Religion (5336 hits)
Category: Science & EnvironmentalRating: -0.32 on 210 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by Roman <webmaster.at.uberpages.com> (View user info) at 2003-01-16 17:12:07 EST
Ok, here I go on a rant.
Before I start, here is a bit of background: I started going to a private school in grade 5 (I am 18 now). It was a pretty small school, 80 kids in all and it was right behind a big church. The entire school was interlaced by Christian preachings; the Father coming over every once inawhile and reading our class (grade: 5,6 and 7 combined, lol) stories from the Bible and thn going over the meanings, etc. Added to this, every thursday we would actually go to church with the whole school for about an hour mass, that being added to Lent and other mindless holidays.
Anyways, after elementary school, I went to another private school (even thought most of my friends were in Public schools), Saint Andrews. Again, a subject devoted to religion. The subject Religion was attended almost every second day for about an hour and a half, but this time less emphasized on God, but more on treating your fellow man with respect, but still with mindless God-talk. Of course, every day there was a daily prayer in TA/Home Room, plus on special occasions we went up the hill to the church for more brain-washing sessions. This schooling went on untill grade 11, when I decided to get the fuck out, say good-bye to my half-normal private school buddies and go back to Public school with my normal friends. I can't believe that someone would go as far as teach Religion and Science in the same building... Sick.
Let me tell you something now... I don't believe in anything, but myself.
I can't understand why people still believe in "God". I have tried to come to terms with other people's blissful ignorance, but didn't go any further, so I just left it at that... But, I started thinking about it; wondering why people would believe in something that they have: Not seen, not felt, not heard, not smelled or had not obtained a shred of evidence to confirm the exsistance of a God. Absurd.
In any case, I believe that way back in the cave man days, when people started living together more-or-less, people started the notion of God (I am going to stop capitalizing god): Whenever something odd or out of the ordinary happened which couldn't be explained, it was pinned to god. That is a fact. Fire gods related to fire, water gods related to flooding, etc... So, thats how god(or religion or supernatiural powers, its just easier to call it god) lived on, until people started using god for their own use in the forms of cursaides and the justification of the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people... "In God we Trust."
So... We have made it this far: We have science to tell us what fire, etc is, what many of the things we didn't know about is and soforth. How did religion get carried this far into modern society? People gasp at lies and flasehoods, take people to court about them and always want to know the truth, but then, many of those same people stand behind the thought about some spook in the sky or some greater power which we haven't even recorded in any way, shape or form.
On occasion I watch TCL(The Learning Channel) or the Discovery Channel and I have seen whole episodes devoted to religion and science trying to prove that there is a god, or jesus christe or anything related to the bible. For instance, there were many scientists devoted to researching "the shroud" (something apperently worn by someone we have no formal records of, called Jesus Christe). This garmant was constantly anazlized, this, that and whatever else was done to it to bring some kind of tanjability(sp? sorry) to it all. This bothers me greatly, I don't understand why science is trying to prove jesus/god, shouldn't the toters of this prophecy prove it to us? Simply stunning.
I'm not sure what else to say... I see people constantly bowing down to something else, praise god, praise Allah, Buddah, my Anus, etc. Why don't we just all put away the religion and start worshipping ourselves. Wouldn't you start questioning yourself and thousands of people just like you if you all rallied around a giant cubic/rock and kissed it and praised it (Mecca). We all need to push religion under the rug and finally forget about it. All it does its create another wrench throwin into the gearworkings of society to cause more trouble. People constantly go to war and kill for something that simply is not true, and some just devote a silent life to praising something that just simply isn't true. Foolish. Religion is just another factor which devides humans more than they should be.
Do you belive in Luke Skywalker/The hobbit? Theres probably just as much, or more information (books, etc) written about them as there is your diety.
Stop the madness and pull your head out of your communal asses.
User Reviews
Submitted by spaghetti_upset (user info) at 2003-06-06 18:12:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Oh boy another 'enlightened' 15 year old that has it all figured out. My favorite part is how he doesn't want to be told to believe, and then he tells us all what to believe. Classic. And while we're at it, can we please stop putting science and God in opposite corners, it isn't how it is, that's just how people with agendas want you to see it. I agree with you on a few points. 1) you cannot prove God's existence. Thats because we are to rely on faith. God wants us to have a choice, and it's not much of a choice if you see God hanging out on the corner. 2) Religion is a waste of time for the most part. There is, though, a massive difference between Christianity and religion. 3) Alot of people use God for their own gain, like in the Crusades, the Spanish Conquistadors, and Jerry Falwell. THey say their going in God's name, but they have an alterior motive.
Also consider a world where we all 'worshipped ourselves' Think we're screwed up now? Now multiply that by at least 5000 and your still not close.
By the by, Stephs got it right on. There's alot of stuff that you can't see but I'm sure you believe. If anyone is pathetic, its the one trying desparately to find a way to get around God. I'll give you a heads up. You won't find one.
later
andy
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-04-30 01:24:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Wow... You can't even comapre the two, but thanks for trying. To compare those two is just absurd, they arn't even in the same ballpark, not even the same league.
Pathetic.
Submitted by Steph <absent0ffaith.at.yahoo.com> at 2003-04-21 22:23:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Have you ever loved? Family, friends, or a significant other? Can you prove it? Love is not something you can feel. It's the same deal with God. There is no proof. You're right, it's not something you can feel. But you are being a hypocrit when you bring others down for believing in God when you, yourself have a concept just the same.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-21 10:41:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
There was a 19th century German theologian/philosopher whose name I've never been able to spell correctly--Schleiermacher or something like that.
Anyway, he said that "religion is a means to ultimate transformation." Add that to Karl Marx's statement that "religion is made for man, not man for religion."
For me, God exists. Heck, God IS existence. We are little aspects of Existence going through the world trying to become more fully what we are. We do this best by tapping into the Source of Being (i.e., God) and using the energy that this Source provides to express ourselves more fully in the world. We do this best by loving each other totally and without reservation (or at least, doing our best toward this goal). Every religious system human beings have devised has been an attempt--through symbols and metaphors--to give a name to the Unnameable, to comprehend the Incomprehensible, to know the Unknowable, to serve as means for the human to commune with the Divine. Every religion has as its core the message of love.
Each religion, so long as its believers honestly apply themselves to the message of love rather than obsess over questions of truth or who is right, can lead people to God and to living more fully and abundantly. Some people can do this without a formal religion, or without believing in "God" per se at all.
The goal is simply to be ourselves and to be as much of who we are as we can. That is the feeling of God, the "God-experience": being totally yourself as you were meant to be.
Submitted by GenocideTickles (user info) at 2003-04-20 03:03:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
I gave this a -2 because I had scroll down to read the whole thing when it was in maximum window size on a 17 inch monitor. Can we, as a community, work on keeping these messages under 250 words?
If I wanted pages and pages of boring nonsense, I'd read up the Gideon's Bible that's lending support to the uneven leg of my computer desk.
Submitted by Jumby <Jumby.at.minorthreat.com> at 2003-04-16 22:15:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Actualy reading this, it makes perfect sense. See, the reason why everyone else is talking about you making no sense is because their going at it with a closed mind. Open up. Look at the facts. Its obviously true
Submitted by dasteve (user info) at 2003-04-12 05:01:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Partholon: When I saw your introductory photo, I didn't know what to think. However, as I read your responses to posts on this site, I am beginning to believe that you are an extremely intelligent person and I encourage you to start posting. We could all use some intelligent posts..
As for this topic I think many people are missing the point about God. There are many different religions and most practioners of them think that theirs is the one true religion and that all the others are wrong. I realized this and I tried to experience as many religions as I could so I could decide for myself which one was the "right" one. I never found it. And here's why:
They are all "right". The common factor among all faiths is the belief in God (or a higher power). Fortunately for us that is all that is required to connect with this power. So everyone who believes in this power (regardless of denomination or even religion) is connected to God.
As for the scientific angle, I ask you this: Have you ever felt someone watching you? If so, please explain the scientific rational behind this phenomena. There are many other things that cannot be explained, but this is one that almost all of us has experienced.
Shit, this is way too long.
Submitted by skitty at 2003-04-12 04:52:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
poo lotto.
all there is to it.
Submitted by Queen (user info) at 2003-04-12 04:52:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I only had one more thing to add to my previous post. Klye had made a comment earlier that if he believed anything in the bible that it " was the part about satan"...how could you believe in satan if you don't believe in God..?
The feeling of wondering and inner doubt is awful, and the question and bitterness inside of wondering of what exactly life is all about, and why we are here. The knowledge is out there, find it within yourself to expand and learn, you will be a much happier person. Again, If the lesson is there to be learned, and the mind is closed after only learning part of what was meant to be taught, in weakens our ability to argue the issue.
God bless all the Christians who feel compelled to argue what we feel, and to the ones that doubt or don't believe, we will be praying for you. Because, you'll need it.
