Davy may get sued for 1.5 million. Whoo? (1061 hits)
Category: Business & FinancialRating: 1.33 on 43 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by David Jones <davjones.at.iastate.edu> (View user info) at 2004-08-17 17:04:19 EDT
Dear fellow Uberites,
This morning I received an email from a past employer threatening to charge me with intellectual theft, extortion, and interfering with business. Three felony charges, according to the email. I was also threatened to be sued for 1.5 million dollars to cover the loss of business. Now, I have tried to contact a lawyer, but the best I could come up with is a maybe call back tomorrow. I contacted the courthouse, and they suggested I print the email and take it to the police station.
Here is the situation:
I used to write code for this guy, we will call him Tim. Tim was a client I met in the classifieds. He was starting a new business, and wanted a website for it. We agreed on 10 dollars an hour, under the table. No written contract, just I work, upload, and get paid. Tim was a good client. He always paid me within a week of my work getting to him.
Until this summer.
Just before summer hit I made a major upload. 30 hours of my work was uploaded, and I waited eagerly for my 300 dollar check. Unfortunately it didn't come. Email after email was exchanged promising my money was coming, and that I should just keep working. For the first month I believed Tim. He was so reliable in the past. So I did more work, but did not upload it to protect myself. Eventually it became clear that payment was in fact not coming, despite emails that I still possess saying it was.
Last week I decided to go ahead and take my work back, since he did not pay for it. In place of my work I left a note saying that should my work ever be paid for, he could have it back. The following is the email I received, minus the name of the business.
Dear David Jones,
I have just returned from Toronto last night and
from our attorney this morning. I am sure you think
what you have done is cute but I am informing you that
it is criminal and unless you take the following
measures to correct what you have done you will find
out just how criminal your actions are. You have had
authority only to post courses to the "the business" website. Your using the passwords and FTP
codes to take down the website is theft of
intellectual property, a felony; your threatening
message is clear evidence of extortion, a felony; and
you have clearly deliberately interfered with the
business operations of "the business", and business
interference is also a felony.
"The business" is prepared to go to the
County Attorney this afternoon to press felony charges
on you for all three counts. What you do not know is
that because of your actions a major marketing company
backed off doing business with "the business" this
weekend directly because they saw your message Sunday
afternoon. The contract that was being negotiated was
for over $1.5 million. If that business is lost
because of your actions "the business" will sue you
and your parents in civil court for the amount lost.
The above actions will start this afternoon
unless you do the following by noon today:
1. The "the business" web site must be restored to
its working condition prior to your interference, with
all operations functioning as normal and no lost
items.
2. You must write a dated "TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN"
letter of apology to "the business" and to me that
states what you have done and that you did not realize
the criminal nature of your actions. This letter must
state that you have worked for "the business" in
the past and have always been paid in full, and that
you are sorry for any problems your actions may have
caused "the business".
3. If you have "work" that you have not posted they
must be posted by noon today and if all of the above
issues are resolved and the marketing company is not
lost because of your actions then $300 will be mailed
to you as soon as these conditions are resolved.
David, be warned. What you have done is very serious.
So, I uploaded the website the way I found it, but I will not write the dated letter stating I have always been paid in full because I haven't. I also did not post any new work, because then it too would need to be paid for.
Uber, am I fucked?
User Reviews
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2005-07-30 18:35:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
The guy finally got someone who knows something about computers and reloaded the website from backups. So he has all the work he actually paid for, and the extra bit. I considered small claims court, but in the end I decided it wasn't worth the hassle of trying to get 300 dollars out of him. Between not having concrete records of my hours and the fact I didn't pay taxes on anything I had ever been paid...
Meh. I didn't get sued, but he DID lose that particular client. The BBB score for his company is currently D+, so I guess I'd say I came out the better of us. Out some pay, but at least my credibility didn't take a hit like his.
I put all the work and emails on a CD so I'd always have them if he ever turned back up, and moved on. It may be awhile before I even consider under the table programming again though.
Submitted by c1ndy (user info) at 2005-07-28 21:51:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
so what happened?
Submitted by Electro (user info) at 2005-03-27 16:43:07 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Hope you got sued! ;)
Submitted by Matti M at 2004-09-15 19:45:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Mate, you are gonna be fine. Sue you for $1.5m? They can't - they didn't sign any contract before you did anything. Plus, they paid you under the table, that's their problem not yours.
The judge will bend them over the court bench.
Submitted by DJMattB241 (user info) at 2004-09-15 19:29:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
and yes. keep us updated!
Submitted by DJMattB241 (user info) at 2004-09-15 19:28:26 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
the way i'm seeing things is this:
the judge is going to laugh his/her ASS off at this guy.
