Iraq: Don't Make Up Your Mind Just Yet (722 hits)
Category: Politics -> IraqRating: -0.77 on 25 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by Chapmin (View user info) at 2004-10-30 01:13:37 EDT
I'm so sick of people jumping on the I hate America bandwagon because of the war in Iraq. Please read the rest of the post before you make up your mind because the point I'm trying to make isn't "They're just pakis!" or something retarded like that.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Recently there was a post about how there was 100,000 causualties in Iraq. I pointed out how Saddam had killed 1,200,000 Iraqis. To which was replied:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
McGirk, you are right. Saddam did kill more people than this war has.
BUT SADDAM WAS IN POWER FOR 30 YEARS AND BECAUSE THE US PUT HIM THERE!
The US has been in Iraq for only 1.5 years and we've already done 1/12th of the damage.
This war was a huge mistake.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
me: Yes, but the war won't last 24 years
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Yes, but if it lasts 12, then we'll have killed just as many. And, you have to understand that these people could have simply rebeled and overthrown Saddam. They'll have a lot tougher time trying to overthrow the US's military. They're now in a situation where they are hopelessly under our control and all that we're doing is killing them at an excruciating rate.
You estimate that 70-125 people died every day under Saddam.
But under US occupation, between 175-200 Iraqi civilians are dying every day.
AND THAT'S ONLY CIVILIANS (mostly women and children)! That's not even counting combatant deaths.
We're killing more at a quicker rate then Saddam did.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
me: You're just pulling this out of your ass, aren't you? IF it lasts another twelve years with the same amount of causualties as there has been. That's a pretty big if, wouldn't you think? They could have simply rebelled? And you're basing this on... what, exactly? Do you think America is going to stay in Iraq for another 12 years? Hopelessly under our control? They're having elections. A democratic system is being put into place, they will be able to choose in time enough. But like I said, we can't tell whether this war will be for better or for worse, YET.
There are no idiots to two sides of an argument, the only idiots are the ones who make up their minds before the facts are in. So don't let your mind be made up just yet. Wait, let's say, 30 years, and we'll both be able to agree.
Don't be stubborn.
- and mostly women and children? What are you basing this on? Give me a ligitimate source, please.
I don't know whether there was needless loss yet, none of us do.
And I'm not saying the losses aren't terrible. They are. I don't want to see anyone die.
But the argument I'm trying to make is if things get better for the Iraqis, and they don't end up with someone like Saddam that will kill Iraqis anyways, then you'd have to say, this war was the lesser of two evils. If less life is lost years after the war, than there would have been with the same pre-war situation, then you couldn't deny that the war was a good thing. IF. If more lives are lost during the war and afterwards, and democracy hasn't taken hold, then you couldn't deny that the war was a bad thing.
But we don't know that yet. You don't know that yet, I don't know that yet, nobody knows that yet.
So don't you fucking tell me the war was a huge mistake. Don't you tell me the war was the right thing to do.
Fuck you.
And anyone whos ignorant enough draw conclusions about the wars impact this early on in the game I promise you a solid, -2.
User Reviews
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2004-12-06 06:47:12 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Phallic_Cymbals (user info) at 2004-10-30 05:57:05 (#)
Ranking: 0
Hands up Iraqi civilians that have served in the US military and post on Uber?
Right... EVERYBODY shut the fuck up. None of us knows shit.
Submitted by CoachMagirk27 (user info) at 2004-10-30 12:21:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by FuckTheArmy (user info) at 2004-10-30 07:08:59 (#)
Ranking: -1
There are some interesting points and even (logic forbid) good arguments by my right-wing adversaries here. Maybe the actual occupation by troops wouldn't be too bad >IF< the US wasn't basically ripping off Iraq's future by selling themselves cheap shares in preety much *all* the public services: particularly the OIL industry. What about the reports of democratic demonstrations being shot at? What about the insurgency - it's a little difficult for the US military to be having so much trouble, if the resistance isn't big enough to be serious - and I highly doubt there are that many foreign fighters to make up the bulk of the movement.
Fuck your army; it enforces an agenda that isn't agreed on by the people; it isn't even agreed on by a valid democratic representative of the people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good point
and to TheRef, very good points indeed.
Why does everyone here seem to think I'm republican? Is waiting to decide republican or something?
For the last time:
I'm not saying the war is good or the war is bad. I'm saying the war could turn out for the better OR for the worse, but right now it's ignorant to come to conclusions.
