Can I have a Gun please? (1761 hits)
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Submitted by <miksmix.at.talk21.com> (View user info) at 2002-08-05 07:32:25 EDT
Living in England, like most people here I see few guns. I have never fired a live ammo gun and don't really want to. I don't know if you are aware of this on the other side of the Atlantic, but our police do not carry guns as standard, only special officers and airport police carry them.
I visited Greece last year and in the airport on the way home while queuing to get into the departure lounge a police bloke carried some sort of machine gun past the queue. I was quite shocked, and the rest of the English people in the queue also seemed surprised. - You see, we just aren't used to seeing guns, not even handguns, never mind the big-ass cannon that guy was holding.
The gun laws are very strict in this country. To get a gun licence you have to have a pretty good reason. Farmers can get Shotgun licences for obvious reasons, but I reckon I would struggle to get a licence for a Desert Eagle.
I think the best way to look at it was like Billy Connerly said... "If you want to own an automatic weapon you should be asked one question 'Do you want to own an automatic weapon?' If the answer is yes, you should not be allowed to own an automatic weapon!"
I know that things on the far side of the pond are quite different. I would be interested to hear your views. Also any people from the rest of the world, what do you think???
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Submitted by Zanz38 (user info) at 2002-08-07 06:02:07 EDT (#)
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It wasn't intended as a "as of now the only ppl....", but rather in an ideal world, which i guess most ppl opinions are based it would only be farmers, police etc,
admitedly it was rather general, didn't have the brain power this morning to be specific infact still don't, The US won't change thier Law's until all the Scoccer Mom's with hold sex forcing a change in voting habbits by deception!
Submitted by poodz (user info) at 2002-08-07 06:00:57 EDT (#)
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orig it was celts and picts in britain who then spread to modern wales (an oxymoron?), scotland and ireland, not from ire to britain. the romans, various french peoples, and germans then took over.
how ironic the english are all germans and french... and who do they hate the most?? ha ha. and our german queen is even married to a greek. kebab anyone??
Submitted by toucan (user info) at 2002-08-07 05:40:42 EDT (#)
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The problem with making sweeping statements about guns taking innocent lives, and the fact that only farmer police etc, should have guns, is that there is nothing that can or will be done about it, especially in America, because they have a right to own them, and so people do.
Guns may take innocent lives, but so does every weapon known to man, and even things that aren't weapons, again i look to someone who can produce the stats, but i am sure there are a hell of a lot of deaths in cars, and they pollute, so which is worse.
Personally i think Guns are worse but I am English and do not have a gun culture, so i would use other weapons that are available, might be a little bloodier, take a bit more time, but at least you get to be up close and personal when you kill someone, takes a bit more thinking about to kill someone with two inch penknife (the biggest knife legally allowed to be carried on the streets in England)
Even the supporters for guns have to worry though when they get some nameless sod who has most likely skimmed over the string of conversations below, thought about it for a good while, felt a small warmth in his head as his brain goes into overdrive must...........think.............of.........something..........witty...........
"Guns rule" <hell yeah that is soooo cool>
twat!
Submitted by Zanz38 (user info) at 2002-08-07 03:33:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The only ppl who should be entitled to own a gun are farmers, police and the armed forces, in my humble opinion.
Nobody else has a need to own a gun,
if some bloke comes into my house wanting to steal my shit, well go ahead mate i'm insured,
if you want to wreck the joint, "Come and have a go if you think your hard enough" but i doubt you'd get very far,
You want to snatch my Kid or rape my wife, "hello chief, meet my mate billy the bat"
I like my life and I wouldn't want to see it behide bars get what i'm saying a life is a life, the only way i would kill another person was if i felt i had no other alternative otherwise i'd knock em the fuck out
Submitted by miksmix (user info) at 2002-08-07 02:53:02 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Guns also take innocent lives. I'm no hippy, but I am sure that the world would be a better place if the gun had never been invented.
Submitted by lodnem.at.yahoo.com at 2002-08-06 18:42:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
i own 'some' guns.
while i have fired all of them, i have never had to target another human being.
should the day come when someone bursts into my home attempting to take my life, i will not hesitate to put holes throughout their body until they bleed to death on my floor. (watch the carpet)
if that happens and i am still alive, perhaps i'll finish the clip on all of those who oppose my right to bear arms.
i will be proof that guns save innocent lives.