He's paying you under the table, then STOPS paying you, sends you emails saying he knows he hasnt paid yet, those emails you still have, all over a website that you built, that you still have all of on your own computer, that they couldnt build if their lives depended on it so its OBVIOUSLY your work.
this isnt even a case.
you may not get your $300, but if not, you DEFINATELY dont have to give this guy his website.
more than likely the judge is going to tell everyone to get the hell out of the courtroom... at least thats how i see it going down.
this was over before it started. that guy was a jackass.
Submitted by Sideburns (user info) at 2004-09-15 19:08:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2004-09-15 18:59:23 (#)
Ranking: 2
Sideburns will win Madness.
Submitted by JewToast. (user info) at 2004-09-09 06:36:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Sue everyone. It's the American way.
Submitted by QueenAshlee (user info) at 2004-08-18 22:07:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
The only real issue I can see is that you can't really prove he didn't pay you, except for the emails. Good luck.
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2004-08-18 17:23:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Wow, didn't think this would get seen once it fell off the front page so I stopped coming back. Yea, I took it back down, fuck this guy. Even if he is right and I do get sued, big fucking deal, I have nothing to lose, but since I haven't heard shit from him, he's bluffing. I got ahold of a lawyer, and should have some sure fire advice soon. His client, if it exists, already saw my note saying he hadn't paid me, which is why they were going to back out, and he was going to sue me.
Since I have nothing to lose, and he has everything to lose I kind of hope he does sue me, because I think I would win, and then win the countersuit. If not, oh well.
Will update in a week or two if anything more develops.
Submitted by Brian_Johns (user info) at 2004-08-18 16:04:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The guy mentioned your parents in his letter. Based on that, I take it you live at home. Assuming that is true and you don't have a lot of assets, here's what I suggest you do:
Fuck the guy over.
He not only didn't pay you for work, but got all pissy when you took down his site and threatened you with legal action. Well fuck him. If I were you, not only would I take down the site, but contact this potential $1.5 million client (if they even exist) and tell them the guy is a con artist who doesn't pay his bills.
Best case: You fuck the guy over. He sounds like a prick who deserves it.
Worst case: He actually sues and wins. You'll have to declare bankruptcy, which isn't a big deal since you sound like you don't have a lot to lose. He can't touch your parents if they weren't part of the contract. But the guy is still fucked. He'll lose his big deal and not collect from you.
Of course, my method does kind of fuck up your reputation too, but thik about how good it will feel. There's nothing better than that feeling you get when you are looking back over your shoulder at the bridge you just burnt down.
Submitted by Walsareck (user info) at 2004-08-18 09:38:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
1) You are legaly entitled to get paid for the work you do
2) He can't sue for extortion, especially because he hasn't paid you, and, in escense, it is your money.
3) That letter/e-mail is a form of harassment
4) It is not intellectual property theft because you wrote the site yourself
5) The only real thing you should be worried about is what the actual business owned - the FTP account.
Seriously, he ain't got shit on you, mate!
Submitted by Electro (user info) at 2004-08-18 09:38:26 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
your employer cant do shit... You worked, You must be paided for your work. Otherwise, I believe that you have the right to take back all of the work you did.
Submitted by gibberish (user info) at 2004-08-18 09:36:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Good luck. Sounds like you're about to get ass-raped by the system.
Submitted by Zoidberg (user info) at 2004-08-18 09:27:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
maybe go see a lawyer to give you advice?
I'm sure a 60 dollar consult fee vs a possible 1.5 mill lawsuit is a no-brainer
from the little I remember of when I got interested in intellectual property law, it seems like you should be okay and the guy is bluffing, but go see someone with a JD to be sure
Submitted by LadyPlural (user info) at 2004-08-17 22:13:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Yep, missing a brain. But I think that you should get an actual letter from a lawyer in this case, because they want to be able to prove that you recieved said missive. I think that I smell bullshit.
Submitted by LadyPlural (user info) at 2004-08-17 22:12:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Dude- is the letter written on a lawyer's letterhead? Because it is entirely possible that he is lying about it. Hell, go to a public library and ask a librarian to assist you in finding relevant cases. If I'm missing something important (like a brain), I still say that you should report him to somebody for something.
Submitted by QueenAshlee (user info) at 2004-08-17 20:31:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
How many people saw it though? However unlikely, it is possible that he could get whatever client he was talking about to testify that it was there.