Submitted by Queen <Queenxtc_.at.webtv.net> at 2003-04-12 04:10:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I would have to say at one time i have wondered some of these same issues. But now as a newly practicing christian and trying to learn more and answer some questions for myself, i have an opinion or two. First, there hasn't been any proof either, of the fact that God doesn't exsist. People can scream science science all they want, but nothing can prove that a devine force did not create this world. But, it has been proven through science that the "Big boom" theory some people belive, that the world just 'became', is impossible. It has proven that there is no way what so ever this could be possible. One of the small facts being about the human eyeball alone. It is the most construct and complicated things ever made and even science can't duplicate the human eye, hence the reason blind people still can't see. The 'big bang' theory concludes to say that the original organism that formed, was from a single grain of sand. Science has also concluded that there is no way possible that sand or any other organism could make an eye. But going beyond this point, is the point of just faith alone. God put us here with all minds of our own and the power to make our own decisions. Either to belive in him and learn on both levels to fully understand, or to not belive and lose faith. It is faith that is expected to return us to an afterlife in heaven. There is a book called the bible, that is well worth the read. You will even learn in this book that the sabbath day isnt sunday at all. In the bible it states that Jesus arose AFTER the sabbath day and we celebrate Easter on Sunday. The sabbath day is Saturday. Religion has modifed itself for more convienence than anything...people figure, why give up Saturday to go to church when sunday, nothing is going on..? The bible can be read 900 times and it will be interpreted 900 different ways. Hence the reason there are so many religions. Another choice God gave to us, we are not stricken to or confined to one religion. It is a sin to practice something that you have doubt unto. A sin to belive in something or do something when you have the knowledge that the action or belive is false or wrong. We are suppose to go with how we feel on the inside. And if we yearn for the knowledge, but do not seek to learn all areas of the issue, we fall short of the full lesson to be taught, thus weakining our argument. I'ts all in your faith and what your heart feels. Thats why the previous posts cannot express how the "God feeling" is. It's a feeling of comfort and unconditional love. A feeling that when all else in the world feels uncontrollable, there is always someone there to listen and lead your heart in the right path. God will always love, even when he is denied.
Always remember though, there is no such thing as an atheist on their death bed.
Try to learn and understand fully before you close your life on a "scientific intuition". Science has been more than wrong on many occasions, and lets just say there is a God, would a passed judgement that there never was one, and denial to the end, really be worth the price that will be paid by the sinners? The 6th seal is upon us as we speak. And there is only 7 untill Jesus returns.
B--basic
I--instructions
B--before
L--leaving
E--earth
I view myself as having an open mind and heart. I stand true in my opinions, and offer them with just reason, but with an open mind to accecpt all views. I pass no judgement on any other person for their beleifs in this matter and am learning more on this subject at this time in my life. I must say, that i feel much happier and secure in my life, now that the "wondering" is over for me.
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-04-11 16:18:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
"Can't you feel God sometimes?"
"Sometimes, but the God-experience is not something that can be rationally understood."
Huh, am I missing out on something. You two seem to talk about some kind of god feeling... Can you go in depth. This "feeling" has eluded me.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-11 11:44:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Sometimes, but the God-experience is not something that can be rationally understood, proven, or debated. It has to felt, experienced, and lived.
I believe that we, as humans, are beings of duality. We are matter and spirit, body and soul, reason and emotion, intelligence and faith, knowledge and love. We can't "know" God because God is the All, the Totality of Existence, Being Itself. But, we can live in God and love in God and be in God.
Whether we believe in God or not is irrelevant, so long as we love. Because God, after all, is love, and actions mean a whole lot more than thoughts and ideas.
Submitted by Titinita (user info) at 2003-04-09 15:49:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Can't you feel God sometimes?
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-09 15:33:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
You admit that it can't be proved whether God exists or not. Whatever the objective answer is, it can't be known. So, people have to decide the answer for themselves, and live their lives accordingly.
My argument here is basically the reverse of Pascal's Wager. Let's say that God doesn't actually exist. Billions of people, however, do believe a God or Gods or a Cosmic Muffin or what-have-exists, and this gives great comfort and solace to them, and gives their lives meaning. If there were no God, there would be no meaning or order in the universe and life would be meaningless. This is not a concept with the average human can handle heathily.
Believing in God makes people happy, and ceasing to believe in God does not really make anyone's life better. In fact, if it could be proven that God did not exist, many people would be devastated.
Basically, religious belief only matters in what it does for the believer. If believing in God has meaning for someone, good for them; if someone doesn't believe in God and that has meaning for them, good for them. I don't see any reason why someone should try to convince someone else to alter or abandon their religious beliefs, however.
Submitted by lodnem (user info) at 2003-03-21 17:25:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
<< Let me tell you something now... I don't believe in anything, but myself. >>
i believe in you to, and after all my prayers and sacrafices you still haven't gotten me a bigger house than my neighbor, or a better looking wife than john stamos.
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-03-21 17:13:41 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
People want answers because the majority of the world flocks after fictious beliefes... Anything else would be blissful ignorance.
Submitted by tartpumper (user info) at 2003-03-21 06:21:17 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Why does everyone need answers? There is no proof of any god, jesus christ, buddah, Allah etc so I cant see how u can believe.
Submitted by Gaia2 (user info) at 2003-03-20 21:39:46 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
How can god exists when hypocrisy rules all and being an ignorant fool is the trend of the day?
Submitted by hairowen (user info) at 2003-03-19 17:48:50 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I'd write something long but 2 of the fingers in my left hand are broken and 1 hand is hard to type with... my fingers hurt...
TheSexyCuban
Submitted by Quirkster (user info) at 2003-03-19 15:30:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Jack Handy on religion:
-"If God dwells inside us, like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas,
because that's what He's getting!"
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-03-18 15:59:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
We shouldn't have to try to prove it.
It retards could build houses, you would be a stone mason.
Submitted by Kasarius (user info) at 2003-03-16 01:56:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The human race will be long extinct before we ever get the chance to prove the existence (or lack thereof) of a God.
Submitted by MindZi at 2003-03-13 03:37:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I am God.
That is all.
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-03-12 16:04:24 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
I'm not a bad guy. I work hard and I love my kids. So why should I spend
half my Sunday hearing about how I'm going to Hell?
-- Homer Simpson
Homer the Heretic
Submitted by osirisdionysus (user info) at 2003-03-11 13:47:17 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
i get disturbed when people bring salvation into this whole thing. im not anti-god or pro-god, im still searching for answers. but where i do find issue is that when people claim they're striving for salvation and eternal bliss in heaven or whatever they believe, i cringe. in my opinion, and only in my opinion (no objective truth stated) the meaning of life is to live life. when you solely strive for what is right and what is good because you want your ticket to heaven, you trivialize the existence you have in the here and now. why not do the good and or right thing because it pleases you or pleases someone else? especially if it pleases someone else, because i dont understand why everything you do must have some reward attached to it. but i guess im a hypocrite in that sense as well because i do most things in my life solely for my own pleasure or for those whom i care for, which are actions rewarding myself. i just guess i hope for an ideal world of ideal people who live their lives for the moment. but then again, i love when people have violently different opinions because it makes for good mental masturbation (aka debate). im just a confused kid. but the poems are classic, this i know for sure.
Submitted by lowsodiummonkey (user info) at 2003-03-11 08:43:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
You forgot one thing:
God kicked us out of the Garden and told us that we are on our own.
Whether you believe in God or not that part of the story is relevant. And let me emphasis - "story"
Submitted by AIRKP (user info) at 2003-03-10 23:57:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
God created us in his image. When he created Adam, he was esentially a carbon copy of God himself, then Adam and Eve sinned and people fell farther and farther away from God. Essentially, everything that we have/do comes from God, and everything we have/do that is sinfull comes from the original sin of adam and eve. As for the comment why is revenge, I believe Roman said, wrong when at times God was vengeance. God is everything (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, etc.), God at times has even been hate, e.g. Jacob have I loved, Esau hath I hated. But at the same time that God is everything God is nothing, God is love but at the same time hate, he is joy but at the same time sadness. To be honest, I'm a 16 year old kid who hasn't experienced the "Real World" for myself yet, I won't sit here and tell all of you that Christianity is the right way to go for everyone. I won't even say that all the things that the Christian Church as a whole teaches are correct. All I'm doing is defending a minority people, who on Ubersite, have virtually no one to defend them.
Submitted by blujnbbyqn (user info) at 2003-03-10 23:14:43 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Is it just me or does anyone else feel a poem coming on?
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-03-10 19:50:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Yup, thats pretty much it. Not to mention all the crap that comes along with it. Religious people, christians for the most part, say why are we here, or, who created us... As if trying to cornering non-belivers into saying, "oh gee, it must be a higher power, like god."