Submitted by Random Joe at 2002-08-05 15:50:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Guns rule.
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2002-08-05 13:19:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Here are some statistics:
http://ruljis.leidenuniv.nl/group/jfcr/www/icvs/data/i_VIC.HTM
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all car theft car motor bicycle burglary attempt theft robbery theft of sexual assault
crimes theft from car damage cycle theft at from personal offences and
theft burglary garages property threat
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australia
1988 27,8 2,3 6,9 8,8 ,3 1,9 4,4 3,8 ,9 5,0 7,3 5,2
1991 28,6 3,1 6,6 9,5 ,3 2,1 3,7 3,8 4,2 1,3 6,5 3,5 4,7
austria
1995 18,8 ,1 1,6 6,7 ,0 3,3 ,9 ,5 ,2 5,0 3,8 2,1
belgium
1988 17,7 ,8 2,7 6,6 ,4 2,7 2,3 2,3 1,0 4,0 1,3 2,1
1991 19,3 1,0 3,9 6,1 1,1 2,8 2,1 1,6 ,9 1,0 3,1 1,4 1,8
canada
1988 28,1 ,8 7,2 9,8 ,4 3,4 3,0 2,7 1,1 5,5 4,0 3,9
1991 28,4 1,3 7,3 8,5 ,2 3,7 3,4 2,7 3,5 1,2 5,5 3,8 4,8
1995 25,2 1,5 6,2 6,2 ,1 3,3 3,4 2,8 1,2 5,7 2,7 4,0
england & wales
1988 19,4 1,8 5,6 6,8 ,1 1,0 2,1 1,7 ,7 3,1 1,1 1,9
1991 30,2 3,7 8,6 10,6 ,4 3,0 3,0 2,9 3,5 1,1 4,2 2,1 3,8
1995 30,9 2,5 8,1 10,4 ,2 3,5 3,0 3,4 1,4 5,0 2,0 5,9
finland
1988 15,9 ,4 2,7 4,0 3,1 ,6 ,4 ,7 4,3 ,5 2,9
1991 21,2 ,7 2,9 5,6 ,3 5,0 ,6 ,6 2,6 1,0 3,4 3,7 4,4
1995 18,9 ,4 2,9 4,3 ,2 5,1 ,6 ,7 ,5 3,2 2,5 4,1
france
1988 19,4 2,4 6,0 6,4 ,6 1,4 2,4 2,3 ,4 3,6 1,1 2,0
1995 25,3 1,6 7,2 8,3 ,8 2,8 2,3 2,2 1,0 4,0 ,9 3,9
germany(west)
1988 21,9 ,4 4,7 8,7 ,2 3,3 1,3 1,8 ,8 4,0 2,8 3,1
italy
1991 24,6 2,7 7,0 7,6 1,5 2,3 2,4 1,7 1,5 1,3 3,6 1,7 ,8
malta
1996 23,1 1,1 8,4 9,9 ,3 ,2 ,8 ,7 ,4 3,6 ,3 3,3
netherlands
1988 26,8 ,3 5,2 8,2 ,4 7,5 2,4 2,6 ,8 4,4 2,6 3,3
1991 31,3 ,5 6,8 9,6 1,0 10,0 2,0 3,0 2,1 1,0 4,6 2,2 4,0
1995 31,5 ,4 5,4 9,9 ,7 9,5 2,6 3,3 ,6 6,8 3,6 4,0
new zealand
1991 29,4 2,7 6,9 7,9 ,3 4,4 4,3 3,6 4,8 ,7 5,3 2,7 5,7
northern ireland
1988 14,9 1,6 4,0 4,4 ,1 1,6 1,1 ,9 ,5 2,2 1,9 1,8
1995 16,8 1,6 3,1 6,7 1,2 1,5 1,1 ,5 2,5 1,2 1,7
norway
1988 16,4 1,1 2,8 4,6 ,3 2,8 ,7 ,4 ,5 3,2 2,2 3,0
scotland
1988 18,6 ,8 5,4 6,5 ,3 1,0 2,0 2,1 ,5 2,6 1,2 1,8
1995 25,6 1,7 6,6 9,8 ,1 1,9 1,5 2,4 ,8 4,5 1,3 4,2
spain
1988 24,8 1,4 9,6 6,6 ,8 1,1 1,6 2,1 3,1 5,2 2,3 3,1
sweden
1991 21,5 1,7 3,9 4,5 ,6 7,0 1,4 ,8 2,0 ,3 4,2 ,9 2,7
1995 24,0 1,2 4,9 4,6 ,5 8,8 1,3 1,1 ,5 4,6 2,9 4,5
switzerland
1988 15,6 ,0 1,9 4,1 1,2 3,2 1,0 ,2 ,5 4,5 1,7 1,2
1995 26,7 ,1 3,0 7,1 1,4 7,0 1,3 1,1 ,9 5,7 4,6 3,1
usa
1988 28,9 2,1 9,2 8,9 ,1 3,0 3,8 5,4 1,9 4,5 4,5 5,4
1991 26,1 2,6 7,0 8,0 ,4 2,9 3,1 3,9 4,0 1,5 5,3 2,3 4,7
1995 24,2 1,9 7,5 6,7 ,2 3,3 2,6 3,0 1,3 3,9 2,5 5,7
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the International Crime Victim Surveys, Leiden University
Notice please that the overall avg. is lower for the US than the UK - ofcourse your milage may vary with location & methodology. For example a misdemeanor offense in the US is a crime while in many European countries it does not qualify as such "due to low social impact" or some such crap. Please tell me about the insignificant social impact of having your car demolished or wallet stolen, being muggedt for instance...