The more I learn about this, the more it seems like you SHOULD be ok. I don't think that they have a great case, since you -did- return the website to its origonal state, and I don't really think they can get 1.5 mil off you over a letter. However, I'd advise you to write it anyway, just to cover your ass. I don't really think they'll take it that far, but you never know. You might try working out some kind of arrangement, like, maybe you could meet him in person and trade the letter for the check, as insurance? Or, insist that he mail the check and you'll email the letter upon reciept of the money, since it should be obvious to anyone directly involved in the situation (including him) that you're the more credible between the two of you.
Hope that helps.
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2004-08-17 20:15:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
That note is gone now, and the guy is computer illiterate. I am 100% sure he does not have it backed up, so that may be neglible.
Submitted by QueenAshlee (user info) at 2004-08-17 20:14:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
that's not so good.
Like I said, your best bet is to do what they asked, then take them to small claims court if they don't pay you. HOWEVER, if you had removed the work without leaving that little note, they probably couldn't have proved it was you and you'd be home free. The more you know.
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:44:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I have no proof of how long it took me to do anything, no. Server logs may show something, but since I wasn't always logged into the server, unlikely.
Submitted by QueenAshlee (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:43:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
See now that helps.
Do you have any way of proving how long any of your work actually took you?
Submitted by Donitsu2002 (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:42:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:39:23 (#)
Ranking: 0
I have emails where "Tim" says he knows he owes me, and the money will be coming to me shortly...granted these are months old now.
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if it was 5 years they wouldn't hold up, however since they're only months old, they'll work just fine.
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:39:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I have emails where "Tim" says he knows he owes me, and the money will be coming to me shortly...granted these are months old now.
Submitted by QueenAshlee (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:37:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
But they weren't necessarily all $300 or even close. PLUS, like I said, (I'm assuming) he has no way to prove that those hours went unpaid. Especially since he WAS paid in the past. The judge might not buy that they suddenly just stopped paying him unless he can back it up.
Submitted by Donitsu2002 (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:27:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by QueenAshlee (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:18:00 (#)
Ranking: 0
"your coding during the time of your employment that wasn't paid is technically your intellectual property, they have no right to it unless they've paid you. Secondly, they're not allowed to pay you under the table if it's over 10 weeks of work (3k is the max) and you can report them to the better business bureau for that."
Yeah, but since it was under the table, and I'm assuming he didn't log his hours by what he did, he can't PROVE that they didn't pay him. Plus, yeah, he can report them, but then he'll be admitting that he accepted it, and he's fucked there too.
How did you log your hours for them? Did you specify how long each individual code took you or did you just upload, say "this took me so long" and wait for your check? They can always say that they paid you for all hours, like you completed certain things faster than you actually did. Basically, it's your word against theirs, unless one of you had proof.
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His bank should have a record of him cashing depositing his 300$ checks regularly, and he wouldn't be so screwed as long as he said he would pay his own taxes on that money and claimed it.
Submitted by QueenAshlee (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:18:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"your coding during the time of your employment that wasn't paid is technically your intellectual property, they have no right to it unless they've paid you. Secondly, they're not allowed to pay you under the table if it's over 10 weeks of work (3k is the max) and you can report them to the better business bureau for that."
Yeah, but since it was under the table, and I'm assuming he didn't log his hours by what he did, he can't PROVE that they didn't pay him. Plus, yeah, he can report them, but then he'll be admitting that he accepted it, and he's fucked there too.
How did you log your hours for them? Did you specify how long each individual code took you or did you just upload, say "this took me so long" and wait for your check? They can always say that they paid you for all hours, like you completed certain things faster than you actually did. Basically, it's your word against theirs, unless one of you had proof.
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:14:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Ok, so it seems like I'm fine. This dipshit didn't change his server passwords, so my intellectual property is being taken off of it.
Submitted by QueenAshlee (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:12:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Do what they ask, and then take them to small claims court for the amount they owe you. Honestly, it's the only way you'll get out of this cleanly. You could try just going to court with them, but that's risky.You may not like or believe me, or whatever, and I'm not a lawyer, but I was in pre-law before I lost my grant for school, so I know a little about a little.
Submitted by Donitsu2002 (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:12:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:01:53 (#)
Ranking: 2
if you don't make a car payment, they take your car away, right?
you're not fucked, they are. they didn't pay you, so you have every right to take your work back at any time they allowed you access to it, and i stress that part. if you had explicit access, you have every right to take it back. tell them you will counter-sue for wages earned that were not paid and make sure you let them know you will also be asking for damages because you did not get that money you were counting on.
good luck.
ps- i talked to Jewtoast a few minutes ago after i read your story and he said he would take your case, but you're not rich or powerful, so you'll have to hire some two-bit hack of a lawyer.
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he's right actually, your coding during the time of your employment that wasn't paid is technically your intellectual property, they have no right to it unless they've paid you. Secondly, they're not allowed to pay you under the table if it's over 10 weeks of work (3k is the max) and you can report them to the better business bureau for that.