If this is the case... Why would a perfect god create humans, which are obviously imperfect. Oh, arn't we suppost to be created in god's image? Bah.
Then why is revenge so bad when god at times was a "vengful god?" Please.
Submitted by M@T at 2003-03-10 03:04:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I have considered this myself. I simply cannot believe in a religion that someone else has to preach to me. The Bible does not impress me enough for me to even consider placing any faith on it. As far as I can tell, the only reason these outdated religions continue, is because they are taught to children. Taking a kid to church every week will make quite an impression on them. Get 'em before they're smart enough to question it.
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-03-07 19:21:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
If salvation is such a big thing in the bible, and made out to be in our lives, why do we have no rock solid rules from a source we can all agree upon.
Face it, religion is just a tool and a lable. Just believe in yourself, you don't need a cosmic mystery man as the middle man.
Submitted by ScJ (user info) at 2003-03-04 22:29:49 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
AIRKP is right once again. Aetheism of any kind is just ridiculous, because either way, aetheists have no hope of salvation, Christians on the other hand, are saved if there is a heaven, and if there isnt, well too bad.
Now of course this is not at all a reason to believe. My reason to believe is because I love God, simple as that. I suggest you wise up a little, and I hope you find at least some sort of religious practice.
Submitted by lowsodiummonkey (user info) at 2003-03-04 17:21:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Oh. It's basing the comment time on the users clock. It shouldn't do that for a message board. Should it?
Submitted by lowsodiummonkey (user info) at 2003-03-04 17:19:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
That's weird. Must be a bug since the crash. That last comment supposed to come after ScJs.
Submitted by lowsodiummonkey (user info) at 2003-03-04 17:17:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Salvation. Hahahahahahahahahaha..........
It's the Inquisition,
What do ya know.
It's the Inquisition....
Submitted by KyleMitchell (user info) at 2003-02-26 22:06:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Fuck what the bible has to say
Submitted by AIRKP (user info) at 2003-02-26 19:28:59 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Well, as I said in a previous post, I am a firm believer and when it comes down to it if I'm wrong no biggie, maybe instead of coming back as a cow or whatever I come back as a dung beetle. If the non-believers are wrong they will have "hell to pay". I'm not saying they deserve hell more than anyone else, the Bible says that we all deserve hell, but that's just how its gonna work out.
Submitted by KyleMitchell (user info) at 2003-02-26 10:30:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You ask that question as if god actually does exist.. Religion is a crutch that people rely on to get through life. It is something that allows a person to accept things, all things, be it triumphs or defeats or disease or cures or life or love or hate or anything, unconditionally. It's a fucking waste of time, and having the ability to justify the things that you do in accordance to god is a lie. The notion of things coming your way through meaningless and unheard prayer, is as ridiculous and stupid a thing as I have ever heard. People use the term blind faith to describe this phenomenon, and its a fitting description.
So what's left for people to cling to in this world? Nothing, as far as I can see. My parents work dead end jobs, and live in a rented house on main street in south porcupine Ontario. Who the fuck wants to do that? I live here and go to school, which is only the place to go for a person my age to get accustomed to the intricate little lies and fake people, the bullshit that seems to be life.
Is it family or friends that keep us grounded here? But still, it doesn't make me want to be here, it only prevents me from leaving.
I would never thank god, even if he did exist, I don't owe him anything.
Submitted by blujnbbyqn (user info) at 2003-02-26 01:33:19 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The last several reviews on this thread have compelled me to respond again.
First let me say that to all of you blessed with strong faith and unquestioning belief, GREAT! It is easier that way. I for one would love to have an un-shakable spiritual faith in GOD. Organized religion encourages this "have faith" system. Unfortunately, without a firm up-bringing in any recognized religion, I have always questioned God's existance.
There are many books on the subject, as is well documented in this thread, but it seems to me that they contradict each other as often as possible. I am not as well read on the subject as Yidele or some of the others that have reviewed this post, but I look to these books and others for answers all the same.
Fictional books such as Childhood's End by Arther C. Clark and Waiting For The Galactic Bus by Park Godwin have sparked my imagination and offered fanciful thoughts that black and white dogma does not allow.
I wrote this on this thread before and IMO it bears repeating. It was a remark about the lack of evidence of God being a good enough reason to not believe in God.
There is little to no proof or factual data to prove any religion. The god/divine power/creator that I imagine would want it that way.
By giving us so little actual "fact" and so many differing ideologies, we are left to decide for ourselves what and how to worship.
A god, many gods, kharma, fate, luck, power, money, etc. That is, after all, free will.
Any creator worthy of mankind would be intangible. Why give us the ability to question our existence and our disposition after existence?
Besides, why would any one diety want to take on the responsibility of all our experiences on earth? All those act-of-god tragedies, all of the crusades and genocide? All of the human suffering known to man could and would be blamed on THAT god.
Can you imagine?
Why offer us proof of it's existence, knowing full well that it would then be blamed?
What would be the point of giving us the knowledge that we would eventually die?
Humans have the ability to endure this life and accept whatever comes after it precisely because we have no PROOF.
It is any human's instinct to look for answers. Debating about any subject while still searching for answers usually guarantees failure. Offering a hand to a fellow human that is searching or lost invariably guarantees happiness, or at the very least peace.
With all the things there are for us to debate! A thread on religion could have been a positive, thoughtful and enriching thread. Instead of shedding light, this thread has become dark and negative.
I wonder if, in all the anger, any of us have made our God proud?
Submitted by BongZilla (user info) at 2003-02-26 00:49:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Wow. I'm at a loss for words. If You don't acknowledge a higher being, at the least, how do you account for things such as creation of the universe? The creation of mankind? We have science, and thr only thing science tries to explain is the unknown. I usually try to sway from religious arguments even though I'm a devout believer because I don't believe i'm endowed with a gift of preaching like some. If you aren't a bliever, as many are, what do you have to live for? Do you liek a just life for the sole reason of being good. If I didn't believe in a afterlife I wouldn't give two shits about what I was doing today. The big bang theory: as supported by physicists: Matter cannot be created nor destroyed (and I am a student of science so if you feel a refute, bring it on). But the Big bang theory, universes' collided and BAM! So I gotta run, duty calls, I will be back.
Submitted by KyleMitchell (user info) at 2003-02-26 00:00:34 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The fact is that it does not matter if god exists, or created man, because it wont change a single thought in the heads of devout religious believers. No matter how irrefutable the evidence, no matter how obvious it is that god does not exist, religious people simply will not break their blind, almost pathetic faith. How much more obvious could it possibly be that there is no such thing as an almighty being. There is absolutely NO proof, not a single shred of evidence, and personally, i would never use something that has no proven redeeming characteristics as the guideline for my life. It is ridiculous to base your life, your only shot at existence, upon thousands of years of hearsay and conjecture. It is like the childs game of telephone, where the true story becomes so warped it is almost unrecognizable as the original truth. The only appealing characteristic of religion is that it offers a crutch to the weak human personality, and it caters to its most basic instincts, such as fear, and conformity. Who wants to accept the fact that you live on a cold rock, among billions of other people, indistuingishable as one from the next. Religion offers the prospect of eternal peace and salvation. That is the most arrogant and supercilious assumption that mankind has ever spewed out in numbers, for who is to place us above any other creature, in terms of value of life. There is no such thing as a universal code by which to to live your life, and to listen to religion, with its history of corruption, hypocrisy, molestation, its excuses to justify its wealth and power, is a fucking mistake. God is dead, and his one time purpose of explaining the unexplained is dwindling away. Who wants to owe his existence to something that allows what you see going on every fucking day until you want to blow your own brains out just to throw it back in his face. If i was gonna believe in anything the bible said, it would be in satan. He was way more bad ass anyways.
Submitted by lowsodiummonkey (user info) at 2003-02-25 12:02:41 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
You scare me....
Submitted by ScJ (user info) at 2003-02-24 22:05:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
urasickscurat...
I didn't just say "I think my life is the shit", I gave you GOOD REASON to fortify my statement. I've had a pretty damn good life, and I explained why in a previous post. I guess if you think my life is not so good, I'd like to hear what you think of as a good life.
Submitted by urasicksurat <none.at.none.com> at 2003-02-23 20:42:23 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
At 15, you may think your life is the shiznit.. but watch out now, soon enough you'll realize the horrendous amount of retards and fools that will be the ruin of any prospects of having a "good life".
Submitted by ScJ (user info) at 2003-02-22 23:01:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Sorry for posting so much
I just saw AIRKP's comment, and I have read the same book. Its unbelievable, so if you're in doubt, and have some free time, pick it up. I also suggest "More than a Carpenter", great book.
Submitted by ScJ (user info) at 2003-02-22 22:57:43 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
More info on hobbits? If you wanna argue a case, do it right
Old Testament: 39 books
The first five (the Jewish Torah) all about God. Five entire books dedicated to God, God's "laws", and about Israel.
