Kerry, Bush and Vietnam (938 hits)
Category: PoliticsRating: 0.38 on 45 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by acrog (View user info) at 2004-08-25 17:04:09 EDT
Who gives a shit anyway.
I mean, honestly, did the type of service that either of them did better prepare either one of the for the presidency?
Kerry - a riverboat captain - How many men were under his command? no more than 6-10 at a time, I'm guessing. How often does a president need to use riverboat combat tactics?
Bush - a fighter pilot in the National Guard - the closest he gets to using the skills he aquired in this job are when he is a passenger on Air Force One.
Why does Kerry bring it up in every speach?
There are plenty of other topics to argue or points to contrast with Bush.
Why does he keep blubbering about Vietnam?
Is his experience in Vietnam really going to get him more votes?
Does it make him a better military leader?
The way I see it the fact that they were both IN the military makes it a wash.
To me it make Kerry seem like he's got nothing.
The only other point that he really touched on seriously was the ecconomy. But every ecconomist in the country will tell you that the ecconomy has made a trmendous turn around over the last year.
So, with that one down the only thing Kerry can harp on is military service?
Give me a fucking break! he's missing the "boat" (accidental pun)
And from what I've been reading, Kerry's account of his military record is more questionable than Bush's. We all know Bush's is questionable. But at least Bush isn't trying to shut anyone up about questioning it. Kerry is. This only makes it look worse, like he IS hiding something.
He's picking the wrong fight, and IMO it will cost him the election because of wasted breath.
User Reviews
Submitted by honeycake (user info) at 2004-09-20 13:51:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
FAKE
Submitted by Death_Metal_Dude (user info) at 2004-08-27 03:41:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"A cocky feeling of invincibility accompanied us up the Long Tau shipping channel because we hadn't been shot at yet, and Americans at war who haven't been shot at are allowed to be cocky,"
Way to selectively quote, Washington Times. If the next line in that diary was "We shouldn't have been so cocky because we ran into some Viet Cong, had a firefight, and I got schrapped by my poorly aimed grenade," then the whole point is moot, and the article misleading. Of course, I don't know what the hell else he wrote in his diary, but the verb tense of the above quote conveys an ambiguity from which a conclusion cannot be drawn.
Submitted by glasscpp (user info) at 2004-08-26 13:00:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
acrog:
"Hidden,
I'll pose your own question to you.
What are 5 reasons you would vote for Kerry?
Do not include reason that have anything to do with getting Bush out.
Just five reason you would like to see Kerry in office.
I'm honestly curious."
Ok time to play the devil's advocate:
acrog,
Could you please do the same for Bush (that is who you are for, right)?
...and are you for Bush or against Kerry, I really can't tell reading the reviews.
I'm seriously on the fence between the two, but would like to see facts that I can understand.
I've been trying to sort through some sites, but am not too literal when it comes to politics so I'm having some difficulty decifering what mean what. Anyone with some decent links for me, please?
Thanks,
glasscpp
Submitted by acrog (user info) at 2004-08-26 10:13:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Death_Metal_Dude
here's the link:
Submitted by acrog (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:59:38 (#)
Ranking: 0
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040825-125217-7993r.htm
It's not a matter of service, it's a matter of whether he is portraying what happened honestly.
He did the service, he say some combat, there is no arguing that. But is he giving an honest account, or giving us a fishing story.
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-26 02:13:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
DJretard:
i had no idea Lisa hated you, motherfucker. the reason i said that is because i read what you write and i think you're a fucking idiot AND a piece of shit loser. newsflash: you're not a DJ. you're a guy who makes shitty CD compilations and plays them. i taught my four year old cousin how to do that. oh, and you date high school girls. that's sick shit, motherfucker. aren't you 21? and i can assure you i've got more brains than muscle, but i've got enough to kick your fucking scrawny ass all over the place.
motherfucker.
you are one motherfucker i would actually get on a plane for to come beat the life out of you.
Submitted by DJMattB241 (user info) at 2004-08-26 00:55:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:34:28 (#)
Ranking: 0
hey Matt, have YOU ever fought in a war? oh yeah, you're too busy playing CDs with dance music on them and dating teenage girls to do that stuff.