Submitted by Fartman (user info) at 2004-10-30 09:57:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by TheRef (user info) at 2004-10-30 06:25:41 (#)
Ranking: 0
I think you are all morons for stating "facts" you get off the evening news.
I will let you all in on a secret. THE PRESS DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT WHATS GOING ON.
----------------------------
I'm with TheRef on this one. A close friend is MSgt, 1st MarDiv. He did two tours, and we talk a lot. We are NOT getting the whole story from the press, because they don't know it either.
Submitted by great_angst (user info) at 2004-10-30 09:27:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: -1
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:33:50 (#)
Ranking: 2
These liberals believe anything that supports the enemy and their view. I wonder how many were cheering when they saw the tape of their best buddy UBL alive still.
--------------
This wins for the most irrational reply of the day. Oh no! People don't agree with the invasion of Iraq! They don't support our president! They hate freedom! They are communists! They support the terrorists! They speak french!
Please don't call your self a Libertarian ... or a supporter of Libertarians. You're 12 feet to the right of Karl Rove.
Submitted by FuckTheArmy (user info) at 2004-10-30 07:08:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: -1
There are some interesting points and even (logic forbid) good arguments by my right-wing adversaries here. Maybe the actual occupation by troops wouldn't be too bad >IF< the US wasn't basically ripping off Iraq's future by selling themselves cheap shares in preety much *all* the public services: particularly the OIL industry. What about the reports of democratic demonstrations being shot at? What about the insurgency - it's a little difficult for the US military to be having so much trouble, if the resistance isn't big enough to be serious - and I highly doubt there are that many foreign fighters to make up the bulk of the movement.
Fuck your army; it enforces an agenda that isn't agreed on by the people; it isn't even agreed on by a valid democratic representative of the people.
Submitted by TheRef (user info) at 2004-10-30 06:25:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I think you are all morons for stating "facts" you get off the evening news.
I will let you all in on a secret. THE PRESS DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT WHATS GOING ON.
They occaissionally roll into battle with a army or marine unit. They have no real clue what happens on the countless hundreds of other missions they don't go on. Its funny though that when they do go on missions, and they do film whats going on, the video shows we don't kill many civilians at all. in fact, the video shows us killing lots of armed men. Now just because they are fighting in civilian clothes does not make them civilian.
on the battles they don't go in on, they ask the local hospitals what the body counts are. Now first, the local hospitals count everyone not wearing a uniform a civilian. Second, they learned a lesson from their palestinian counterparts about inflating numbers because they know no one can really verify weither or not they are telling the truth. Finally, the press remembers the vietnam lesson, where you can make a story bigger by overstating civilian deaths, namely women and children.
now i have talked with a couple local nationals on base out here. they say it sucks, but they are still glad that the americans came in. they also admit that most of the people fighting the "occupation" aren't even iraqis.
i know most of you people sitting on your asses watching dan rather on the cbs evening news didn't want to hear this, but it is the truth. Hopefully before you argue any point you make sure you aren't using media statistics that you know are corrupt.
-12,ooo uberusers don't know shit
Submitted by Phallic_Cymbals (user info) at 2004-10-30 05:57:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Hands up Iraqi civilians that have served in the US military and post on Uber?
Right... EVERYBODY shut the fuck up. None of us knows shit.
Submitted by CabaretGirl (user info) at 2004-10-30 05:52:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Whats goin on in IRaq?
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2004-10-30 05:49:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
I think the war in Iraq was not a mistake, and it will make life better for Iraqis.
However, I blame America for supporting Saddam in the pre-Kuwait invasion years. US is the reason so much shit started to begin with. You guy shouldn't have supported him decades back. And that goes with nearly half the dictators on earth.
And what will happen with the oil I wonder?
Submitted by Jesus_Loves_TwEE (user info) at 2004-10-30 05:34:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Poo, forgot to sign in...have another -2 boob. The war in Iraq is not a mistake, and neither are the deaths, they're just the price to pay for global hegemony.
Submitted by Random Joe at 2004-10-30 05:29:42 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
The war in Iraq is not a mistake, and neither are the deaths, they're just the price to pay for global hegemony.
Submitted by Nobb (user info) at 2004-10-30 05:25:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:33:50 (#)
Ranking: 2
These Republicans believe anything that supports the enemy and their view. I wonder how many were cheering when they saw the tape of their best buddy UBL alive still. Still works doesn't it?
Submitted by CoachMagirk27 (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:59:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by Sepsis (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:58:00 (#)
Ranking: -2
didn't even read it, I just hate your name. magirk. i hate it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a bad sign...