Then Prophets, then some random writings.
All this about God. Thats just the Old Testament.
New Testament: 4 Biographies (also known as the Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John)
1 History (Acts)
22 Letters (by Paul, or acreditted to him)
1 Apocalypse (also known as Revelations)
All this about Jesus.
I'd say thats more than a shit load of info, and much more than some petty (although unbelievably awesome, entertaining, and well written) books about hobbits, and lords of rings.
Once again, know something about your topic before you start fucking with people who believe.
I am only 15 myself, but I depend on God. Some may call me weak, or that I shouldn't believe so strongly about something so questionable. But I've believed all my life, and I gotta tell you, I've had one fuckin great life. I was born into a well to do and loving family, go to an amazing private boarding school (I know, i'm pretty fuckin spoiled, sorry), and I've gotten tons of action (you know what the fuck I'm talkin about)
So I guess this was all good luck huh? And I'm sure that it's also good luck that the Earth was made too? I say no...
Submitted by ScJ (user info) at 2003-02-22 22:48:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
More info on hobbits? If you wanna argue a case, do it right
Old Testament: 39 books
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-02-21 19:00:41 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
That is pretty much what I believe. I've come to accept the fact that some people need to believe in something to be stable, so I don't have a problem with it... It just irks me. What is beyond me is that people still believe in things like "the holy ghost" aka. God. If I started believing in things like magic and hobbits (for example), people would lable me as a freak... Even though there is just about the same, if not more, information about Hobbits and Middle Earth than the bible and all it holds.
In other words, I don't understand how all those bible-thumping heathens actually try to step and defend what they believe in when you confront them on any kind of aspect about it. Most people are weak minded fools. Sad.
Submitted by Penguin at 2003-02-21 17:49:34 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
what the fuck is wrong with yidele?
she all ryming and stuff.
and writing huge replies.
i think
that there is no god.
man was scared and alone,
so they made someone to talk to.
god.
then it got out of hand and other people
started talking to god.
then it got into a whole thing of religion
and other people made they're own versions of god,
allah, and other people.
and all you people who are gonna bitch at me
ahhhh thats not how it happened! thats not true!!
so, all you people, SUCK MY FAT ONE
Submitted by BongZilla (user info) at 2003-02-14 17:06:05 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Fantastic comment, AIR. I believe the people who are fastest to criticize are those that are the least informed.
Submitted by AIRKP (user info) at 2003-02-14 16:23:27 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
First of all I would recommend reading a book called "Case for Christ" it may help some of you realize what the Bible and God really are. Next, a lot of people in these reviews have said that the Bible contradicts itself and that some of it is wrong and crap like that. There are rules that, if some of you were really raised as Christians as you say, you should know. They are very simple rules and there are only two that I will address here, 1. The Bible never means what it never meant 2. The Bible never says what it never said. This means that flaws that you find in the Bible or contradictions aren't there the reader just misinterprets them. On another note, there are many Christians that don't just believe in strict creationism, e.g. some Christians, such as myself, believe that God used things such as evoltion to create his universe. Unfortunately, a lot of the Christians that you see on T.V. believe in things that most Christians don't, the rest of us get lumped into categories with them and it makes the Christian religion as a whole look ignorant. If you bother to read the book "Case for Christ" you will find that there are many records of Jesus along with his apostles. I read one of the reviews that said Jesus just decided to tell everyone that he was the son of God because it sounded like a cool thing to do. Jesus could not of read the prophecies in the Old Testament of the Bible such as the book of Elijah. Even if he could however, it would be the biggest hoax ever put on and it would require many more people than just 12 apostles. For example, at the last supper Jesus told Peter that whoever dipped their bread next would be the one that would betray him, that happened to be Judas, to make a long story short Jesus would have had to tell Judas something along the lines of "Ok Judas tonight I'm going to be at the garden, you are going to come and kiss me on the cheek, then you go tell the Roman guards that I'm here, after I get crucified and go through the most terrible torture anyone could imagine you go buy a field and then hang yourself with the silver that you got for giving me up at your feet" this is one of many examples of how it would not have been possible for any human being to pretend to be Jesus, indeed this was not a human being it was God incarnate. A lot of the things in the Torah don't apply to Christianity today because Jesus changed everything. The Torah is the Jews bible for the most part, when Jesus came he changed a lot of the laws and the rules for salvation. I think this can be best described with an analogy that my priest gave me. He said "In 1997 I got a new van. I had a 5 year old son at the time who liked to play with rocks. While I was in the house my son took a rock and made scratches all over the door of my car. It wouldn't of mattered if he only made one scratch or 100 because I still would have been angry. This is like God, God sees every little dent in your car and with those scratches God can't even look at you. Jesus is the new paint job for your car, only through Jesus can God see us and only through Him can we reach salvation." The last thing I have to say is, if there is no God what do we have to look forward to? Why are we here? What is the point of living?
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-13 15:08:08 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
you be da judge, razor. I try to leave no unclaimed irony in my posts as I wouldn't want some premature ejaculating sheep molester to claim it is theirs.
Look here Razor, I am better than "those people" - you know which ones I mean - those hypocrytical assholes who generalize & make broad, sweeping statements about "those people". I hate that. I resent that. It makes me itch. It discombobulates me & causes me to bring forth myriads of pet peeves & personal bias. Fuck those people
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2003-02-13 14:54:41 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Yidele, you said:
"A good rule of thumb regarding opinions as a base for argument is that you may safely disreagrd any which begin with: " I really resent that ...." or "I really hate those people who...." - they are laden with emotional baggage of persons not interested in debating the merit of ideas but their pet peeves, itches & general discombobulations - in other words prematurely ejaculating sheep molesters incapable of relating anything without bringing in their myriads of predjudices & hormone driven angst. Fuck those people."
Was the inherent hypocrisy of that last sentence intentional or accidental?
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-13 14:41:41 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Dear Shay des Poonah:
You did not offend me, neither did you ( or could you ) insult me. As someone much wiser than either you or I noticed, in order to be insulted by you I'd have to respect your opinion. I don't.
A good rule of thumb regarding opinions as a base for argument is that you may safely disreagrd any which begin with: " I really resent that ...." or "I really hate those people who...." - they are laden with emotional baggage of persons not interested in debating the merit of ideas but their pet peeves, itches & general discombobulations - in other words prematurely ejaculating sheep molesters incapable of relating anything without bringing in their myriads of predjudices & hormone driven angst. Fuck those people.
I am glad that you appreciate my fine verses - they were indeed meant as a reply to a general "harangue-ment" of which you are a specific case - much as al capone in his later years was a specific case of general syphylitic dementia.
So far, S.Hates Phoenix, you've not provided anything except personal bias, no argument, no statement of principles, nothing except broad generalizations & your own estimates of likelyhood based on what? random ass prints? but enough o'that. You are welcome to try to insult me, only you'd have to earn my respect for your opinions first - those are long odds indeed.
kind regards,
Yidele
Submitted by ShadowFenix at 2003-02-13 13:57:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I seem to have offended yidele.
Though my message wasn't directed to an individual, he responded directly to me....in a poem...you're so cool.
I believe in what I believe in. Sure, the theory that God created man is plausible. But the theory that man created god is much more plausible.
The fact is, Roman, the second you mention Religion, you are guaranteed a debate.
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-13 03:57:59 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
funny thing is, Roman, that while you claim to reject "blissfull ignorance" as regards religion, you practice it to the hilt where it regards scientific theories as a basis for worldview, social interaction & many other places - as we all do. Of course being inconsistant & irrational is very human, but it sort of clashes with your grand statement regarding "I don't believe in anything but myself". In order to function you have to take some things on "faith" simply because you will never have a complete set of data. When you step into an elevator you have faith in the structural integrity of the box, believe that the cable will not snap. When you travel by plane You have faith ( sometimes ill placed) that the vehicle won't suddenly fall out of the sky - you daily practice faith in thousands of incidents, often ( of this I am sure) blissfully unaware of the nature or design of a particular appliance or mechanism or the good will/competence of folks operating it.
Fact is, you do indeed practice blissfull ignorance, all the more blissfull by the fact that you don't realize that you practice it. It is a part of the human condition & no amount of bitching will change that, why is it then, that out of the thousands of unsupported assumptions we make in our daily lives you picked on religion as your nemesis?
Earlier on you claimed that you could write books about what is wrong with me ( doubtless they'd be entertaining fiction ;), I make no such claim with regard to you except for one issue - your irrational opposition to religion. Religion bothers you, otherwise you'd not have bothered to write about it. My personal theory is that your emotional reaction to religion is a direct result of your parents' attempts at having you religiously educated - it is part of the same rebellion all youth undergoes in order to establish itself as a person & it just happens that religious values ( which your parents thought worthwile) are a convenient whipping boy for your frustrated desire to show them that you're an adult by making an arbitrary choice. Children reject the values of their parents - that is the way of the world - but if you consider your motivations for this choice ( hormono/emotional) you'll realize that it is not a rational choice but one forced on you by physiology. It therefore follows that your "reasoning" ( I use the word in its broadest sense to accomodate your extremely illformed harangue) is an excuse, an attempt to rationalize your irrational dislike of religion.
