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I Make My Triumphant Return With A Story About Arguing With Hippies (984 hits)

Category: General

Rating: 1.28 on 42 reviews (Rate this item) (V)

Submitted by Quartermain (View user info) at 2004-09-15 11:29:28 EDT

I have a friend who occasionally does some work for the Democratic Party here in Minnesota. The DFL is having to work increasingly hard to remain relevant in a state they used to own lock, stock, and barrel and they have increasingly turned to college venues and the 'youth voter demographic' i.e. 'people too young to know better.' My friend had organised a small, informal, debate/rally at a local coffee shop but at the last minute, her 'fascist demagogue' had backed out and she asked me (knowing that I love coffee and arguing politics in equal amounts and am often accused of 'fascist demagoguery' by people who have lost said arguments) if I would fill in. And then bribed me with lunch.

Which is how I found myself at her favourite lefty coffee shop drinking Organically-Grown Socialist Utopia Peace Coffee. (FYI, it tasted almost exactly like Starbuck's Soulless Corporate Oppressor coffee, which I have to admit is a wee bit saltier. Must the tears of the ground down proletariat.) I find my friend, and she tells me they'll be ready in about forty-five minutes. So I amuse myself by wandering around and looking at the 'art' on the walls. (Apparently truly heroic amounts of hallucinogens were involved). I see these fliers being passed out by the guy who'll be the opposition, so I go over and take one.

The flyer is topped with a Photoshop picture of President Bush with devil horns, holding a name sign that reads 'George W. Fascist' in mug-shot fashion and the headline reads 'WAR CRMINAL STEALS COUNTRY, OPPRESSES CITIZENS!!' I'm reading it and I realise that the text of the flyer has been lifted word for word from a hysterically leftist email forward that I received a couple of weeks ago from a friend who thought I'd think it was funny. I take the flyer to the public library down the street and twenty minutes of research and five minutes of eighth-grade math and I'm ready to go.

I get back to the coffee shop just in time and take my seat on the little stage they have set up. My opponent gets up to say his piece first and he just looks the Compleat Leftist, from his sandals to his dreadlocks. Note to white people with dreadlocks: Stop it. You look like an idiot. We all know you're not Rastafarian; you're just a stoner who still lives in your parent's basement. Can we not let black people have one thing to themselves? We stole hip-hop from them (although God knows why, musically, it's the equivalent of stealing a dirty diaper) and we made it completely irrelevant. Early hip-hop (and by early I don't mean 1998) was just as obnoxious, but at least it was honest, and not manufactured shit made by studio gangsters. Let them have their hairstyle. You feel the need to do something weird and different to your hair, try washing it.

But I digress.

So Abie Hoffman says his piece(reads off his flyer)and sits down with a very smug look on his face (much like Col. Sanders, who knows you're going to buy his chicken) and I get up to respond.
I look down at my notes and, amid the cat-calls and rude comments; I pick him to pieces point by point. It was a thing of beauty.

'I notice that my opponent has brought up the President's drunken-driving conviction', I say, 'I don't know, if I belonged to a political party that claimed Ted Kennedy as one of it's leading lights, I would be un-inclined to throw stones at the glass house of drunk driving. We could ask Mary Jo Kopechne her opinion of the matter, but she was unable to join us, due to a slight case of death.'

Dead silence.

'He also states that President Bush has had 15 million people protest against him, which is more than any other world leader in the history of mankind.' I notice a pretty girl at a nearby table and wink at her. She gives me a dirty look and pointedly takes the hand of the girl next to her. Oh well. 'The history of mankind. Now that's a long damn time. I imagine you must have done a hell of a lot of research to be able to make a statement like that. What sources did you use?' 'What?' he says. 'Your sources.' I say, 'Where did you find this information?' 'Oh. Ummm...the Internet.' he says. 'Really. I was unaware the entire history of mankind can be found on the Internet. I'll have to remember that the next time I need to look something up. Speaking of, I read something on the Internet the other day about how secret races of lizard men live under Antarctica and they and men from Atlantis help the Jews control the world. Maybe it was written by the same guy you got your information from.'

