I'm interested in intelligent opinions and useful feedback, things that I might be able to use. But if you just want to say 'good luck, you're gonna need it', that's cool too. Like the title says, I'm going to try and pick SpikeGoddess's brain for anything she can direct me to, either in books or on the web.
***The research topic I want to pursue in my senior thesis is the changing perception of the 'witch' in the folklore and legends of the mediaeval British Isles and Scandinavia . I will discuss the way that pre-Christian Britain and Scandinavia regarded the witch, the way that the witch was regarded in the post-Christian era, the way the perceptions changed and how this change was exemplified in literature, folklore, and legends of the time.
This topic is important because very few things have had such a far-reaching and constant effect on human history as the advent of Christianity. It affected, and has continued to affect, every single facet of Western society. Government, culture, the practice of law, medicine, and architecture, among others were all affected by this new faith. Without it, the world as we know it would be virtually un-recognisable.
A key tenet of Christianity is its insistence on being the sole way to God. When it moved into Europe, it supplanted the earlier, holistic, pagan religions. However, the new faith did not entirely remove the older ones from spheres of influence. These previous beliefs and their practitioners survived in folklore, legends and myth. What was it about these older faiths that made them susceptible to being replaced by Christianity, but at the same time made them durable enough to survive to the present day, when so many other ancient faiths have been relegated to the dustbin of history?***
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Submitted by SpikeGoddess (user info) at 2004-02-11 02:14:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Good luck, Quartermain!
SpikeGoddess
Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2004-02-11 02:12:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Spike- You not making 'good sentences' is still worth more of a damn than a couple of other people I can think of, so don't worry about it.
I've got a copy of the Malleus Maleficarum, and I've got some stuff from Montague Summers on order. I'll take your advice about Joseph Campbell though, thats a good idea.I'm looking at more of the 'folklore and legend' angle than just straight history. I've been writing straight history for six years(off and on) and I want to tell a story for a change.
Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2004-02-11 02:01:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
See, I knew y'all would come in handy one day, why do you think I hang around?
Seriously though, this is all kinds of helpful. I'm meeting with my advisor next Monday, and by then I hope to have a revised proposal to give him, along with the one I submitted this week. It'll probably include elements of what people have suggested, along with a narrowing of the focus.
I'll let y'all know how it turns out.
Submitted by SpikeGoddess (user info) at 2004-02-11 02:00:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Ugh, I didn't rate. Have 2.
Sorry, I went off on the druids. It pisses me off that there are people who say they are druids nowadays. Well, you know what? WE DON'T REALLY KNOW THAT MUCH ABOUT WHO THE DRUIDS EVEN WERE, SO HOW CAN YOU BE ONE?! One thing to be very careful of is that there is a tendency towards shoddy scholarship in Neo-Pagan works. Certainly, this is not universal, but it's far too common and far too many people let it slide.
I re-read your proposal. You've got two distinct parts that don't quite fit right now, but here's what I think you might be able to do:
I think what you're really wanting to focus on is the historical development of paganism and Christianity. Witchcraft comes into play as both a part of the Neo-Pagan movement (which includes plenty of other things. I refer you to www.witchvox.com as a starting point, and I read this great history of Neo-Paganism that I now can't remember the name but I will get it for you, and there's always Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon" for a discussion of modern Neo-Paganism) and as a concept used by Christianity to label undesireable "others" who opposed the Church in some way, whether it was overt or simply through lifestyle differences or posing some sort of threat. That is where the concept of "witch" draws upon archetypal and mythic images passed through literature, song, and folklore. Depending on the desired end, the lore is viewed differently.
I can't sleep, and I am not making good sentances.
For the historical stuff, you certainly want to look at the Malleus Malificarum (sp?) as a primary source. For archetypal images of witches and their meaning, check Joseph Campbell, every fucking thing he ever wrote, and look in the index for "witchcraft" and "witches". He is amazing and brilliant and a wonderful scholar who will get you going in the right direction and inspire you personally as he does so. Look at Jung, while you're at it. They'll point you to literary examples as well as give analysis. The rest of the historical info you'll know how to find. I'll get you the name of that one book that's really good and well-researched on the origins of modern paganism.
SOMEBODY GIVE ME SOME SEDATIVES!