Either that, or O'grady buggered you too hard & too often
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-02-13 01:50:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Ok... Actually, this thread hasn't really been shit on. Every reply is an answer. Basically, I was trying to find out if there was a god, why people believed in religion and why they decide to follow different beliefes, even though they all have basically the same goal; being happy. So far, I have realized that people will tend to follow things that have not been proven, and the meaning of religion and why some people follow it, and some others, use it.
In any case, I don't think anyone has brought up this question to not have a bunch of shit tossed on it by people wanting to give their beliefes, with their personal oppinions tacked on as well. I don't know what else to say... To each his own, no matter how absurd.
But a life of blissful (+/- ignorace) is not one for me, and I am more than happy with myself.
Submitted by lowsodiummonkey (user info) at 2003-02-12 09:38:28 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/02/11/cosmic.portrait/index.html
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-12 04:57:55 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
your "argument" so far: duuh....gabriel's horn......duuuh...equatuions...duuuh.... oh, fuck it - you're an idiot!
The amazing thing is that having started with a harangue about science & physics, you stay as far away from the basis of your "argument" as possible. How can anyone treat what you have to say with anything but tolerance for the addlebrained, if you can't even understand what it is you're saying?
If you wipe your cheesy, cum gobbling yap, with scientific reasoning you ought to be able to present some of it, hell, ANY of it as corroboration to your harangue.You don't, You can't and you're done.
Ite, missa est
Submitted by BigJennDogg (user info) at 2003-02-12 00:27:24 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I guess it is just your point of view...but I know that there is a God...and I have seen him and felt him...maybe if you belived in anything you would too. You must be a very unhappy person. Me not cursing you and badmouthing what you just said is proof enough that there is a God...and you know what...God Bless you!
Submitted by hairowen (user info) at 2003-02-11 23:32:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
i agree this is going absolutely no where. So how bout you all watch fight club and try to be like Tyler Durden. It is the only way to live!
Submitted by urasicksurat <none.at.none.com> at 2003-02-11 21:49:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Idiot.
"...used for working with their bums"
Tee-hee, he said bum.. naughty! When will this thread ever end? It's not really going anywhere, much like the life of yid.
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-11 13:29:23 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
ShadowPenis, shallow wisdom,
self absorbed in faith believes,
were you ask him of electrons
could he show them, will he please?
Our world's built on asumptions,
our technology's built on faith
Though you use your com'pter daily,
quanta are but mental wraiths
"man created God" you claim,
have you any proof o' that?
no more than a body saying:
"ShadowPenis's an asshat"
There's no proof of God's existance
that assuming won't require
Our knowledge's on asumptions
based, and so's logic entire
you've no proof of own existance
all you see could be a dream
Time & matter's all relative
and of God you'd opinions deem?
Submitted by ShadowPhoenix at 2003-02-11 12:49:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
God was created by man.
I can't stand these people who have the attitude "You were abducted by aliens? Aliens don't exist you idiot!! Now, let's go worship our Holy Father."
I believe in faith. Not god, FAITH. I believe that religion was stretched and skewed and distorted over time and people began taking it all way too seriously. For all we know, the story of Jesus and his rebirth could have been a fictional story written 2000+ years ago that was taken seriously. Or it could have been an elaborated story.
GOD DID NOT CREATE MAN. There is no proof, and therefore NO ARGUMENT. Man created God and religion out of the primal fear of death and the unexplainable. We fear death and we will not except that as the end. "oh, it must be a spiritual journey to a higher plane of existence - Heaven. I have been good in my life and will be reborn as an eagle." Give me a break.
The existence of extra terrestrials is more plausable than the existence of God.
I believe in evolution. It is the logical, scientific explaination. I believe in faith. I believe people must have a faith, as they have become completely dependent on it. People NEED religion. I just hate it when people try to push their religion on me. Jahova's Witnesses can fuck off.
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-11 10:52:31 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
to continue is my pleasure
always ready am to serve
this retarded, brickwall'd cripple
never lacks sufficient nerve
'magination is your fairy
dex-ter-ity is my chum
scrollbars are for v-pooned morons
used for working with their bums
tho' you try yer feeble mind
with argumentation's mettle
only children & quadrupeds
are by quandries yourn a-fettled
God's existance or religion
isn't measured with *your* mind
tho' you'd find it hard to swallow,
arguments you will not find
logic is a man made tool,
man's mind is a feeble thing
if we can't our life encompas,
is universal knowledge our thing?
when your mom gave birth to you,
could you THEN *that* understand?
we are but milenia old,
how can we God comprehand?
If religion you revile,
that's your choice & no mistake
but can choice so arbitrary
universal truth o'er take?
Is God's word a work of fiction?
Is it but an allegory?
Is it middling history
written by the aged, hoary?
Is it meant as truth absolut,
is it for interpretation?
is it meant for just my people?
is it meant for all the nations?
If these questions are still questions
( and the Torah is quite old)
than how can you be so certain
as regards your claims so bold?
How can ign'rance be the key
to 5000 years tradition?
how can stupid, simple ponces
know what rules the One's volition?
There's no simple answer here,
tho' the simpleminded hope -
Ask a Levite, ask the Pope
or a Sadhu on much dope
all you'll hear's preverication
all you'll witnes is delay
all you'll notice is confusion
Though so certain seem they may
There's no answer to your quandry
that's on physical e'vdence based
when it comes to metaphysics
mankind walks about shitfaced
our nature, our mind
isn't made to understand
the empyran or infinite,
can you gabe's horn comprehend?
http://www.rhurrell.com/gabriel.html
Submitted by _JP (user info) at 2003-02-11 10:42:19 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Why can't people accept that we will never know everything. We won't know everything about physics (science) or metaphysics (religion). Stop trying to force anyone to have all the answers. It's not the destination; it's the journey that's important, so keep looking.
Submitted by Krackula (user info) at 2003-02-11 06:31:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
i didn't read the whole thread so i don't know how much of this has already been said but here are my beliefs about religion:
1. god didn't create man. man created god.
2. god was created as a way of controlling closed minded people. i.e.:you must live how god says you must or else your afterlife will be an eternity of suffering.
3. i believe that christianity, for one, is not meant to be taken literally, which it is by many many ignorant christians. i think the message is simply that if you live by the golden rule you will be rewarded and blessed by good fortune for doing so.
4. i think that messge is bullshit. it's just part of the zombifying effect of religion. if people think they are going to be rewarded for acting in a "saintly" manner, they are simply letting someone else's ideals control their lives/decisions.
5. i am not an atheist. i am agnostic... i do not believe in god as defined by any major religion, but i do believe that there very well could be a higher power but i'm not going to give my money to a fucking church because they tell me to.
6. i think anyone who believes in religion is going to hell. with all the religions out there, you can't possibly live up to the moral codes of ALL of them and thus you will be damned by one diety or another. it is hipocritical in the extreme to say that one particular religion is the stone cold truth about creation/fate/destiny/souls/existentialism so anyone who believes solely in the ideals of one religion is living in their own pseudo-blissful ignorant delusion.
Submitted by hairowen (user info) at 2003-02-10 20:37:24 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Yes, I fully agree with you, we don't know everything there is to know about the world, but suddenly now you don't want to jump to conclusions, but this has been going on for 2000 years, if anything this isn't a jump at all but more of a slow waddle. And like Mr. Poemman said before "One needn't separate science & christianity as they are completely distinct & unrelated realms which do not need separation anyway" so how can believing in God slow down science if they are completely unrelated? Plus you are the one believing in something that is totally not true. You believe you should be worshiped... how does this help anybody? It doesn't even if you just worship yourself, this helps absolutely no one.
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-02-10 17:22:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"And I definately know i did not evolve from a monkey or some BS like that."
Do you? I think somehow we were, but then again I don't know for a fact. We seem very similar.
Another good point again, Hairowed: How was it all created? I wonder that myself a lot, too. I mean, look how much is around us that we do not know about, it's hard to just say that there was a big bang that made it all... We can't jump to conclusions. Oh wait, then why say God was all behind it?
We should all just accept the fact that we don't yet know how everything works, cut 'n dry. Believing in something which might not be true may make it harder to accept what may actually be fact when it is uncovered... The world not being flat, comes to mind and the solar orbit.
Submitted by hairowen (user info) at 2003-02-10 17:08:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I'd like to know where this "condensed matter" came from, you still have the same problem no matter how condensed you get.