I hear a few snickers and Che Guevara starts to look like he might have gotten a bad burrito.

'I believe that he also referred to the Iraqi War as 'the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.' Actually, during the Hundred Years War between England and France, every major battle of that war, during those hundred years, was preceded by a diplomatic mission who tried to stop it. I think that might qualify as a slightly larger failure of diplomacy in world history.'

I pick up the flier and look at it. 'It's a nice picture though. It's just too bad that your grasp of history isn't on par with your ability to color within the lines.' This pisses him off. He stands up and says 'You talk a lot about facts and sources and stuff, but I don't hear any from you either, just smart-ass comments. Let's hear some of those facts and sources you like so much.'

At this point it's all I can do not to laugh like Victor Frankenstein as he watches his creation twitch on the slab. 'I've got some facts and sources for you, pal. Watch and learn. You claim that in President Bush's first year in office that 2 million jobs were lost, and that that trend continues every month. I take that sentence to mean that you state that 2 million jobs are lost each month, correct?' 'Yeah', he says, 'Bush is destroying this country with his greed.' 'Well, see here's the thing' I say. 'If 2 million jobs were lost from Jan. of 2001 to Jan. of 2002 and then two million jobs were lost a month from Jan 2002 to August of 2004, where we are now, that adds up to 66 million jobs lost.' 'That's right', he says, 'Bush has cost this country 66 million jobs. Do you want to vote for a man who has thrown 66 million people out of jobs?' The audience yells 'No', 'Boo', and similar sentiments.

I turn to him and say 'You might want to keep your rhetorical pants on for a minute there Junior. According to the latest U.S. Census, the population of this country is 293,896,550. Now 66 million is 22 per cent of 293,896,550. So, according to your figures, that means that 22 per cent of the people in this country are out of work. Is that right?' 'That's right,' Che says, 'your President has thrown 22 per cent of this country into unemployment!'

'No, he hasn't.' I reply. 'According to the Bureau of Labour Statistics, unemployment during President Bush's administration reached its highest peak in July of 2003 at 6.3 per cent. Since then unemployment has been steadily dropping until now, in August, it's at 5.6. You may notice that neither of those numbers resembles 22 per cent. So...were you lying or misinformed?'

He tries to squirm out of it, but he's got nowhere to go. The numbers that he was so enthusiastic about five minutes ago have turned around and bitten his balls off. He's got no choice but to admit that his data was wrong. Since he obtained all of his information from the same source he got his job-loss 'data', the rest of his 'charges' no doubt enjoy the same basis in reality. A fact I am not shy about pointing out.

At the end, he takes refuge in the loser's desperation tactic: whining about things aren't fair. 'You think you're so much better than me. I don't see why you have to make fun of me for trying to get people to think.' he says. 'I don't know about 'better' per se', I reply, 'but I think it's fairly obvious that I'm better prepared, better informed, and better able to argue a point than you. And if you're trying to get people to think, you might want to start with yourself. Here endeth the lesson.'

Iraq the Gathering III.jpg (28 kB)

User Reviews

Submitted by GodLovesALittleLovin (user info) at 2004-10-12 10:47:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

Hippies and their godamn hackey-sack and sandals.

Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2004-10-07 05:42:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

Dude, you are the man. I am sick of leftist shit these 20 year old, I am going to save the world, bullshit authors are writing, I'm not saying that your writing is shit, but that your sophmoric view of the world is.

Submitted by ruin_dc (user info) at 2004-10-07 05:36:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

*speechless*

Submitted by blujnbbyqn (user info) at 2004-10-07 05:15:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0

Entertaining.

Here's the thing - Honest, good, old-fashioned debate requires only a few things. Chief among them is adherence to fact. Spin the facts any way you want but be able to cite your source and be ready to defend your point.