--------------------
Look you fucking asshole, just because you're dating a girl that hates me doesnt give you reason to throw cheap shots my direction. I thought you were a little more man than that. But nope... guess you'll just back up whatever the brainy part of your relationship thinks, huh? All muscle, no brain... good thing you're dating her. Hows THAT for a cheapshot, bitch?
Fuck you asshole.
--------------------
On a lighter note, acrog matt.at.djmattb241.com is my addy. hit me up man!
Submitted by Judoka (user info) at 2004-08-25 23:34:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
When I take my "I Voted" sticker, I'll have the right to speak out on these issues. Until then, I, like so many other millions of Americans, just haven't earned it.
domenad the lines above are from the post in question. Did you mean what you wrote or were you blowing smoke?.
And your mocking reply/question was Clintonian in its parsing.
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2004-08-25 22:43:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Judoka, read more closely. I said there would be no more political posts from me. I haven't done a political post. I have REPLIED, but not posted. I'm still allowed to talk with people about politics, no?
Submitted by cigar (user info) at 2004-08-25 21:57:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I'm so fucking sick of politics, and each side throwing shit at the other.
Submitted by Death_Metal_Dude (user info) at 2004-08-25 21:34:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"See if you have the balls to address what I said - Kerry himself has admitted that he received NO enemy fire during the period that he was awarded his first purple heart. This would indicate that he obtained that purple heart fraudulently."
Can you link me to where he said that?
Submitted by Judoka (user info) at 2004-08-25 21:22:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
First off domenad didnt you post about how you were staying away from politcal post until after the election? The fact is you didnt vote renders anything you say worthless.
As to the issue at hand, the way I see it Kerry has the upper hand in this arguement. Take away Kerry's medals and Bush's service record their was one person was 'in country', facing enemy attack.
Submitted by BLITZKREIG_BOB (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:44:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
This should be a non-issue.
It has no relevance.
On a side note, I saw Dick Cheney today.
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:42:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
domenad, i'm ignoring you. all you do it call people stupid because they don't agree with you. seriously, i'm ignoring you from now on, and i suggest you do the same for me, because anything you say to me will be a waste.
acrog asked me to give examples. i gave them. i didn't call him stupid or say he can't argue his point worth a shit. get over yourself.
<ignore>
domenad
</ignore>
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:39:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
well, i told you i was done, but i will entertain your question.
the thing is, Bush supporters are wildly distorting facts in order to "define" Kerry before the public gets a fair chance to get to know him. well, i wanted to get to know him, so i watched him speak in St. Louis, and here are the things i liked about what he said...
Kerry wants to make change for this country. Kerry spoke about what he wants to do with THIS country, while all Bush does is talk about Iraq. i could a flying fuck about Iraq. i don't care if Iraq sank into the earth, yet he's spending MY tax money to kill people over there. and for what? i'm not fucking worried about Iraqis crashing a plane into my house or parking outside where i work with a car bomb.
Kerry talks about education. education is so important, and it's sad that most people don't even realize how badly this country's educational system needs to be reformed. most of my friends from other countries are very bright, and when i ask them how they know so much, they always say "my country has a very good educational system." i want that for America. Kerry says it's one of his focuses.
this country's economy is so fucking terrible right now that many people are struggling. i can't find a job and i'm more than qualified to do the jobs i apply for. we need some economic growth. Kerry says he's going to do something about it. maybe he will, maybe he won't, but i can tell you who isn't doing anything but making it worse, and that's Bush.
Kerry said he wants to stop companies from outsourcing. that's good for me, because so many of the jobs i want are being sent over to India. outsourcing is not good for this country. and yes, i know, domenad- you can save lots of money by hiring Mexicans. but the point is, i respect corporations who care about this country more than putting a family out on the street so they can save money by putting a Mexican in that position instead.
he also wants to stop tax breaks for large corporations and make them more accountable by getting rid of their tax havens. i'm all for it. if you make lots of money, that means more tax money, which helps this country. our society is one created to "share the wealth" if you will. when large corporations screw us out of millions of tax money, i get mad. i'm a good citizen, and i pay my taxes. they should, too. afterall, they live in mansions and have yachts. i can barely afford one crappy car.
