Islamic Call to Prayer: The Division of Society (1316 hits)
Category: PoliticsRating: 1.59 on 28 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by Malone (View user info) at 2004-04-16 04:43:38 EDT
This week in local news (Detroit) there is a hotbed for discussion. In the city of Hamtramck, outside of Detroit, the cities' Islamic population has reached 50% of the community. The Islamic community has asked the city council to lift a noise ban to allow the Call to Prayer to take place.
As you may or may not know, followers of Islam are required to pray 5 times a day, I believe they must face East while doing this, towards Mecca. The Islamic Call to Prayer is where somebody sung out across the area to let people know that it was now time to stop what you're doing and pray. This is now carried out using loudspeakers. It may sound as early as 6am. Islamic followers claim it is their Constitutional right to freedom of religion and this is a vital part of their religion.
Non-Islamic followers, mostly white Christians refuse to allow the Call to Prayer to "pollute" the air with "heresy". They defend their right to not to have to listen to it and have been collecting signatures with petitions to stop the movement.
Personally, I am sort of torn on who's side I would take. On the one hand you have the Constitution which grants religious freedom. On the other hand you have the Consitution which grants religious freedom. What? Am I confusing myself or just you? Islam wants to put this out as part of thier services. Religious freedom. Christians don't want to be subjected to another religions' proselytizing as it impedes on thier own beliefs. Religious freedom.
I was always under the assumption that religious freedom meant you can practice your beliefs without the threat of arrest or being told what you must believe. The religion of whatever presidents are in office does not become the official religion of the U.S. for their tenure. To remove the Call to Prayer wouldn't be preventing Islams from practicing their religion. The Call to Prayer has been around for unknown centuries because back through time, most people didn't have watches or PDA's to know what time it was and to go pray, thus the voice calls out from the Mosque to let the people know that now was the time. My father argues that the Call to Prayer could be handled just as effectivly today with a cell phone call to Islamic followers, thus saving the ears of nonbelievers.
I also can see that to non-christians, they are already subjected to Christianity everywhere they go. Church bells sound for service. Isn't that like a Call to Prayer? When you're driving around your neighborhood, what symbol dominates the treetops everywhere you turn? The cross. It's affixed to the steeple of every church and is in your face at all times. Being raised Christian, you don't even notice. But if those crosses in the sky were Jewish stars or any other symbol, you bet people would notice all the time. That is what it must be like for non-christians. Do they not want to see offending symbolism in thier EYESIGHT as much as Christians don't want to hear offending symbolism floating through the air to their ears? Church bells vs. Call to Prayer? The parallel is too strong, or is it? Church bells ring once a day at worst and once a week on Sunday at best. The Call to Prayer is 5 times a day, every day.
A friend of mine said "My freedom to swing my fist through the air around me ends at the tip of your face." I believe what my friend was getting at was that his freedom to do what he wants ends at the moment it affects me. Another quote worth considering here is "Freedom of speech isn't getting to say what you want to say, but having to hear what you don't want to hear." Please re-read that. Both of these statements are so profound that one should ponder each individually for their own merits.
Personally, I don't want to hear the shit. As an American I should have the right not to hear the Call to Prayer. Now listen to this next part carefully: However and in contradiction, as an American, having to tolerate foreign cultures and different ideas is what makes me an American, and it's my Constitutional right to HAVE to be sujbected to those cultures and ideas whether I like it or not. I can see the two sides of this coin too clearly. I don't know what or who's right in this matter. If it comes down to it, I think a faded, wrinkled old ass piece of paper sitting in Washington D.C. has the answer and it's the right answer.
A link to give background if you're interested in my opinion put in context: http://www.freep.com/news/locway/npray14_20040414.htm
User Reviews
Submitted by Eric_Rice (user info) at 2004-10-17 14:56:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by TonyMontana (user info) at 2004-04-17 04:42:02 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
You did a good job of taking an issue most people would just attack with brutal racism and calmly and rationally discussing it in a thoughtful, logical manner. Kick ass.
Submitted by Lucifer_Industries (user info) at 2004-04-17 04:18:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Nowhere near most heated, so youarsoghey your name is not Shirley. Then again...it never was.
Que sera sera.
Submitted by maryjane (user info) at 2004-04-16 21:53:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Good post!
Submitted by I_have_a_Malone_fetish (user info) at 2004-04-16 21:49:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I really do.
Have a malone fetish that is.
Super post.
Submitted by BLITZKREIG_BOB (user info) at 2004-04-16 13:15:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The Constitution guarantees life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which means that you can pretty much do whatever you want to do, so long as it doesn't interfere with the next guy's ability to pursue life, liberty, & happiness. This is a catch-22. The Constitution also requires separation of church and state. So these calls will be treated similarly to any other noise like a jackhammer or Herpes pumpin' the bass.