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-17 19:01:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
if you don't make a car payment, they take your car away, right?
you're not fucked, they are. they didn't pay you, so you have every right to take your work back at any time they allowed you access to it, and i stress that part. if you had explicit access, you have every right to take it back. tell them you will counter-sue for wages earned that were not paid and make sure you let them know you will also be asking for damages because you did not get that money you were counting on.
good luck.
ps- i talked to Jewtoast a few minutes ago after i read your story and he said he would take your case, but you're not rich or powerful, so you'll have to hire some two-bit hack of a lawyer.
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2004-08-17 18:25:42 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Yes, I know I am an idiot. I had nothing better to do at the time, and it was fairly easy work, so I was basically working for peanuts without a contract because I figured 10/hr > 0/hr. I kind of figured I was in the clear since there was no contract, and I was not paid, but was unsure of whether I should go ahead and get a lawyer. From the sounds of things, my original feeling of being in the clear is correct. Should I go ahead and take the website back down maybe?
Where is Jewtoast when you need him?
Kai toss me an email davjones.at.iastate.edu and I'll think about it, but it kind of depends on how this fiasco works out.
Looks like I made a uber newb friend, hi Geofroley. I think you would have to compete with Loren on party dibs, and she is way cooler than you. At least she would let me attend and wear a dunce cap in a dunk tank.
Submitted by GhostWriter (user info) at 2004-08-17 18:08:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
You're not fucked. You have all the emails, proving that he has not paid you. But then again, you don't have a written contract (woops). Anyway, get a good lawyer and I'm sure you'll be fine. Good luck ol' Davy.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2004-08-17 17:31:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Admittance in court that you took $10 under the table (if it was before December 31, 2003) could nail you with tax evasion also.
This person is obviously using what he can to muscle you around. Better fight back somehow by returning the favor.... like "You have never paid me. You owe me $20,000 per our verbal agreement and if you wish to challenge me in court I will countersue that you have not paid $20,000 and this is why I have taken my work back. Do you have a receipt showing that you have paid me? No. Why? Because you didn't.
Submitted by kai070169 (user info) at 2004-08-17 17:25:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
You are an idiot, why do you let people fake you out like that? Take it all down again, and let him know that unless you get your $310 (extra $10/hr. for the up & down), he gets nothing on his site. If he doesn't have $300 to pay you, he doesn't have a lawyer on retainer nor could he get one on the spec of suing your impoverished ass.
There is no way he can prove anything, period end of story. No prosecutor would touch it, and no judge would permit this argument in their court. You can drive a plane through the holes in this argument...
Hey, I need a cheap web designer...
Submitted by dwr_budr (user info) at 2004-08-17 17:23:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Also, the reason he wants you to write a letter stating that you have worked for him in the past and have always been paid is that he doesn't actually have a contract with you, nor does he have evidence of your employment under him (under the table employment is illegal, btw).
Just going on that letter as evidence, I would say rather than having a legitimate action against you he is simply trying to intimidate you into giving him what he wants.
Submitted by Shit_Flinging_Ape (user info) at 2004-08-17 17:21:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Tell him you would be more than happy to go to court and hear him explain how you got complete and total access to the system.
Judge- Mr. Slimeball, how is it that DJ was able to access your site and do such damage?
Slimeball- Well, your honor, I hired him.
DJ- Remember, your honor, that I did what I did because he didn't pay me.
Judge- Mr. Slimeball, can I see the cancelled checks or pay receipts that show DJ acted with malice only after you paid him in full, as per your agreement?
Slimeball- Well, I, uhhhh...
Judge- Mr. Slimeball, do you have your checkbook with you? I'm sure we can resolve this matter right now.
DJ- Thanks, your honor!
Submitted by dwr_budr (user info) at 2004-08-17 17:17:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Anyone who threatens legal action and then says they won't sue if you apologize is full of shit.
Take him to the People's Court.
Submitted by geofroley (user info) at 2004-08-17 17:11:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
If you are, I'm throwing a party. Everyones invited except Fetish.
Submitted by ChristPuncher (user info) at 2004-08-17 17:07:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Bullshit
I hope they sue your ass anyway
GO BEARS WOO!!!
Submitted by Degreeless_Capibara (user info) at 2004-08-17 17:07:26 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
One word: Jewtoast
Submitted by RideJohnnyRide (user info) at 2004-08-17 17:06:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Uber, am I fucked?
=====================================
Sure looks that way, but good luck!
Submitted by spedmonkey (user info) at 2004-08-17 17:06:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Better consult Jewtoast.