SpikeGoddess
Submitted by Anansie (user info) at 2004-02-11 01:58:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
By the way, that picture kicks ass.
Submitted by Anansie (user info) at 2004-02-11 01:58:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Holy Crap. Scrolling through this post and the replies, I suddenly I feel like my education is/was inadequate.
Submitted by SpikeGoddess (user info) at 2004-02-11 01:42:06 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Murichu's "Life of Patrick" depicts druids from a post-Christian point of view. In this tale, the druids have the power of prophesy, and on seeing Patrick's fire they warn their king that the fire must be extinguished that night, or it will burn forever. They are able to foresee their own decline and the rise of the new religion, but still most of them do not convert. However, of the ones that do convert (sometimes they are druids others are poets) it is often said that their relics are now venerated, lending fictional support to the theory that for some historical druids, conversion to the church and subsequently the priesthood may have provided a similar life of learning and power within the changing community. As Patrick himself is a practitioner of powerful magic, it is not the actual use of magic that the text takes issue with, rather the fact that the druids belong to the old world order. Patrick's magic proves more powerful than that of the druids, and those that do not join him are inevitably beaten by his more powerful magic, sourced from God.
The deepest role of the poet is revealed in the Tale of Gwion Bach and the Tale of Taliesin. The poet's wisdom is a divine gift, but one that must be snatched up by the poet through his own initiative, shown by the fact that Gwion Bach is able to 'steal' the power from Ceridwen's cauldron, even though its contents were not meant for him. Incubated and inspired by a divine feminine principle, the poet is then reborn but his spirit is eternal, having born witness to mythological and historical events. In his poem, Taliesin describes the things that he has witnessed, and this poem articulates the mythological truth that it is through poetry, and the presence of poets that the deep truths and cultural heritage of the Celts is passed on—and though the poet that their voices are heard today.
So, within that text I mention some primary sources you can go to for Druid stuff. However, Druids are not/ were not witches. They do offer a great example of the interplay between Christian and pagan religions though.
It is interesting to note that in "The Life of Patrick" it is not the practice of "magic" that is a problem. It is the fact that the Druids don't get their magic from Christ. So the anxiety isn't entirly about supernatural powers or occurences, but about the origin of those powers. When you consider that the Druids held positions of both spiritual AND legal athority, and then the Church arrived and essentially did the same thing, it's a very interesting comparison.
SpikeGoddess
Submitted by SpikeGoddess (user info) at 2004-02-11 01:38:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Smoky hasn't got the whole story on the Druids at all.
First of all, the term wizard is really problematic, and more a part of mythology than religious or spirtual practice. Unlike the word witch, it has not been reclaimed by a modern spiritual tradition. Druids were not witches, but they weren't wizards either. They were Druids. Forgive me, as I quote myself,
Celtic society rested on the shoulders of its poets and druids, who fulfilled multiple functions in pre-Christian and post-Christian times. In pre-Christian times the druids were religious authorities who had the knowledge of law and lore while poets controlled the kingship through praise and satire. After the arrival of Christianity, the roles of druids and poets changed, with the church eclipsing many of the druid's functions in the Old Religion and the poet taking on some aspects of the druid's role. We know little about the druids in Pre-Christian times, partly due to the fact that they shunned writing and have left us no written records of their own. We hear from the Classical writers that druids fulfill a priestly function, conduct sacrifices, and are involved in the pursuit of knowledge and philosophic inquiry. Strabo places them at the apex of the pyramid of the learned classes, above bards who are the singers and poets, and above vates who are concerned with natural philosophy and ritual. The druids, he says, are not only students of natural and moral philosophy, but they also settle private and public disputes, including murder cases. Cesar contributes that druids interpret religious matters, settle disputes, are exempt from military service and lawsuits, and that their training is extensive, requiring 20 years of study to memorize verses.