on national defense, Kerry wants to strengthen alliances with countries that Bush has pushed away. Clinton did a great job with foreign relations and Kerry wants to bring that back. we can't defend this country if everyone is against us. Bush just charged into Iraq (for reasons still unbeknownst to us all) without approval from the UN, and pissed everyone off. i don't feel safer knowing that Iraqis are dying (come on, the insurgents are giving their lives because they want us out. doesn't that tell you anything?) and billions of American tax dollars were spent to do it. when i have an enemy, i have always found it a lot easier to sleep at night knowing i have friends that would help protect me if i needed help. i don't want a useless color coded alert system. i want a President that is going to be smarter about national defense. fraud, waste, and abuse is not my idea of national defense.
health care has skyrocketed under Bush. i'm jobless right now, but i still need to see a doctor. i'm having trouble paying my bills. Kerry has a plan that will "lower family premiums by up to $1,000 a year, cut waste from the system, lower the cost of prescription drugs (which are fucking EXPENSIVE when you don't have much money like me), and use targeted tax cuts to extend affordable, high-quality coverage to 95 percent of Americans, including every child."
as far as the environment goes, Kerry said he was going to help improve things, and i believe him. look at his record. he's already been doing so all along. everything Bush does fucks up the environment to make more money for people who already have more money than you and i will ever have. i don't have time to explain it all, but feel free to look it up on google, or read about it in Harpers, or whatever source you choose. the environment is important. if we destroy it, that means we can't sustain life on this planet. and trust me, it is being destroyed at an alarming rate. if you don't believe me, there are plenty of reliable sources out there that can explain it.
i could keep going, but like i said, i don't have the time. i have some things to take care of. sorry i couldn't say more. i'll be back later to keep going.
Submitted by The_Walrus (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:16:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
By engaging in combat, it shows that Kerry knows what goes on if he declares war on another country. Being through vietnam he knows the terrors and the actual human lives that are lost in a war, that way he can better evaluate if its TRULY worth fighting over.
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:14:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
What I'm telling you is this is the sentiment behind your candidate. It's not some guy's random website - it's the prevailing sentiment by the democrats concerning Kerry. And it's not a formula to win an election. If Kerry does win, you're going to be so dissatisfied with him, I will be laughing all four years. Kerry isn't going to change a thing in Iraq. He's not going to get his tax increase passed - the guy doesn't have an ounce of political will. In 19 years in the Senate, there's not ONE piece of legislation that he has authored, revised, and passed through both houses to be signed into law, NOT ONE.
Hidden, you are so incredibly weak, in spirit, in argument, in intellect, in execution, I can't possibly believe you were a military man. I guess somebody has to peel the potatoes.
See if you have the balls to address what I said - Kerry himself has admitted that he received NO enemy fire during the period that he was awarded his first purple heart. This would indicate that he obtained that purple heart fraudulently.
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:06:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Death_Metal_Dude (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:03:35 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:55:49 (#)
Ranking: 2
<a bunch of bullshit about a website>
Really dome? You consider some random guy's website a point of debate? REALLY?
==================================================================================
see what i mean, dommey? domenad makes himself look dumber with each new political debate around here.
Submitted by acrog (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:06:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Hidden,
I'll pose your own question to you.
What are 5 reasons you would vote for Kerry?
Do not include reason that have anything to do with getting Bush out.
Just five reason you would like to see Kerry in office.
I'm honestly curious.
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:05:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:55:49 (#)
Ranking: 2
By the way, Hidden, how the fuck do you expect to win an election with websites like this being made for your candidate:
www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com
Is that the enthusiasm you have for your presidential pick? You think THAT'S going to win? I'm guessing dem turnout is going to be surprisingly low.
=============================================================
nice argument, domenad. too bad it was completely invalid.
if you're worried about things like media and websites, how the fuck do you expect Bush to win with movies like Fahrenheit 9/11? it takes about a day to make a website like that. i could do that on a lazy afternoon. how long do you think it takes to make a whole movie?
Submitted by Death_Metal_Dude (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:03:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:55:49 (#)
Ranking: 2
<a bunch of bullshit about a website>
Really dome? You consider some random guy's website a point of debate? REALLY?
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:01:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
you'll take experience over promises? experience with what? running this country shittier than anyone has done so far?
although i view my vote for Kerry as a vote to get Bush out, i also have faith in him. i saw him in St. Louis and i liked what i heard. i continue to research him and i like what i find. at first it was a vote against Bush for me. i'd vote for a monkey if it meant getting Bush out, but the fact is, Kerry has come on quite strong these past few months and i think he's the man for the job. i'm not saying anything else about it. i'm tired of politics and i'm tired of people like domenad being a dick about it.