Submitted by toucan (user info) at 2002-08-05 13:02:02 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Yep your right yidele, i felt safer in some places in america, but only because i know london and know what it is like, and i don't know america that well, but i still stand by the fact, until proven other wise (still waiting for the facts anyone?, that america has a higher crime rate than the U.K. and that is per person as i know there is the odd one or two people more in the states.
On the other hand you are right about the white bit in England (and especially the duelling bit, swords of course, takes more guts to strike a man down with a fine swishing rapier than a forty paces with a pistol, what what)
Some one could claim to be english, as the word is derived from Angle land, as in the angles and the saxons. So if one could trace their roots back to them then you could be purely english - which would make you german - oh the irony of it all.
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2002-08-05 12:51:14 EDT (#)
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actually I live in Europe. Having grown up & lived in the states for many years I am ( I believe ) in a position to compare. I have never had my wallet lifted while I lived in the states ( in the 4 or 5th largest city,BTW ), moreover I never felt the need to put my wallet anywhere else but my right rear pants pocket. Since my return to Europe I have been involved in a couple of brawls with pickpockets on the local bus & tram lines & have seen many other incidents including beatings & knifings. I always carry a weapon with me & I'll be damned if i let some eurotrash hooligan get away with my property. Sooner see them swimming in their fucking proletarian blood. Yes, I think it highly desirable to have weapons legaly available to all above the age of consent ( some limitations are IMHO ok, such as background criminal/insanity checks) - as it is I had to go through a long & expensive verification process in order to carry. Crime is crime, but punishment meted out is no longer what it was. Speaking of law, there was once an institution of trial by combat in both saxon & norman law - why not bring that back together with the institution of a champion....I value my personal dignity & honour more than the contents of my wallet - an attempt to take my wallet is an insult which should not be tolerated & which I punish with all means @ my disposal. In a society ruled by law there cannot be any room for tolerating the slightest infraction. Cut their arms off at the neck, I say! Legalize dueling !
BTW, England has been white since all the peoples you mentioned are, in fact, white. Don't know what you consider "english blood" ( certainly not the picts ) but all the peoples you mentioned are in fact white caucasoids...
Submitted by sonargodz <sonargodz.at.hotmail.com> at 2002-08-05 12:48:51 EDT (#)
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I meant that last response to be addressed to mixmax
Submitted by toucan (user info) at 2002-08-05 12:48:02 EDT (#)
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To my knowledge there have only been six movements of people onto the islands that now make up england scotland and wales.