However, I will tell you what will happen with this situation:
The local government will not take sides - and they shouldn't - unless there's a complaint. Then they have to investigate the complaint. Somebody definately will complain, probably immediately after the first call to prayer is sung/sounded. The nature of the complaint will be a noise violation, probably through the local zoning ordinances. Most zoning ordinances usually state that no sound, light, etc shall be able to be detected off of the sound/light maker's property. The enforcement will shut the offending calls to prayer down - or fine them for every time that they do it. The Muslims will retaliate by complaining about the church bells. In a year, there will be no religious sounds outside of the churches/mosques.
Isn't separation of church and state grand?
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2004-04-16 12:32:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
how'd y'all get on the arabs? This is about muslims, american muslims.
Submitted by Thanatos (user info) at 2004-04-16 10:05:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by GodChicken (user info) at 2004-04-16 09:31:27 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by JBOMB (user info) at 2004-04-16 09:14:05 (#)
Ranking: 0
This isn't about religion. It is about society. In the Middle East it may be fine for Arabs to scream at the top of their lungs over loudspeakers. They also cut off people's hands there for stealing and use stadiums for public executions. You want to live in the west? Then respect our culture, and if you don't like it: GO HOME.
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Don't be so shortsighted. Not everyone who follows Islam is from the middle east. Natural born citizens of the US follow it as well. Where do they go?
You're taking the worst examples of the Arab culture to make them look like barbarians.
While the "west" was rotting in the dark ages, the arabs were the at the height of science and culture.
I don't like to hear church bells. Make them stop that, too. Tell the christians to go home.
wait... what?
Unfortunately for the Arabs, this is no longer true. Instead, we have become the cultured and advanced society, while they have regressed to a middle ages mentality. At present I wouldn't want the Arabs to build a potato gun for me, much less any advanced technology. Unless they're building weapons the scientists must strictly follow religious 'teaching' or face death.
Submitted by shandythedog (user info) at 2004-04-16 09:38:39 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
plus two for this well-put observation:
The religion of whatever presidents are in office does not become the official religion of the U.S. for their tenure
Submitted by GodChicken (user info) at 2004-04-16 09:31:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by JBOMB (user info) at 2004-04-16 09:14:05 (#)
Ranking: 0
This isn't about religion. It is about society. In the Middle East it may be fine for Arabs to scream at the top of their lungs over loudspeakers. They also cut off people's hands there for stealing and use stadiums for public executions. You want to live in the west? Then respect our culture, and if you don't like it: GO HOME.
===========================================================
Don't be so shortsighted. Not everyone who follows Islam is from the middle east. Natural born citizens of the US follow it as well. Where do they go?
You're taking the worst examples of the Arab culture to make them look like barbarians.
While the "west" was rotting in the dark ages, the arabs were the at the height of science and culture.
I don't like to hear church bells. Make them stop that, too. Tell the christians to go home.
wait... what?
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2004-04-16 09:24:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't see where the problem is. The first ammendment of your constitution states:
" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
in light of this, Congress cannot forbid muslims from having their muezzins issue the call to prayer. What is more important, Congress cannot also allow them to do the same as it simply does not have the power. Considering that powers not enumerated are reserved to the states ( local government ) it either lies within the purview of the state, county or parish ( in Lousiana) to enforce local ordinances, such as they are. This is what voter initiatives & referenda are for.
Submitted by JBOMB (user info) at 2004-04-16 09:14:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
This isn't about religion. It is about society. In the Middle East it may be fine for Arabs to scream at the top of their lungs over loudspeakers. They also cut off people's hands there for stealing and use stadiums for public executions. You want to live in the west? Then respect our culture, and if you don't like it: GO HOME.
Submitted by corn_nugget (user info) at 2004-04-16 07:51:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The Call to Prayer is an absolutly beautiful sound... it's the thing I miss most about Egypt.
Can this be compared to Church Bells?
Good post, ole boy.
Submitted by Magicaddict (user info) at 2004-04-16 07:45:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Good argumentative discussion, well thought out.
Submitted by seanfogy (user info) at 2004-04-16 07:38:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
wow this is good stuff
I would say its only fair. If church bells ring before service starts, then Muslims should be allowed the same right to hear their call to prayer.
ALTHOUGH...
The thing you have to think about is... (here's the key) what's next? What will happen next?
You have the Christians on one side crying "But... but... this is my America!"
You have the Muslims over here saying "It's also ours"
Then the Hindus come out of left field saying something or another.
Then the Jews will make their demands.
Those who just made up their own religion out of spite will do whatever the hell it is that they do.
The Buddhists and Taoists just wish everyone would shut the fuck up so they can concentrate.
The atheists, agnostics, humanists and all those in between dont want to hear any of it and what you have is a big fucking mess.
Kinda like the argument that some make saying that gay marriage will spawn all sorts of wild debauchery such as beastiality, incest and what not.