We can glean some information from looking at the writings of the Celts themselves and how druids and poets are represented. The interesting problem with these stories is that the poets themselves had the stories in their custody, so it is possible that they exaggerated their importance as a means of self-promotion. The story of Cridenbel the satirist and the Dagda in "The Second Battle of Mag Tuired" reveals an overwhelming fear of satire, and the belief that the words spoken by a satirist become truth. In the story, Cridenbel demands of the Dagda the three best bits of his portion, which the Dagda is powerless to refuse lest he be satirized. This lack of food is causing him to become weak, so he devises a plan whereby he will feed Cridenbel bits of food with gold in them, which will not only kill him, but will still technically satisfy his request for the 'best bits'. This plan will also ultimately unseat King Bress because he will make an incorrect judgment that the Dagda poisoned Cridenbel, which he technically did not, thus violating the fir flather. On another occasion, a poet arrives at Bress's house and finds the hospitality to be lacking, at which point he satirizes Bress with the 'first satire made in Ireland' by saying that "Bress's prosperity no longer exists". Simply by saying so, it became true and Bress's sovereignty was ended. The druids in this text seem more oriented towards sorcery and magic than the spoken word, and during the battle it is written that "Figol son of Mamas, their druid, said, "I will rain three showers of fire on the faces of the Fomorian host, and I will take out of them two thirds of their courage and their skill at arms and their strength, and I will bind their urine in their own bodies and in the bodies of their horses." This is an expression of supernatural power, and it attacks the enemy with cosmic forces (showers of fire), psychological control (stealing their power and strength), and physiological control (the binding of urine). In other instances, Figol speaks long prophesy poems, showing the function of druids as diviners and mediators between humans and higher powers.
Submitted by SpikeGoddess (user info) at 2004-02-11 01:30:36 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
I don't know how I missed this earlier---what with my name in the title and all. Better late than never, I suppose!
I certainly do agree with GodChicken. One of the first things you're going to run into is that people who were called "witches" or accused of witchcraft did NOT self-identify as witches. "Witch" was a negative term, and was applied to people who actually WERE NOT pagan in any way. It was used to label the mentally ill, the strange, women who practiced herbal medicine (if a woman is threatening your medical practice because her herbs work better than your pseudo-science, just call her a witch and get her out of the picture! Woohoo!), etc.
Your first task is to define witchcraft. Are you only going to talk about people who intentionally practiced a pre-Christian religion? Because they weren't the ones who were most subject to persecution and death as 'witches', and generally weren't called 'witches' at all.
The people who call themselves "witches" today are only loosely related to those who practiced pre-Christian religions, and even more tenuously connected to any kind of "tradition" of witchcraft that has been "passed down". While I would never invalidate another person's path, I tend to think that people who claim that there was a secret underground tradition that's been maintained to the present day are either full of shit or just practicing wishful thinking.
Some angles that occur to me:
1. The use of the label "witch" as a tool of political, religious and social control against undesireable "others" in society.
2. The archetypal meaning of the witch in a literary context. How did the image change over time, and what cultural changes does that reveal? What is it about the witch that is feared? What is it about the witch that makes modern people seek to self-identify that way?
3. The history of the interactions of pagan and Christian religions, and how each has influenced and shaped the other in the areas of beliefs, rituals, etc. (Yes, it does go both ways. There are even people who self-identify as "Christian Witches" nowadays! Wrap your mind around that one!)
I think the topic you present above includes ALL of these angles that I've mentioned, but I don't see how you can really address everything in a 30pg paper. You really need to focus in and get more specific. Pick a smaller cultural/geographical area, for starters.
(More to come...)
SpikeGoddess
Submitted by Sideburns (user info) at 2004-02-10 22:34:14 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
HAHAHAHAHAA!!!
Bunny!!! Pancakes!!!
...ON HIS HEAD!!!!
WOOOOO.
Thanks for including something in this post that even the slow-minded can understand.
-Sideburns
Submitted by Anansie (user info) at 2004-02-10 21:00:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Did Bart fix that shit with Jerk-Off? I love Bart.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2004-02-10 20:52:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I have a canoe named "swamp witch", does that help?
Submitted by bob (user info) at 2004-02-10 19:19:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
i dont know if this was the point or not but in this proposal you seem to change from having the main focus being the perception of 'witch' to christianity.
confusing...
but interesting.
Submitted by bob (user info) at 2004-02-10 19:15:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
oh oh oh oh oh oh...
do it on king leopold and the belgian congo and how it subsequently lead to the violent Congoese liberation in the 1960s.
oh wait, thats what im doing in my ap euro class.
nevermind.
wait? your telling me that your dissertation is only 30pgs? woah. i was expecting like 100 like in graduate. if you want to get a doctorate, watch out, my mother had to write a 250pg dissertation for Columbia.