1: Indo European speakers around the river Volga in southern Russia(long long time ago....)
2: Celts spread to southern England from Ireland
3: Romans invade Celtic speaking England
4: Teutonic Conquest. Jutes, Angles, Saxons and Frisians
5: Vikings invade from Denmark and Norway
6: Normans invade
Scottish are actually part of the same island, but they gave us a spanking a couple of times.
Spanish pah!
Germans pah!pah! (although they did take some of the Channel islands for a bit but they are nearer France)
Submitted by sonargodz <sonargodz.at.hotmail.com> at 2002-08-05 12:46:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
To Zans38:
Correct me if I am wrong.
The shortage of guns in Great Britian at the beginning of WWII was due to gun control laws in your country during the previous years. That is where the Sten Submachinegun came from. There was also a single shot disposable pistol that was built because there were no existing sidearms. I don't remember the name of it though. Your country begged us for guns, which we were having a problem getting to you because of German Submarines. The reason the Germans declared war on us was because we were supplying you with arms. How many American Sailors and Merchant Marines died trying to get you the weapons you needed because you had destroyed your own in the not too distant past?
History is repeated by people who do not know it.
Submitted by sonargodz <sonargodz.at.hotmail.com> at 2002-08-05 12:35:30 EDT (#)
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My Humble Opinion:
The Government is made up of corrupt people who tell lies for a living. I know that is making a broad, general statement,but should I trust them when they say that they will not create a police state if I give up my firearms? History proves otherwise. Giving up your firearms rights is giving your government absolute power over you, and you know what absolute power does. Firearms are essential to the protection of all other rights. Call me what you will, but that is what I think.
Submitted by Zanz38 (user info) at 2002-08-05 12:29:39 EDT (#)
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Oh that wasn't a UK vs US reply either!!!
Submitted by Zanz38 (user info) at 2002-08-05 12:28:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Yiddle,
Crime is crime is crime, dosen't matter which way you do it, but your talking about if you have a gun, less likely to be fucked with right? so why is there such a big gun problem? this is a honest question born outta ignorence, I live in a country where yes we do have a Gun control problem but it's not in my face, and is not part of our culture, pick pocekting has been around since pockets were first sown on to clothes and before then it was a swift cut of ya belt rope and your Boar scrotum purse was taken from your person, so thats been around for eons, and you are less likely to die via a pick pocket attack.
know what i mean???
England hasn't always been white,
Only a small % of the population can acutually claim to be pure English via thier blood line most of us are either Norweigen, German or French blood lines, as a nation we have had a lot of blood shed on our land trying to establish ourselves as a nation.
The US is only a wee bairn in comparrison to the of the world, and hasn't really had to contend with the National hassels of evolution, only a personal one.
Toucan how many invasions have been attempted and succeeded?
1. Vikings Won
2. Saxons Won
3. Romans Won but then pulled out after 2,00 years i think
4. Scotish albeit for about 10 mins? (definatly not sure about that)
5. Normans Won
6. The Spanish tried but we saw em off!! BC
7. Germans in WW2 couldn't due to the RAF, and a wee bit of help from the Allies
there must be more???
All though most of the above has nothing to with the initial post by Miks.
Submitted by toucan (user info) at 2002-08-05 12:06:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Yidele, I know speaking as a brit that this is sheer theory and that it is unlikely that anything will be resolved as to the virutes of having a Gun or not having a gun, but you used as a reason for having a gun the amount of general thugs in europe, pick pockets etc. You guy still have those as well as gun deaths and woundings. am not sure what the stats are (anyone??) but i am pretty sure that the level of "other crime" in the states is also higher than most european countries.
This is not a pop at the states, so don't anyone get on the U.K. vs U.S. band wagon. It is a comment on crime levels vs gun control. Feels weird having to say that but in the last few weeks it has become necessary.
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2002-08-05 11:55:34 EDT (#)
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It's a cultural thing.
The British colonies, followed by the United States, has always had a 'frontier' mentality (with apologies to Mr. Turner). If you lived over here, you had a gun because you needed a gun. With a very real threat of violent confrontation with native populations, a greater reliance on hunting, and more intrusive wildlife, America was a place that had more call for them. The British countryside was tame before guns were invented if you exclude the Scottish (kidding).