Submitted by ParlorTrick (user info) at 2004-08-25 18:00:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Cheers to Loki and Hidden.
Submitted by acrog (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:59:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040825-125217-7993r.htm
It's not a matter of service, it's a matter of whether he is portraying what happened honestly.
He did the service, he say some combat, there is no arguing that. But is he giving an honest account, or giving us a fishing story.
Submitted by Death_Metal_Dude (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:56:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"That's exactly what I want to hear Kerry talk about. I wish he WOULD stop focusing on petty shit"
By not responding to the frothing critics, he would validate their claims.
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:55:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
By the way, Hidden, how the fuck do you expect to win an election with websites like this being made for your candidate:
www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com
Is that the enthusiasm you have for your presidential pick? You think THAT'S going to win? I'm guessing dem turnout is going to be surprisingly low.
Submitted by icarus1987 (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:55:29 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
loki:
kick ass. One thing I'm getting sick of in this day and age is the shear wishy-washiness of the voting public. "Well, Bush might not have been lying about the WOMD, well, they might have accidentally trashed his military records without his knowledge..." blah blah blah. The man, systematically, has made the wrong choice in just about any given situation. He's polarized the nation, he flubbed a war, and I wouldn't be surprised if he ate harp seals. Any alternative is a preferable alternative.
Submitted by acrog (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:53:19 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"stop focusing on petty shit like this, and start worrying about what he's going to do for this country as a President"
That's exactly what I want to hear Kerry talk about. I wish he WOULD stop focusing on petty shit.
Don't get me wrong, I see serving in the military as one of the most honorable things a citizen can do. My hat is off to anyone who has served. I have the utmost respect.
I think that the arguement that Kerry isn't being honest about his wartime experience isn't a direct attack on his service itself, but more they're trying to point out that there is evidence that he is just not being completely honest. That he is not a trustworthy man. That if he is lying about that, what else will he lie about.
Who do I believe? I don't know, I don't know the people giving accounts on either side of the arguement.
Hidden, are you voting FOR Kerry or AGAINST Bush? Neither are fantastic.
Personally, I'll take experience over promises.
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:49:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Loki, have you picked up a newspaper in the past three days? It's already been uncovered that Kerry was awarded his first purple heart during a period which he admits in his own biography he had never come under enemy fire. In other words, he obtained his first purple heart fraudulently, his key to escaping Vietnam.
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:45:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
loki with the voice of reason.
Submitted by runninginplace (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:44:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
No Comment
Submitted by Death_Metal_Dude (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:40:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: -1
"a crop duster protecting Texas from Charley"
bahahahahahahahahahahhaah
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:36:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Oh jebus.
Ok, the reason that Kerry keeps bringing up his military service is because Bush has been singing this song and dance that he is better qualified to protect the country from whatever threat he's going to wave around. This is pretty good game theory really. If people are feeling insecure, they are more likely to stick with the status quo. "The devil you know" if you will. Kerry who was a real veteran and knows first hand what it's like to be in a real war and not a pretend on in a crop duster protecting Texas from Charley had to redirect. He is in a unique position to do so considering that he volunteered for service and has the war record to prove it, also not bad gaming theory.
Look at it this way, when Bush first started the push for war he managed to throw the country into a whole tail spin of "support our troops". Somehow "support our troops" meant "send them into a war without a plan to win the peace or an exit strategy..."
Recall the pouring out of French wine and bashing Dixie Chicks cd's?
Yea well turns out the French were right. I hate it when the French are right and despise Bush for putting us into an hat in our hands position with those arrogant assholes.
As for the Swift Boat Posers, why do you believe what they say when they can't prove a single one of their claims? Kerry's military record has stood for 30 years, if you question that then you have to question all of the military records since 1776. This shit with them has nothing to do with what actually happened in Nam. What they have their camos in a thither over is the fact that when Kerry came back from Nam, he protested the war. Well guess what, he was right to do so. That war was bullshit just like the war on Iraq is bullshit. They see his speaking out against the war atrocities as him being a traitor to the people who served. Bullshit, whistleblowers are heroes not traitors. The people who committed those atrocities are the real traitors and I have to wonder just what it is those guys actually did over there that they are defending people who raped and burned down villages for sport. I hate to accuse anyone of anything, but if you are going to identify yourself so closely with war criminals I have to wonder.