Submitted by Adereterial (user info) at 2004-02-10 18:49:05 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
My speciality is Russian History (2 degrees and counting), so I can't really comment on the validity of your subject or whether your proposal is possible, but I can say that I found what you have written so far very interesting and well presented.
I know the work required for the final dissertation seems really daunting when you first approach it, but I've done it twice and by far the worst bit is trying to work out what you can leave out... and how to get it near the word limit cos you've gone far too far over it...
I believe that there is a conference on related subjects to yours in London sometime this year - if you feel up to it, you might consider attending (if you can afford it) or submitting a proposal for presnetation? I think the best place to look is www.history.ac.uk
Best of luck
Submitted by Kristen (user info) at 2004-02-10 17:23:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
What if I don't have any citical feedback and just want to say that the excerpt you provided was really good?
Submitted by GodChicken (user info) at 2004-02-10 16:01:54 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
cool stuff.
Your first thing is to define what it is you are calling a "witch" as the new age spiritualism is rife with people and things calling themselves witchcraft and such. You should first look at a medieval definition, and then try and find a contemporary definition.
I think SpikeGoddess will agree with me on this point.
Q-main: if you wish to concentrate on the celtic and druidic roots of modern day spiritualism and "wicca" That would be the way to angle towards it. There are several different versions of that alone much less what has been labeled as witchcraft and sorcery over the last 100 years.
Reference Aleister Crowley for another version of "magick"
You've got a big umbrella you have to narrow down to specifics first.
Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2004-02-10 15:49:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Smokey- Thanks for that. I'll check that out.
I've got some of the Icelandic sagas laying around here somewhere But then again, everything is around here somewhere. I've also got some old books on witches and the law and what-not from 16th England coming in the mail.
People who spam posts suck like a Tijuana donkey show.
Submitted by Heimdallsman (user info) at 2004-02-10 12:59:28 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
For a really interesting look at how Christianity and heathenism survived side by side, right up until the present day, look at some of the sagas written (or recorded) by Snorri Sturlesson, like the Heimskringla. Snorri also wrote the Prose Edda, an instruction book on how people could write like a heathen but live as a christian.
Iceland (where Snorri lived) is quite an interesting example of how multiple faiths can exist simultaneously.
--HeimdallsMan
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-02-10 12:57:00 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I would say you are going to want to look into the Cele Dei. Also I would say that an examination of witch is going to have to mainly encompass druids, and most of them were men. I think the wizard was more prevalent than the witch during that time period. I would say that the reason the Druids so easily accepted Christianity is that it fit rather nicely with their concept of Tir na nOc. Also look for references to Jesus Christ as a Druid. I think the changing role of women in the druidic culture would be an interesting part of that. Originally Druids allowed women to be equal to men, but that faded over time and by Chaucerian times, all the great bards were men, and all the legends were of powerful wizards like Merlin inhabiting the world of politics. Although tales of witches still abound, they were more healers and less magic wielders. Well wait off the top of my head now I am thinking of Morganna and some other examples of rulers in England who were said to be magicked by witches who controlled them. I would focus probably though on the Cele Dei, on the Irish church and its persecution by Rome. I would also focus at the start of the thesis (say the first 3-5 pages after the intro) on why the church felt the way they did about witchcraft. Contrary to what many people believe, the Bible makes it clear that witches are not the realm of fantasy, but are very real, and have very real powers. You can look up Simon the sorceror, the witch of Endor and several other examples (searchable at www.biblegateway.com by searching witch). Anyway good luck on your thesis.
Submitted by Anansie (user info) at 2004-02-10 12:41:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
That's a very fascinating subject. I will admit I do not know all that much about the pagan religions. But in Intro to new testament, we learned that Christianity was such an inclusive religion compared to others that it spread like wildfire. Pretty much anyone could become a Christian. If you decide to pursue post-graduation studies, you should take Intro to Old and New Testament classes. You seem like you would be fascinated by them. Just make sure a Christian does not teach them. I don't think there is anything wrong with being a Christian, but in this case there would definitely be a problem with objectivity. Anyway, good luck.
+2 cause you seem pretty smart.