Submitted by hairowen (user info) at 2003-02-10 17:02:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Okay, okay, Even I didn't like that paragraph i wrote but the rest of it was good wasnt it? Yes indeed it was. Please just tell me how nothing exploded and I will be happy. There are so many flaws in it, many scientists, in fact, have disregarded it entirely. And I definately know i did not evolve from a monkey or some BS like that. I don't many other things evolving so why should i believe this? But truely anything you believe in on this subject is done solely on faith. We could argue about this for days. What I really was trying to push was the rest of the stuff i wrote.
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2003-02-10 16:41:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
1) A very interesting question and one that I've brought up before and I've only kind of heard an explanation for - but the answer begs the same question.
2) Nobody is saying something is created out of nothing in the Big Bang, matter was there, compressed so densely that it was a singularity. The reason that theory is out there is that it is the best model so far proposed for the physical evidence we've gathered. (i.e. the red shift we see when looking at just about everything else in the Universe, although from what I heard yesterday at the National Air&Space Museum in D.C. we're on a collision course with the Andromeda Galaxy.) I don't know where you got the idea that there's no physical evidence to support the Big Bang theory... that's Astronomy 101 level information... in fact the Big Bang theory came from them plotting out the neccessary direction that distant objects are taking based on physical evidence, and then "pushing the rewind button" on their model... everything came together.
Submitted by hairowen (user info) at 2003-02-10 16:29:49 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Yah, we know alot about how the world came into being, don't you just love how nothing tends to explode and create stars planets and life as we know it? This goes against everything science is
1) Matter cannot be created or destroyed, so how'd nothing make everything? 2) Everything tends to go from a state of order to chaos. For instance all the stars are eventually burning out, your bodies getting older and closer to death ect. Yes, science can hypothesis how the universe can be made but there is no physical evidence, so all we can do is guess. Unless you know how to make nothing explode... I must admit that paragraph I wrote was full of flaws just waiting to be torn apart, notice how it was the smallest one? Plus you have way too much time on your hands, why you writing moronic poems about other people? Attack the problem not the person giving you the problem.
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-02-10 16:25:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"You tried to seperate science and Christianity, your automaticly assuming every scientist is not a Christian. Thats like saying you can't play both baseball and soccer. Science is the study of OBSERVABLE events. Science cannot be used to decipher what happened 10,000,000,000 or even 10,000 years ago unless we have some facts we can base it on. SO basicly all theories on how the world was created are in the same catagory : fantasy. "
Ok, you are very right. Science IS exactly that, but, have you ever observed God? I am just saying, many people have not seen the things they worship. Thats like me going up to you and saying, I have a million dollars in my pocket. Based on the fact that many people believe in religion, they should also trust me that there is one million dollars in my pocket. Im not trying to debate science and religion, but more, people and religion.
On a side note, I am very surprised yid has made it this far... I can't imagine how a retarded cripple has the dexterity (or lack there of) to move such a thin scroll bar, let alone contniue to spew such crap... which I stopped reading. But please, continue.
Submitted by lowsodiummonkey (user info) at 2003-02-10 13:27:54 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
huh?
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-10 08:18:34 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
"...You tried to seperate science and Christianity, your automaticly assuming every scientist is not a Christian. Thats like saying you can't play both baseball and soccer. Science is the study of OBSERVABLE events. Science cannot be used to decipher what happened 10,000,000,000 or even 10,000 years ago unless we have some facts we can base it on. SO basicly all theories on how the world was created are in the same catagory : fantasy..."
1) One needn't separate science & christianity as they are completely distinct & unrelated realms which do not need separation anyway
2) Science CAN be used to "...decipher what happened 10,000,000,000 or even 10,000 years ago..." based on physical evidence of which there are tons. Whe know a lot about the way our world came into being, knowledge which is deduced from observable evidence. While there are definitely more things that we do not know, we can with some degree of certainty claim that the earth isn't flat, isn't the center of the universe, our galaxy or even our solar system. We can fairly accurately gauge the age of our planet, estimate the lenght of time our species exists, and by more direct archeological evidence describe more or less what went on 10, 000 years ago.
The scientific method produces reasoned, verifiable & mostly self-consistant knowledge about the world around us; It is therefore totaly out of place to describe theories based on solid research as belonging to the same general category as your notions of christianity, morality & incidentaly science - fantasy.
Science & religion are completely systems used for, by nataure, completely incompatible aims:
The scientific method attempts to describe the world around us using a known & verifiable toolset & producing known, verifiable & reproducible results. Science quantifies, measures the world around us & from that direct evidence attempts to construct a viable hypothesis whereby the phenomena we encounter can be understood. Science defines the limits within which the posited theories & hypothesis work, keeping rigidly to a well defined system of logic.
Religion is a system based on metaphysical ( as in other than, transcending, physics) concepts which are meant to establish the moral relationship between God/gods & man. As such, its "results" are neither verifiable, nor reproducible & also axiomaticaly not capable of being wholy known. Religion is based on knowledge exclusively revealed, not knowledge anyone may possess. Religion defines dogma which attempts to define the relation betw. God & man but always ( or almost always) in the form of commandments, orders or other admonition from axiomaticaly unquestioned authority, not resulting from reasoned debate of the alternatives. Hence statements like "Homosexuality is just plain wrong" - notice that this is a statement of moral principles, not reason.
As you see by now, the two systems have literaly nothing in common except the superficial structure given them by the fact that they are both HUMAN systems. It is this superficial similarity which confuses some folks, that and conscious attempts by fundamentalist X-tians to muddy the concept of science to their dumb-as-dirt compatriots. You really have to be profoundly stupid to confuse the two.
To me, the more interesting question is this: Why the fundamentalist X-tians would want to make their strictly dogmatic belief system appear "more scientific" ? IMO it is because the scientific method is an enormous success, influencing all the facets of our lives to an extent that X-tians feel threatened by a worldview which, BTW. completely incidentaly, makes the myths which are the basis for Xtian dogma disappear as smoke. Things would be much easier if Xtians treated the creation myth as it is - a myth - and not a literaly revealed blueprint for the creation of the universe, but they are trapped by their own dogma of Gods's infallibility and axiomatic asumption of truth. This fervor to sieze the high ground is more to be noticed amongst the various protestant denominations, mostly because they still believe in Gods continued & physicaly real presence & manipulation of our day to day lives which is hard to support if the "scientific" mindset prevails; that is of course unless the "scientific" mindset is compromised by introducing moral & religious dogma into a physical model of the universe.
It is this continous muddling of physics & metaphysics which is percieved as a conflict by our resident priestly cum receptacle, Roman, Phoz-x an perhaps others. Confusion is understandable - after all, they've been indoctrinated by various illmeaning "authorities" & now logicaly if naiively react to the inconsistencies between what they've been told & what they've learned ( however modest that knowledge is). What our smpletons don't understand is that religion itself has been misrepresented. This is unfortuantely the fault of Xtians, who in their drive for legitimacy try to be hollier than levites & kohenim by making claims for their cut-down version of the Torah that Jews or Jesus never made.
How many angels can dance simultaneously on the head of a pin? Does that question even make sense?
It doesn't & this question exemplifies the whole "argument" between science & religion - you're talking apples & novels here ( not apples & oranges ) apples are what they are, we can test their atributes & describe them, but in their existance they are independant of man. Novels are ONLY in relation to man, to the rest of the universe they do not exist.
Submitted by supporter of the good and righ <aspaz2.at.hotmail.com> at 2003-02-09 23:30:42 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
i completly agree with what hair_owen said iam just to lazy to type something that long. If your an atheist and your posting messages here, you need to get up from your computer for more to go to the bathroom or eat and take a look at the world around you. Your saying that everything in this whole universe happend by chance? get out more.
Submitted by hairowen (user info) at 2003-02-09 23:21:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
This is a VERY interesting thread. I read the first hundred or so then skipped to the end. One of the first posts was about how we should believe in ourselves not God. Thats bs, we wouldn't be anywhere if we didn't look beyond ourselves. As a human race we would be extinct. I watch the tv for 10 minutes it's all these consumer ###### telling me that I'm special, I'm different. When in reality we are all the same decaying mass of useless crap. Our society has focused completely on ourselves. And you mock Christians for what they believe in, but at the end of the day are they happier than you? The purpose of this life is to be happy I'm assuming. AND if they have an undying optimism I'd say they are pretty successful. You may think you're better than Christians and they are primitive and ignorant, but maybe you're the one blinded to the truth?
You tried to seperate science and Christianity, your automaticly assuming every scientist is not a Christian. Thats like saying you can't play both baseball and soccer. Science is the study of OBSERVABLE events. Science cannot be used to decipher what happened 10,000,000,000 or even 10,000 years ago unless we have some facts we can base it on. SO basicly all theories on how the world was created are in the same catagory : fantasy.