Submitted by Sepsis (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:58:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
didn't even read it, I just hate your name. magirk. i hate it.
Submitted by CoachMagirk27 (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:49:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
understand*
Submitted by CoachMagirk27 (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:47:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by scoobidydoo2003 (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:32:49 (#)
Ranking: -2
Wait! The civilians are dying at a rate of 100 more per day under the US occupation and you're still defending it?
And how the fuck do you know when we'll be out of there? And how do you know these elections are even going to happen in January?
There's a LONG way to go in Iraq and lots more people are going to die.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There you are making assumptions! You are basing your opinion on WHAT IF. NOT SOLID FACT. WAIT UNTIL IT'S SOLID FACT BEFORE YOU MAKE UP YOUR MIND COMPLETELY.
I DON'T KNOW AND YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER AND THAT'S THE POINT!
You can't make up your mind! That's all I'm trying to say. I'm not pro-war or anti-war as of now, I'm not saying the civilain deaths are right! Jesus.
The rate doesn't matter to the big picture. I hate how I have to resort to "numbers" to describe this to you.
If 500,000 people die throughout the war in Iraq, and after peace is restored no more significant amounts of people die over the next let's say, 30 years, then it would be the lesser of two evils if Saddam had stayed in power and killed the same amount of people as he had been proceeding to do.
But I'm not saying that will happen I DON'T KNOW, and YOU DON'T KNOW, so DON'T MAKE UP YOUR MIND!
I'm sorry, this really gets me going. But I hope you unerstand where I'm coming from.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:33:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
These liberals believe anything that supports the enemy and their view. I wonder how many were cheering when they saw the tape of their best buddy UBL alive still.
Submitted by scoobidydoo2003 (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:32:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Wait! The civilians are dying at a rate of 100 more per day under the US occupation and you're still defending it?
And how the fuck do you know when we'll be out of there? And how do you know these elections are even going to happen in January?
There's a LONG way to go in Iraq and lots more people are going to die.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:32:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Ingore these liberal dickheads that plague ubersite. +2 to help balance this shit.
Submitted by CoachMagirk27 (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:30:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by scoobidydoo2003 (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:16:06 (#)
Ranking: -2
You're soooooooo stupid...
First of all, read the CNN article that was given:
"The experts from the United States and Iraq said most of those who died were women and children and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most of the violent deaths."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forgive me scoob, I am eating my hat.
Submitted by CoachMagirk27 (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:30:12 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by johnson (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:19:52 (#)
Ranking: -2
"So don't you fucking tell me the war was a huge mistake. Don't you tell me the war was the right thing to do."
I guess there's just no telling you anything, is there?
-2 for being such a jerk.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by Chronicles_of_College_Guy (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:18:05 (#)
Ranking: -2
Yes, don't make your mind up just yet. Now that 100,000 civilians have been killed. Let's all make up our minds when 200,000 have died.
AND ANOTHER THING! Don't fucking post responses as seperate articles.
THAT'S WHAT THE RESPONSE FORUMS ARE FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You guys missed the point. There'll be telling me somehting in 30 years. The whole idea was that we can't make up our minds YET. There WILL be "telling me something" but not YET.
Chronicles, did you read about Saddam? Had America not stepped in, he would have kept on killing. What we don't know yet is whether or not there will be greater losses in the long run with the war, or with keeping Saddam in power.
You just, don't, get it.
GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES WE HAVE TO GIVE THIS TIME BEFORE WE CAN COME TO A CONCLUSION.
Civilians were dying under Saddam too! The difference is now it's brought to our attention.
Submitted by Jocko_Johnson (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:27:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
you basically just totally wasted my time you cunt.
Submitted by johnson (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:19:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
"So don't you fucking tell me the war was a huge mistake. Don't you tell me the war was the right thing to do."
I guess there's just no telling you anything, is there?
-2 for being such a jerk.
Submitted by Chronicles_of_College_Guy (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:18:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Yes, don't make your mind up just yet. Now that 100,000 civilians have been killed. Let's all make up our minds when 200,000 have died.
AND ANOTHER THING! Don't fucking post responses as seperate articles.
THAT'S WHAT THE RESPONSE FORUMS ARE FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Submitted by scoobidydoo2003 (user info) at 2004-10-30 01:16:06 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
You're soooooooo stupid...
First of all, read the CNN article that was given:
"The experts from the United States and Iraq said most of those who died were women and children and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most of the violent deaths."