Pick a point and argue a side. That's all there is to a debate.
50 percent of the glass is full.
50 percent of the glass is empty.
Agreed. The glass is better when empty. Pro or Con?

Pro - An empty glass weighs less, therefore it is more mobile. It's value is in it's ability to hold or measure fluid for transport in the future. Fact: The world needs a stable measure for the quality and quantity of fluid produced. An empty glass is a ready glass. We need more empty glasses.

Con - A full glass is only a transportation device for the fluid, it serves as a measure for the quality and quantity of the fluid it holds. The glass itself has no intrinsic value other than the fluid it contains. Fact: There are too many empty glasses in the world. Without the fluid to fill them the glasses are useless.

Today, this is where the differing sides start argueing over where the glass had been made, and to whose specifications, etc. They pick apart the accountability for the measurements of the glass throughout it's use in time. The standards of the two sides differing as apples and oranges. The two sides go on for years challenging the consistency of the glass and it's right to contain, transport, quantify or qualify the fluids of this world, past, present or future.

Without warning the empty/full debate would be shattered with breaking news. Inside sources just released new data that measured the glass and it's propensity for fullness at previously unknown quantities. The two sides scramble to use the new numbers to their advantage. No one is sure anymore. The reliablity of scientific fact has come under question. If a man cannot depend on a pound for a pound then what can he depend on? A liter? 3 and a half liters?

The whole mess has forced the majority of both sides to a judgement call. Who can they rely on to interpret the truthes and falsehoods of humanity? To whom can they entrust their GLASSES? Empty and full?

Pink cheeks and an engaging demeanor? Good 'ol boy guffaws and a rousing chorus of "God Bless America"? Flashbacks to another war and a nation divided? Back to an ugly war fought in the name of freedom but in a land so starved they would swear allegiance to whomever held a chicken for the pot? Right and left media as it holds onto it's conscripted audience/voter pool tight? As lives are lived and lives are lost? With media churning and spinning endlessly, dwindling down to THE MEN WHO MIGHT BE and even then, EVEN THEN! into only a 'Five Words or Less' caption that a spoonfed public might swallow with a glass of Pepsi? Or Coke?

Oh, and that new data on the glasses? Suppose, just suppose, that just before voting each person was made aware that the information was absolutely factual, but only if the measurements were taken on the MOON!

Without facts, agreed upon facts, there is no debate for opinion.

I'll just say two more things.(only two, can ya believe it?)

1.- One man's poison....
2.- Let the buyer beware.

Michelle

Submitted by Wiggles (user info) at 2004-10-07 00:05:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2

No Comment

Submitted by Death_Metal_Dude (user info) at 2004-09-16 01:03:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1

Eh, your best vs their worst doesn't really mean anything.

Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2004-09-15 19:51:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0

**He should have done his research on the job losses.**

And here you finally arrive at the point of the story. The reason I was able to destroy him without pulling out my 'A' game was precisely because he had not done any research of any kind, but merely relied on a hysterically leftist pile of shit(no, not Michael Moore)to tell him what was what.

Although chances are even if he had, I'd have still beat him like he was my wife. Especially if he had done any whining about the war.

Submitted by munkeypants (user info) at 2004-09-15 16:44:39 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0

Submitted by Yes (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:11:17 (#)
Ranking: 2

yo ho ho and a bottle of rum.

remember September 19th is talk like a pirate day.
------------------------

OH MY ACHIN' GOD!! So i am not the only one who's heard of that???

Submitted by munkeypants (user info) at 2004-09-15 16:43:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1

+1 cuz you're back!!

but, what Loki said...

Submitted by loki (user info) at 2004-09-15 16:15:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0

Oh so the debate was about moral righteousness or was it about Bush? Because Kennedy's rather questionable driving history has about as much to do with Bush being a drunk driver as the fact that I have red pencil stuck behind my right ear does. It is, as always completely irrelevant and I would have called you on it.