You also said how people follow lies and falsehoods and that is true, it is excactly what your doing. WORSHIP OURSELVES! Isn't that just what the media is feeding to us? Your following a lie too. Religion in essence does not seperate us as a people it unites us. What if everyone thought like you? Everyone would be going around expecting everyone else to worship them? How does that unite us? You are not something special or unique, if I passed you on the street I wouldn't think you any different than the person i passed a few seconds before. The religion you're following is called hellinism and that was created by the Greeks before Jesus Christ ever came. SO you are actually is the one out of date and needs change. Christianity is one of the things that keeps "this machine" running. You are the wrench that gets in the way, look past yourself for once.
Submitted by urasicksurat <none.at.none.com> at 2003-02-09 22:23:27 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I can only imagine the sleep deficiency yid must be experiencing as a result of tossing and turning day and night in hopes that his feeble mind can churn out more un-original drivel. This isn't even about religious discussion anymore, it's just about his sick obsession with priests doing to Roman what he only wishes he could one day get the chance to.
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-09 06:43:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Your too much to deal with... for a sane person, that is. I can't believe how much steaming crap you've spewed on this thread, and I am sure on other threads, too (posts with pics about birds and other random crap (wtf, seriously) comes to mind).
I suppose I should egg you on a tad more, since it is all very amusing, but even pestering simpletons has it's limits of intrest... It's like talking to a brick wall, and in your case, a retarded brick wall.
Steaming crap is all I spew -
posts with pictures, birds & such
you should egg me on some more,
but to deal with I'm too much?
Come now Roman, come now lover,
to the 'O' zone we will travel,
tell me what it is you crave,
your desires we'll unravel!
pestering simpletons has it's limits
for a person sane, that is
brick wall brooks no arguments
- brick wall doesn't know it is
Come now Roman, come now lover,
to the 'O' zone we will travel,
tell me what it is you crave,
your desires we'll unravel!
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-09 06:43:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Your too much to deal with... for a sane person, that is. I can't believe how much steaming crap you've spewed on this thread, and I am sure on other threads, too (posts with pics about birds and other random crap (wtf, seriously) comes to mind).
I suppose I should egg you on a tad more, since it is all very amusing, but even pestering simpletons has it's limits of intrest... It's like talking to a brick wall, and in your case, a retarded brick wall.
Steaming crap is all I spew -
posts with pictures, birds & such
you should egg me on some more,
but to deal with I'm too much?
Come now Roman, come now lover,
to the 'O' zone we will travel,
tell me what it is you crave,
your desires we'll unravel!
pestering simpletons has it's limits
for a person sane, that is
brick wall brooks no arguments
- brick wall doesn't know it is
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-09 06:37:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Your too much to deal with... for a sane person, that is. I can't believe how much steaming crap you've spewed on this thread, and I am sure on other threads, too (posts with pics about birds and other random crap (wtf, seriously) comes to mind).
I suppose I should egg you on a tad more, since it is all very amusing, but even pestering simpletons has it's limits of intrest... It's like talking to a brick wall, and in your case, a retarded brick wall.
Steaming crap is all I spew -
posts with pictures, birds & such
you should egg me on some more,
but to deal with I'm too much?
Come now Roman, come now lover,
to the 'O' zone we will travel,
tell me what it is you crave,
your desires we'll unravel!
pestering simpletons has it's limits
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-02-09 02:48:25 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Your too much to deal with... for a sane person, that is. I can't believe how much steaming crap you've spewed on this thread, and I am sure on other threads, too (posts with pics about birds and other random crap (wtf, seriously) comes to mind).
I suppose I should egg you on a tad more, since it is all very amusing, but even pestering simpletons has it's limits of intrest... It's like talking to a brick wall, and in your case, a retarded brick wall.
Good day, sir.
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-08 16:20:45 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
an O'gady text2speech original - here are the sonnets as I recieved them from fr. O'grady:
http://groups.msn.com/adumpingspace/zounds.msnw?fc_p=%2FZounds
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-08 08:41:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"you're a flaming human waste-land"?
You're the reason for this poem
a-flaming - it could be said
human pity motivates me
waste-land of your empty head
empty headed, evil smelling
human wasteland, soulles pud
tho' those adjectives fit nicely
that's small comfort to be had
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-08 07:48:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Now in mp3!
http://groups.msn.com/adumpingspace/Documents/Zounds%2FTo%5FRoman.mp3
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-02-08 03:32:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I don't know what to say anymore but that your a flaming human waste-land. In any case, as long as you continue to waste your time and amuse me, along with steal the lines of others in your horridly constructed rhyme-a-thons, I shall be amused.
And the show has reached a new low.
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-07 16:00:18 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I've just recieved a packet from O'grady in which the deperate ( and now well on his way to be defrocked) priest continues to pitch woo in the direction of Roman. I know this is tedious for him, but I cannot refuse to discharge my obligation to O'grady ( who BTW, claims he never refused to discharge at Roman's request either). At any event, here are the text cut from still quivering passion pink email:
"Flagrant,flaming, faggish queer" is a good fragment which is why frater O'grady decide to use it in his next epistle:
To Roman
Darling Roman insincere! -
though you hide it to be sure,
Flagrant, flaming, faggish, queer
this I see in your eyes pure
Life's to short for niggling riddles,
love's to precious to be shed
come now, give me what I live for
bring your booty to my bed
I will promise to be gentle
your sweet bum is far too dear
tho' my pastoral's rather knobby
t'will bring pleasure - don't you fear
When at last our lust is sated,
when I've probed what needed drilling
you will reach that seventh heaven
( you might find it rather filling)
Come now, Roman, come now lover
to the 'O' zone we will travel
tell me what it is you crave
your desires we'll unravel!
To my departed one, Roman
What calls you now away from your lover
to run the hills manflesh a-searching?
When passioned-hot bodies a-quiver
throbbing, hard-probing & ever thirsting?
Your nature calls you - she is your master
tho' you deny it to be quite sure,
hunger for man-juice may makes you wander
your passion, Roman, She is unpure.
Submitted by urasicksurat <none.at.none.com> at 2003-02-06 21:48:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Yup, and you mispelled faggots. Thanks for trying.
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2003-02-06 10:35:38 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You spelled dreidel wrong.
Submitted by urasicksurat <none.at.none.com> at 2003-02-06 00:33:34 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Wishin' he was black
Yiddie rhymes and tries to talk smack
Flagrant, flaming faggish queer
He must hold Roman's comments dear
As he spins his jizz-stained dradel
For Roman he'd gladly rob any cradle
Stop wasting your time
Hey.. what's that on the ground? I think it's a dime
Pick it up, I know you want to
Now please, find something better to do
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-05 18:05:02 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Years passed, Rom grew older
he finally stopped singing soprano
the crazy juices of puberty
were just like Roman vino
O'grady settled in earnest
to teach a new crop of molesters
but always he thought of his Boychik
especially when muttering vespers
then came one day when O'grady
cruising the web for some booty
Roman's name read once in passing
( the website was www.tootyfrooty.com)
At once hot flood of affection
and scalding tears of remorse
caused him to drop his frater
(he was a-stroking, of course)
Her cried half the night in his cell
prayed t'other half for salvation
Rom's booty had again cast its spell
O'grady had found motivation
Straigth away, in the next day's morrow
he cast his email on the currents
the tide brought it to my door
and bid me deliver its contents:
Dear Roman, when write you on Uber
take kind regard of your Lover
who pines away in his cloister
your booty's in his thoughts, moreover
O'grady would have you to dinner,
O'grady would have you eat sausage
O'grady would have you bend over
O'grady would drive home the message
Tho' years & miles divide you
O'grady still wants your booty
It doesn't matter at all
that you're stupid, ignorant & snooty
Submitted by Roman (user info) at 2003-02-05 17:14:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Yea, lowso, nice calls.
Who cares what religion was, let's all look at what it is now, and you have pointed it out as being many excuses. I can't think of it being used for any other reason than an excuse and/or a crutch for a stuggling mind.
Submitted by lowsodiummonkey (user info) at 2003-02-05 11:44:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Alright. Stop this crap.
It's obvious as the light of day in the 21st century that religion is the "excuse" people use.
Religion is the excuse that one uses to explain something they can't fiqure out or doesn't want to put the effort into trying to fiqure something out. Religion is excuse one uses to not accept something. Religion is the excuse one uses to ignore their own personal problems and blame something or someone else.
---
Religion is the excuse a parent disowns a gay child (or the other way around: i.e. - A man who knows his family would disown him so he goes into the priesthood since he can't be with anyone there anyway).
Religion is the excuse use when one's marriage sucks and they decide to become born again and now they have sometime to preoccupy themselves.
Religion is the excuse that a leader uses to attain power and use others to do their bidding.
Religion is the excuse one could use to murder.
Religion is the excuse to hold on to one's beliefs because he/she was so sheltered and now that person is too sacred to admit stuff they were taught is wrong.