On top of that (or perhaps because of that), Americans have always been fairly violent and militant.
We also like to do things locally, or at least we did back then. The war against Britain was fought to some extent by local militia (the colonial army was mostly a hodgepodge of these people). In addition, the Americans didn't even trust each other...
So basically you're talking about a nation that was born from armed insurrection, in a hostile land where noone trusts anyone and the surest way of having the upper hand in a fight is to own a gun.
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2002-08-05 11:47:46 EDT (#)
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You can have one of mine ( opinions , that is). The impression I get from reading this thread is about the same as the impression I get listening to 13 year olds talking about their first piece of pussy. Sheer theory for the most part ;) IMHO Guns are cool, and should be available to anybody above the age of consent. An armed society is a polite society. Knowing that grandma can blow your fucking brains out if you try to take her purse is the foremost reason why pickpockets & strongarm men don't prosper in the US as they do in Europe. Same is true with about any type of intimidation - of course there is a price to pay for personal independance - it is called responsibility - if you abuse your constitutional freedom you ca expect to be held liable. All things considered I'd rather have a gun & not need it than need a gun & not have one. I am writing this in full knowledge of what it is to own a firearm & use it regularly - personally I've always admired the brits for this interesting duality - even during the time of the empire builders ( as E. Blair wrote ) "... It is a land where the bus conductors are good-tempered and the policemen carry no revolvers. In no country inhabited by white men is it easier to shove people off the pavement..."
Submitted by _JP (user info) at 2002-08-05 11:28:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Personally I think that no one should have guns. Straight up, THE SECOND AMENDAMENT WAS WRONG. People are not rational and responsible enough to have the power of life and death over another. Though guns wouldn't take that power away, it would make it much more difficult to kill someone.
At the same time I'm not comfortable with the idea of taking away the right to bear arms. I don't what the government to feel like it can fuck with the Bill of Rights (even though it seems to be with the recent terrorist thing). Soon and you revoke the 2nd Amendment those other 9 are in jeopardy. And if they go out the window, then the government and police will be fucking with everybody but themselves. Some kind of gun control is necessary, though.
Submitted by Zanz38 (user info) at 2002-08-05 11:25:06 EDT (#)
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or it could be Air quality
US have shite Air quality in densly populated areas where i'm sure (no facts so i won't m,ake the DD mistake;p of stating this as fact) Gun crime is high
UK London and Manchester (please correct me if this is wrong) has the worst gun crime in the UK shit air too
Switzerland feck all gun crime decent clean crisp air
makes you think!
Submitted by toucan (user info) at 2002-08-05 10:50:28 EDT (#)
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but then in Switzerland men of a certain age a required by law to own a gun as the population is their army, and apart from a slip up last year they don't have a whole lot of gun crime, so maybe it is a society thing.
U.S. has guns 10 times more gun deaths than U.K who don't have guns, who have ten times more gun deaths than Switzerland who do have guns, maybe it has to do with Cheese. Apart from the green bay packers and monteray jack the U.S. has no decent cheese, we have a few gooduns: cheddar, red leicester, a nice crunbly wensleydale and stilton, but the swiss have bloody masses of good cheeses: Apenzellar, and apenzellar reserver, Emmental (and reserve) Gruyere, Cave aged Gruyere, Le Marechal, Vignerons, Sap Sago, Sbrinz, Milk Raclette, Raclette, Tete de Moins, Vachherin Fribourgeois, to name but a few.
Ok maybe not, but i am seriously bored.
Submitted by miksmix (user info) at 2002-08-05 10:33:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Its a lot easier to pop a cap in someone's ass than physically beat them to death, or repeatedly stab someone until they are no more. Mistakes happen more quickly and more frequently when your weapon is a revolver.