Unless of course, you are willing to completely let go of the fact that Clinton had an affair with an intern, because god knows no Republican like oh say Henry Hyde, Newt Gingrich, or Rudolph Guiliani has ever done anything that abhorrent.

Your issue with the Hundred Years war was opinion as is the statement that Iraq was the worst diplomatic failure in history. You cannot debate opinion. Your opponent should have stopped with the fact that Iraq has been and continues to be a huge diplomatic and tactical disaster. He had plenty to work with without resort to hyperbole.

He should have done his research on the job losses. If he had, he could have eaten you alive out there. Take a gander at the increase in CEO salaries versus labor over the past couple of years. These jobs that Bush is so proud of creating are nothing but McJobs that do nothing other than create a larger and larger class of working poor. If you were debating me, I would also have brought in the newly released numbers showing that the number of Americans with health insurance has increased by 5 million since Bush took office. Oddly enough the healthcare industry has donated roughly $12 million to the Bush campaign. Strange that they don't have enough money to cover that additional stay in the hospital for a new born, but they do have enough money to dump $12 million into the Bush campaign. Now why do you suppose that is?

Submitted by Evil_Morg (user info) at 2004-09-15 16:07:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1

this is the kinda crap I crave fort nightly

Submitted by Jogging_Monkey (user info) at 2004-09-15 15:39:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

easy on the convolution amigos.... i thought i was finally done with that shizzat once i blew the acadamia chip stand.

Submitted by AwesomeJohnson (user info) at 2004-09-15 15:36:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

I approve of this message. I don't know you either, but you don't suck, so welcome back.

Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2004-09-15 15:17:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0

**First of all the fact that Kennedy or anyone has or will drive drunk does nothing to change the fact that Bush is, in fact a drunk driver**

It's true that two wrongs do not make a right, but they do keep an intelligent debater from bringing them up. Like I said, glass houses.

**I'm far more concerned with this administration's complete lack of regard for basic free speech rights than actual numbers. **

Every time I turn around I hear liberals whining about how they've lost all their rights of free speech and they're one small step away from the death camps and they can't believe they're still allowed to run around and be completely ineffective. Of course, the fact that thousands of them spent an entire week protesting with nothing worse happening then a small percentage of them being tossed in the clink for 48 hours fails to penetrate their I'm-a-victim mentality. If they had pulled that shit in China or Russia...well, we all remember the Chinese and Russian attitude towards massive demonstrations don't we?

**So your opinion was that the Hundred Years War was a worse failure of diplomacy than the Iraq war. **

I brought that up less to debate the war (which is a fait accompli at this point) than to illustrate the foolishness of using a term like 'in the entire history of mankind.' Only someone who's brain had been dried into blackened little turds from bong hits would try and use that to describe something that happened two years ago and then give his source as 'ummm...the Internet.'

As for the job loss, I think that stating that this country is losing two million jobs a month for three years is a little hysterical, but typical.

Submitted by loki (user info) at 2004-09-15 15:13:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0

Shall I refer you to the list of fallacies that you have committed in this argument?

Clearly the Kennedy issue is argumentum ad nauseam, non sequitur, and tu quoque.

Then we have a good solid case of red herring. In fact, I'd pretty much call red herring on the whole Hundred Years War diplomacy issue.

The unemployment bit is straw man and possibly dicto simpliciter but I'm not positive about that one.

So yea, I'd say that as long as you are content to take on ill prepared college kids you'll do fine though.

Submitted by DonkeyOnTheEdge (user info) at 2004-09-15 14:42:20 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

Loki is just mad because the hippie was her Dad. =) And as for Ted Kennedy, we'll drive off that bridge when we get to it.

Submitted by loki (user info) at 2004-09-15 14:02:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0

Ok, I'll play along. First of all the fact that Kennedy or anyone has or will drive drunk does nothing to change the fact that Bush is, in fact a drunk driver: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/bushdui1.html

Oh but that's just a youthful indiscretion since he was only 30 at the time and we all know that according to Henry Hyde, Republicans are allowed to make youthful indiscretions up until they are in their 40's.