Pardon me for being rational, but I say that everyone should shut the fuck up, take five dollars, go down the street to the store and get a watch. Better yet, make it a pocket watch. With a cool little chain on it.
Submitted by earth_collapse (user info) at 2004-04-16 07:06:26 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Nicely written and well balanced on both sides. I don't really care either way though.
Submitted by youarsoghey (user info) at 2004-04-16 05:48:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
That's how most countries work. This one has problems because we address those issues I suppose. Just my guess.
p.s. Malone, you've got to stop giving yourself +2's.
Submitted by Lucifer_Industries (user info) at 2004-04-16 05:43:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I think that some of it may stem from the fact that Americans want to have thier cake and eat it too, all the time, no exceptions. This isn't the way life nor the world works, never has.
If you could ask the American consciousness a question and have it answered it would probably come back something like this: "I'm all for compromise so long as it doesn't mean I have to compromise."
Malone
Submitted by Herpes (user info) at 2004-04-16 05:42:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Fuck it. I can't sleep, so I'm going to go wake up the neighborhood anyways. Way to go Malone. Putting fucking ideas in my head.
Submitted by youarsoghey (user info) at 2004-04-16 05:38:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
That certainly would solve a lot of problems. It would also cause a lot of problems.
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2004-04-16 05:37:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I think France is going about it the right way.
No one can do anything. How about that?
No religioua paraphanelia, no crucifix, no headscarves not skull caps etc. Equal. At home or in the street one can do what they like but in offices, schools, public buildings etc no go.
Submitted by youarsoghey (user info) at 2004-04-16 05:31:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
By the way, this is a great line:
"If I have to deal with shit, I'm going to dish shit out. If your right to be religious wakes me up at 6, then my right to be an asshole wakes you up at 4."
Submitted by youarsoghey (user info) at 2004-04-16 05:30:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I think people should make changes to tradition when necessary. In this case it seems necessary, unless it doesn't bother everyone. Is it really loud and annoying like an air-raid siren? Can you even hear it in your house?
Submitted by Herpes (user info) at 2004-04-16 05:29:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Being from Dearborn Heights (a stone's throw away from Dearborn... literally), I'd rather not hear anything at 6 A.M. Granted, I'm usually still up, but if I was sleeping, I wouldn't want to be woken up by some religious call to prayer.
However, if I had to be woken up by some religious noise pollution, well then you bet your ass I'd be driving around these neighborhoods at 4 in the morning, bumping some rap music with the windows down. Noise ordinances (for which I have gotten tickets) would have to be lifted, to cancel out the "favoritism" the islamic community would be receiving. If not, I'd be the asshole at city hall, the state capitol, or wherever the fuck I had to go to argue against it.
If I have to deal with shit, I'm going to dish shit out. If your right to be religious wakes me up at 6, then my right to be an asshole wakes you up at 4.
Great topic for discussion, or maybe it's just because it's a "local" topic.
Submitted by Lucifer_Industries (user info) at 2004-04-16 05:11:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Absolutely hipocritical. This one is a back and forth fight in my head which as no clear winner in sight. You've got essentially noise polution, but it's ancient tradition as you said. It's ancient religious tradition on top of that. However it is a tradition rooted to there having not been a better way to deliver the message to followers of Islam that it was time to stop work and pray. But, does this mean that because better methods for the delivery of the call exist, the Arabs should be forced to/or willingly abandon the tradition? The City of Detroit and Dearborn have allowed the Call to Prayer to go out already.
For additional background to everyone else on Ubersite, the Metro Detroit area is home to the largest Arab community outside of the middle east, than ANYWHERE else in the world. The McDonalds in Dearborn has it's menu in Arabic to give you an idea of the cultural rooting.
Submitted by GodChicken (user info) at 2004-04-16 04:59:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Even being where I am, I support the Muslims to have call to prayer announced. It is actually rather nice to hear, when done right. It is sung, rather than spoken. The Quran is written in poetic language. I hear it every day here, of course. 5 times a day. If there are that many in the area, then they should be allowed to have it.
People should try reading the Quran. Maybe we'd have a little better understanding of things.
Submitted by youarsoghey (user info) at 2004-04-16 04:54:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Anyway, here's my opinion:
I don't think the call to prayer should be put out. It is a noise violation. Like you said, so is a churchbell ringing.
But in this argument one must also consider tradition. It is not solely a religious tradition in America to hear churchbells ringing. The call to prayer sounds a little too obnoxious to go on.
Also, I don't get pissed off when I see a crucifix or a Star of David. I do, however, get pissed off when conservative Christians make a big stink about people trying to "pollute" their air with "heresy." A bit hypocritical, wouldn't you say?
Submitted by youarsoghey (user info) at 2004-04-16 04:50:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Very nice, Malone. Very well presented. Kicker of all ass, indeed. If this doesn't make most heated, then my name isn't Shirley. Um. Well it isn't Shirley. I'm not a woman.