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:35:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Thank the Lord, someone finally said it. Vietnam in this case is basically a non-issue. In Kerry's case, it could only hurt him - he denigrated the service of other Americans. If he had stayed solely on the issues, he might have had a chance. Looks like four more years, dems. Are you ready?
Submitted by NetProphet (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:34:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
+2 for the pic alone. I am so tired of politics on Ubersite.
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:34:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
hey Matt, have YOU ever fought in a war? oh yeah, you're too busy playing CDs with dance music on them and dating teenage girls to do that stuff. plus, i bet you wouldn't make it through any basic training for any branch, despite Navy and Air Force are cake.
go Bush, indeed...
maybe you're tired of hearing about Kerry being in Vietnam. well, suck it up. there's a lot more bullshit i'm tired of hearing from Bush. if you don't want to hear Kerry talking about it anymore, vote for him. he'll probably never say another word about it if he's elected. anyone that says Kerry is a douche for talking about his service can kiss my fuckin' ass. i'm proud to have served in the military, and i'm betting he's really proud that he went a step further by getting commissioned as an officer and fought in a war that Americans were getting waxed like crazy. stop focusing on petty shit like this, and start worrying about what he's going to do for this country as a President, because i can tell you this- there's no way it can get worse than Bush. i've never been unhappier with this country under his administration. i've seen so many things fucked up by Bush, i'm fucking disgusted. you can say Kerry sucks all you want, but you can't say he'd be a bad President unless you can tell the future. if you can, tell me if i'm going to be rich or die young. the thing is, i can say all i want about Bush because his performance is possibly the worst of any President in the history of this country. if you like Bush so much, let's hear some reasons why. if you can come up with more than five valid ones, i'll shake your fucking hand. and i said VALID. i don't want to hear your worthless OPINIONS, because opinions don't get the fucking job done. don't tell me "you believe" Bush is the only one that can protect us from the big bad terrorists, or that "you think" he's a fucking philanthropist because he helped out all the poor Iraqis, because those are opinions, and opinions are like assholes. everyone's got one.
Submitted by acrog (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:27:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Hey Matt,
drop me an email I don't have one that works to get to you
Submitted by I_Have_a_Kristen_Fetish (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:24:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
No Comment
Submitted by DJMattB241 (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:19:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
hey man! long time no see! go check out my latest post! http://www.ubersite.com/m/42852
i would have just ignored this whole swift boat thing, but see, kerry was basing most of his credibility on his performance in 'nam. So now everyone he's ever served with, minus one guy, say he's full of shit.
The guy that wrote the book "Unfit for Command" where he interviewed all these guys, he was on Hannity and Colmes last night, said that up until like last friday, he had never even SPOKEN to a member of the current administration, or a big member of the republican party.
ah well. go bush. so anyways, how ya been, man?
Submitted by hidden101 (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:19:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
wow, i had no idea Kerry and Bush were in such tip-top shape! they are always wearing suits to cover up their rippled physiques. look at those guns!
Submitted by acrog (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:17:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"probably because he paid the swift boat vets,"
kinda like Kerry pays of MoveOn.org, right?
Submitted by RamJetMax (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:16:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
good observation.
Submitted by acrog (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:15:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"Also, how'd you deduce that Bush didn't try to hide his own records?"
that's not what I said.
Bush didn't try to pressure media outlets into not airing the opposing viewpoint.
Whether or not he had something to do with the 'Damaged' records of his own, I have no idea.
Submitted by acrog (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:11:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by youarsoghey (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:10:25 (#)
Ranking: 1
Well it is sort of a moot point. Some people we don't know say one thing. Some other people we don't know say another thing. Nobody cares. Move on.
---------------------------------------
exactly my point
Submitted by icarus1987 (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:11:39 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
meh... actually, Bush is the one trying to shut people up about Kerry's records... probably because he paid the swift boat vets, or let them borrow his daughters for a night. Also, how'd you deduce that Bush didn't try to hide his own records?
Submitted by youarsoghey (user info) at 2004-08-25 17:10:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Well it is sort of a moot point. Some people we don't know say one thing. Some other people we don't know say another thing. Nobody cares. Move on.