As for this whole 15 million people protesting Bush, I don't know and I don't care. I'm far more concerned with this administration's complete lack of regard for basic free speech rights than actual numbers.

http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html

That is certainly something that no other US president has ever attempted.

Let's look at this 'the largest failure of diplomacy in world history" issue now shall we?

So your opinion was that the Hundred Years War was a worse failure of diplomacy than the Iraq war. Fine, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Way to hi-jack the debate by bringing up something that ended what 500 years ago. Christ you must be Irish to hold a grudge that long. There are certain similarities, an imperialistic powerhouse trying to control a hostile territory while completely ignoring the plight of their own people, yes indeed quite similar actually. Quite a death toll too, it looks like there were over 185,000 people killed in that little skirmish but then that also includes the plague so its hard to determine the actual number of battle deaths. Let's all just hope that this new one is not quite so "successful".

The question as to whether or not your opinion is valid depends on whether or not there was ever a chance of reaching a diplomatic solution to either war. Clearly more people were killed in WWII and no one is calling that a diplomatic failure because there was no other option. I suppose your opinion is that Bush did not have another option. I don't agree.

Next

As for your math, lord have mercy stay in the history department.

The stats I've heard are that the country lost 2 million jobs in the first two years of the Bush administration and that your boy Bush is on target to be the first president since Hoover to oversee an overall net loss of jobs.

Your argument on this point fails on several levels. First of all you assume that everyone who lost a job stays out of work. It's a question of compounding. In fact, the same person could get laid off a couple of times and count twice in the statistics. Then you try to jump from the net number of job losses to the unemployment rate. You of course realize that the unemployment rate does not include people who have given up and stopped looking right? Well it also doesn't take into account the number of underemployed people. Real wages have been dropping steadily since you know who got into office.

Want an example? Ok, say that you were working in a plant making oh say $50k a year. The plant closed, you now count as one of the jobs that were lost. You then get a job making $7 an hour at a 7-11. You are not part of the unemployment rate, but your old job still counts as a loss and you are still suffering from an adverse economic environment since you no longer command anywhere near the same buying power. That is a much bigger issue that your little trick of trying to compare apples to oranges and make lemon-aid.

As for the democrat party preying off of uniformed college students, funny I read an article in Time a couple of weeks ago outlining the republicans strategy for using students are fronts for supposed grass roots organizations that are actually run behind the scenes by the usual power brokers.

Throwing rocks from a glass house indeed.

Submitted by engine13 (user info) at 2004-09-15 13:16:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

ahahaha. Unfortunately, I don't agree with your politics so it's hard to give you this +2. But, you can't beat handing an uninformed person their ass and then writing a great story about it. People really should do a bit more research beofre they start spouting off at the mouth.

Submitted by jimbo (user info) at 2004-09-15 13:07:01 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

Well done, you fucking fascist.

Submitted by mr.awesome (user info) at 2004-09-15 13:01:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

Take that, hippies!

Submitted by lokisince89 (user info) at 2004-09-15 13:01:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

Liberals hate it when you cheat and use facts.

Submitted by MickGinny (user info) at 2004-09-15 13:00:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

good to hear from you again qmain...i see you still like numbers..... a little too much.

Submitted by tinactin (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:53:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

I once met Ron Kovic on the pier in Santa Monica. He was just as unwashed as you described. Not to mention, insane.

Submitted by polyamorousaj (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:44:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

I knew there was something I didn't like about you, Lee. ;)

Did we talk politics in NH? I thought we did, but then again I could be getting crossed wires by all the drunkenness and confusion.

I used to be a Republican. Then I realized that I don't have any money.

Submitted by DonkeyOnTheEdge (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:37:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

Greetings from another Republican. We shall now be friends.

Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:35:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0

Monarch- Thanks. I cannot in good conscience take credit for the picture though. I nicked it off of somethingawful.com back when the war first started.

Random Joe- Yeah, the numbers are a wee bit skewed for two reasons.

A) The larger number gives Michael Moore there the benefit of the doubt and assumes ideological blinders rather than a lack of third-grade math skills.

B) The library I did the research at is not blessed with an abundance of computer terminals and they were all in use at the time. While it is relatively easy to find the total number of employable people in the U.S. on the Internet, it is somewhat harder to find it in reference books in the time I had, so I took the census count.

Submitted by Chinaski (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:34:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2

I'm a "hippie" (a real one, not a "dirty" one), so -2 for you, labia-for-brains.

Submitted by Shlongy (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:28:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2

You know what?

I did some research too, and found that 99.999874% of all peeps who post Uber stats when trying to make a point were found to be gay, friendless, virgin cyber-dorks with no personality and low paying jobs.

Way to be, Monarch, you fucking shitforbrains.

Unless you happen to fall into that .000126% which I highly doubt.

Keep up the good investigative work there, Dick Tracy.

Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:26:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

I didn't miss you

Submitted by Monarch (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:22:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

Submitted by Shlongy (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:08:06 (#)
Ranking: 0

Never heard of you.

--------------------

Is that so Schlongy? Let's look:

Everything you ever wanted to know about Quartermain
User id: 670
Registered on or around: 2003-03-08 22:20:08
# Messages posted: 52
# Reviews written: 4416
# Times these posts have been reviewed : 1197
# Hits: 28146
Average rating of all messages: 0.94

Everything you ever wanted to know about Shlongy
User id: 10879
Registered on or around: 2004-08-02 17:37:55
# Messages posted: 14
# Reviews written: 1549
# Times these posts have been reviewed : 528
# Hits: 5906
Average rating of all messages: -0.50

Me thinks I'm not surprised that you don't know him. Why would you? Welcome back to hell Quartermain! ;)

And plus fucking TWO for that Photoshop job. That's awesome!

Submitted by strider (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:18:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

good post. good argument. nice pic.

Submitted by Yes (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:11:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

yo ho ho and a bottle of rum.

remember September 19th is talk like a pirate day.

Submitted by xenon (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:10:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

Rock the fuck on!

I like you, brotha!

Submitted by Shlongy (user info) at 2004-09-15 12:08:06 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0

Never heard of you.

Submitted by polyamorousaj (user info) at 2004-09-15 11:59:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

If hippies want to be political activists, they should put down the pipe before doing so.

All these filthy long-hairs at my school remind me of that Simpsons episode where all the stoners forget to vote.

This was fucking funny.

Welcome back.

Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2004-09-15 11:57:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0

It's been a long three months, and I have sojourned among the infidel, but now I am back to dispense wisdom and funny pictures and smart-ass comments in equal measure.

Submitted by Random Joe at 2004-09-15 11:57:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0

I hate Bush (and dirty hippies) with great passion as well, but I do have a question about your reasoning. What about those unemployed who actively search for new jobs and become employed again? This does lower the 22% you pointed out.

Submitted by QueenAshlee (user info) at 2004-09-15 11:52:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

Painful because of the subject matter, not the person writing.

Submitted by QueenAshlee (user info) at 2004-09-15 11:51:39 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

This is the most painful +2 I have ever given. But it was +2 worthy so a +2 ye shall have.

Submitted by Awko (user info) at 2004-09-15 11:37:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1

I like.
And that picture made me think of the hippies in Kingdom of Loathing. I like that game too.

-----------------------------------------------------
Filthy Hippy.

This is a filthy hippy. It's dirtier than a dirty hippy, but no less redundant. This is what happens when you rub pine needles under your arms instead of using deodorant.
-----------------------------------------------------

Submitted by Kristen (user info) at 2004-09-15 11:32:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2

Ohhhhh, my fellow Conservative is back. Hooray!