Religion is the excuse one uses to make themselves feel better without having an explaination (i.e. - Jesus will help me find my car keys; I bunch of crystals on my chest at night will clear my nose)
Religion is the excuse to use to be highly motivated in something because one hasn't figured out what the hell to do with their life yet.
---------------------------
All these are examples based on people I know. I invite everyone to start listing their own examples of people (or themselves) who use religion as an excuse to do or not to do something to actually improve themselves or the world. And don't give any crap about how different religion groups help their communities out with funding and other stuff because I think hardcore religion screws up more people personally then actually helping a community.
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2003-02-04 14:33:43 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Other Jeremy -
As regards your claim that the Big Bang required something outside our ten dimensional space-time, from what I understand, most physicists believe that the catalyst for the Big Bang was a pocket, or bubble, of ten dimensional space which divided due to eddies in (not trying to sound like Star Trek) the space time continuum, leaving a four dimensional space and a six dimensional space that was mathematically unstable, the subsequent collapse of which was what caused the Big Bang. Not that this proves or disproves God, but when you're talking about apples and oranges don't offer baseballs as evidence.
As regards your argument that the odds of life developing are astronomical, there are a number of points on which I must disagree with you.
First and foremost, despite the "odds" against this kind of life forming, in the vast reaches of the universe if it formed once and only once, and against all odds survived and propagated and managed to eventually develop into something intelligent enough to invent language and ask questions, it is only logical to presume that they would be the ones asking the questions. To summarize: To say that we have life here is evidence that God exists is silly, because if there ARE odds, no matter how long, and they happened SOMEWHERE, then only at that place would there be creatures who could question whether it could possibly have happened by accident. The volcanic slag on Io is not interested in the question.
In addition, all evidence from the geological record indicates that the earth was once far far more radioactive than it is now (I'll not bore you with a lecture on atomic half-life) and that a wealth of the initial changes that occurred in evolution were due to mutation - and that means that there were probably 10,000 horrific failures for every success. And if you think that you can't wreak major changes in a population quickly through sexual reproduction, just look at all the varieties of dogs that are crafted by breeders. And evolutionarily that occurred in a blink.
Finally, I must agree with Yidele (and regular Ubersiters know how common THAT is) on the changes that have occurred within Christianity. I've read more history than I care to admit, and the history of early Christianity is a history of dispute over creed, consolidation of power, and wheeling and dealing. For crying out loud, the Emperor of bloody Rome convened a Council so that everyone could settle down on a common version, and you're fooling yourself into what you want to believe if you think that they just happened to settle on the one divine truth in the midst of that - much was decided in the name of unity and political expediency.
Submitted by yidele (user info) at 2003-02-03 21:30:16 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Am I not paying attention? I thought that what I've had to say about the synoptic gospel problem answers your claims about the gospels supposedly being written by people who knew christ in his lifetime... but since you choose to ignore that, I'll have to adddress it; The synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark & Luke) are known by that name because after even the most cursory analysis they all reflect on a common WRITTEN source from which large swaths of text were COPIED. The synoptic problem is discussed in depth in the links I've cited, but even without reading that material it is obvious that they ( the gospels ) are the work of copiers, not eyewitnesses. To put it simply, the gospels are a work of fiction based on another , perhaps more genuine account but they are not the eyewitness testimony they present themselves as, since despite the swaths of common material, they differ in lenght & composition ( meaning that material reported in one isn't found in the other). Since no original material from which the gospels were copied survives, we can only depend on lexical & semantic analysis of the texts which was undertaken by many people, none the least being :
William R. Farmer, The Synoptic Problem: A Critical Analysis (Dillsboro NC: Western North Carolina Press [dist. by Mercer University Press
Joseph B. Tyson and Thomas R. W. Longstaff, Assisted by E. A. Tripper and L. Marvin Guier, Synoptic Abstract (Wooster Ohio: Biblical Research Associates, 1978)
Christopher Tuckett, "Jesus and the Gospels" in The New Interpreter's Bible ed. Leander E. Keck et al. (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1995) 8:75-76, gives a brief summary of the "Synoptic Problem".
( this is a severly abridged list)
As you will see, a good bit of analytical work has been done on this subject & as you'll find, the authorities agree as to the real nature of the synoptic dilemma. I am curious what, if any, evidence you may have for the gospels 1) authorship 2) time of writing? as far as I am aware, no such direct evidence exists, further no direct evidence ( other than some oral tradition) exists of Jesus' life. Jesus' supposed contemporaries do not mention him, neither do people who should have remebered him directly such as Josephus Flavius, who has nothing to say about Jesus the rabbi, preacher or even make-believe messiah, and his Antiquitates Judeorum & Bella Judaica are the standard reference work regarding the politics & history of the period in Palestine. He does mention the death of John the baptist, but the date given is some years after jesus' putative death ( around ad 35).As we all know from reading the gospels, John the baptist is supposed to claim primacy for Jesus, something which could hardly be missed by Josephus, if indeed it happened at all. This is not to say that Jesus did not exist, merely that he was an unimportant & little known person in his time & that the gospels which certainly do not agree with this wiev are suspect as 1) history 2) source of information about the nature & person of Jesus. If you should have any difficulty in finding these works, I'll be more than happy to point you to them on the web.
As regards the Parisees, they are the root from which modern Jewish tradition springs. As such, I am aware, having studied it, of my nations history & tradition. When I say that Jesus & most of his apostoles were Pahrisees, I say this with the knowledge that It was the Pharisees that formed the by far the largest & most culturaly influential segement of Hebrew society. While John the baptist was most probably an essene, Jesus, who lived with his family & did not avoid contacts with the opposite sex or the common people ( as did essenes who lived in secluded communities) was almost certainly a pharisee as witnessed by his insistance on direct contact with people & the fact that, being a poor carpenter of suspect lineage he could not be a sadducee ( mostly aristocratic, exclusively supporting the temple cult). Being a rabbi, a teacher & a "lay" person ( meaning not a priest, cohen or levi) is the anathema of sadducee belief. The Pharisee tradition based on common learning, the synagogue & rabbi, was formed while in exile. It is not surprising that it is the only tradition of the three to have survived the destruction of the temple & the exile to foreign lands. Jesus, if he existed, was a pharisee.
As regarding the Apocrypha, it is indeed amazing to hear you claim that they were not part of the Hebrew cannon. They were included in the Septuagint, the first authoritative translation of the hebrew old testament ( tanach) into greek. While many jews did not recognize them as torah, certainly the alexandrian jews did & apparently held them in such esteem that the material appeared in the first ever "authorised" translation of Hebrew cannon. The crucial difference between the Catholic church & the various protestant churches was the insitance that the holy writ be treated as a whole, not cut to fit the reformers dogma. To date it was the church who decided what was dogma & what wasn't ( history of the general councils once more ). While the issue of 'cannonicity' of the apocrypha remains, what is even more obvious is the fact that some christians ( protestants) purposely chose to exclude certain books from their edited version of the bible - this confirms what I've been saying about the ever-changable nature of christian dogma & the fact, that the bible as you know it is the result of Human editorial work heavily influenced by politics, in this case the catholic church cited apocrypha as source for some of the practices condemned by luther's theses; specificaly the selling of indulgences & purgatory. Humans edited the bible as you know it, humans chose specific passages based on their preference sometimes disguised as divine inspiration. Christianity is a man made artifact, barely solidified .
I am glad that you have a life, because you certainly don't have an honest argument. What you do have is a flurry of rationalisation attempting to explain away the real & still unanswered questions which will brook no faith based reply. "believe me" won't cut it - please explain how it is that a human artifact such as christianity, ephemeral & changing, can be the one & fixed truth revealed by a perfect God. While you're at it, explain how God can be three distinct persons AND at the same time One, how can he be both his own father AND son, How can God beget another eternal God who, being eternal existed before he was begat? Can you explain that without begging an indulgance to suspend our logical facilities & disbelief? I think not.
as to the cosmology presentation, I am partly inclined to agree with some of your assertions and partly inclined to be surprised at your deterministic hubris. There really is no argument that supports your life centric view, rather it ( your view ) is an attempt at rationalization akin to that two dung beetles might have on a pile of manure, convinced that the world exists so that two dung beetles may have shit to chew. Given the age of the observable universe ( your mil-age may vary according to the constantly re-evaluated constants), even the mildest estimate puts the lifespan of our species as an insignifacant fraction of the time universe existed, and our entire domain an insignificant flyspeck. Based on this alone, i find it hard to believe that the universe has been created merely so that we'd have somewhere to exist.
Submitted by Jeremy <Burton00311.at.Hotmail.com> at 2003-02-03 18:31:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Yidele, you are not paying attention to me. I stated very clearly that I could summarize the arguments for myself if anyone wanted me to, but since it would take time I would only do it under those circumstances and I suggest that they DO read those books that you say "the authority of which is suspect."