Submitted by Zanz38 (user info) at 2002-08-05 10:29:29 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
which i hear is on the increase 21% up on last year, some ppl mutter we are following the Americans,
don't support that view 100% myself however with the freedoms they have over there, I'm sure the rest of the world takes the "grass is greener..." approach, even though we can see the mistakes of too much freedom for the masses.
your are right though no guns for the public domian = 0.001% gun crime for the year but then other violent crimes go up, like JDiggity said in a previous thread "Something to think about.... "
" .....is like saying if you hide the body of the victem you just murdered, no one will notice and all the problems will go away....... I read somewhere that there was a legal decision made in moscow to decrease crime: make rape no longer a criminal offense. Rapist were arrested in the same manner as usual, but the charge was filed as some other offence. Why? Now the government can tell people "We are the safest city for women - no rape!". Regardless of whether it's true or not, I hope you got my point."
Same can be said for gun crime.
Submitted by toucan (user info) at 2002-08-05 10:28:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Zanz, you ask have we ever had a "need" to bear arms, that would probably be when we were at risk of being invaded, but were have not had a lot of that through history, last actual invasion being 1066, because we are unhelpfully an island and have had a pretty good navy for most of recorded history.
The first person to be noted as having removed the right to arms was James 1. One of the grievances against James was that he had caused 'several good subjects, being protestants, to be disarmed ...' then they tried to blow him up, watch out anti-gun activists (US) 'remember remember the fifth of november'.
Submitted by miksmix (user info) at 2002-08-05 10:19:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The level of gun crime in Britain is however far far far lower than that in the USA. I think the "No Guns" tack is the right path to follow.
Submitted by toucan (user info) at 2002-08-05 10:12:30 EDT (#)
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Zanz I think the right to bear arms is probably more our forefathers fault in the first place, basically so that us english couldn't go over an try and take them back.
For there to me no gun crime you'd have to get rid of all the guns, our general population is not armed, yet we have gun crime.
Submitted by Zanz38 (user info) at 2002-08-05 10:08:16 EDT (#)
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Toucan or Mix,
Have we ever had a need to bear arms? I'm guessing the last time we ever had a need was the war of the roses. but not since then?
in WWII the masses were not given the right we had a "Dads Army" who protected us.
Submitted by zanz38 <zanz38.at.hotmail.com> at 2002-08-05 10:01:16 EDT (#)
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No Comment
Submitted by Zanz38 (user info) at 2002-08-05 09:57:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The problem I guess with our cousins is that they have been given the "Right" to carry a weapon, and they will not give it up for nobody!!
It's the same princaple for anything in life if your used to doing something or you have the access to do something if one day your told that you can not do that anymore weather you "Do it" or not, your gonna be pissed of and un-likly to comply.
Guys here's a "theoretical Question" (spelling???) if the threat of gun related crime was non-existant would there be a need for the general population to be armed?
Submitted by toucan (user info) at 2002-08-05 09:48:06 EDT (#)
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I have just got back from America and was confronted by a security guy on the door of a Champps (ignore spelling) bar, which while not freaking me out or anything like that did make me ask my friends a bit more about the laws.
As it turned out both parties were surprised, while I was aware that constitutionally it is every americans right to bear arms, i didn't know that in a lot of places around america that you are allowed guns on the street. Certainly opened my eyes.
I did try a gun the next day, after explaining to a guy why i was taking a picture in his gun shop (there were hundreds of guns everywhere) who was wearing urban combat gear, buzz cut, about 25 stone (350 llbs) and with a fucking howitzer strapped to his side, that we didn't have guns in the U.K. This confused the poor man who didn't see why a "well developed, politically sound country" did not allow people to have any guns they want, especially in their own home.
Shooting the gun was a laugh, but that is all it was and mostly because I am not allowed in my country, much like if you go to most east asian countries you can fire off a rocket for a few hundred dollars/pounds but you wouldn't want to have your neighbour end an argument with one.
In the U.K. you are not legally allowed a desert eagle, and you need a special license to keep a .22 pistol for sport use only. The right and license to own handguns for anything other than in a firing range for target sport was removed after the Dunblane massacre:
An excerpt
"The Dunblane massacre occured at Dunblane Primary School, Scotland, on March 13, 1996. Sixteen pupils and a teacher were killed and ten pupils and three teachers were injured. The perpetrator, Thomas Hamilton, having fired over one hundred rounds then killed himself.
There is even an extra verse that was added to "knockin on heaven's door" for all the music buffs out there.