Why Europe is angry with the U.S. (2561 hits)
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Submitted by Donne Fan (View user info) at 2004-11-08 08:57:36 EST
http://www.ubersite.com/cgi-bin/message_get.cgi?message=1099918667694821012
After reading this post I thought I would respond with a few points.
I think the most important reason that Europe hates America is that we are in fact the only remaining superpower in the world, while Europe has been forced to seek to crush its national identities in an effort to compete. Even with an EU that encompasses even more land and people than the massive empires envisioned by men like Hitler, the U.S. still dominates. They prostituted the very soul of their national identity and they are still a second rate player in trade negotiations etc to the might Estates Unis. European's have a collective memory of greatness, but it is greatness that has passed by. France now mainly exerts itself by exercising its non vote on the U.N. security counsel (a position we should never have given the weak, nazi loving French as we rebuilt the country they did not defend). The United Kingdom used to be the empire upon which the sun never set, and now it is a teeny tiny island that has it's equivalent of the NYT calling for someone to assasinate our head of state, (Charlie Brooker of the Guardian).
European nations also hate our success. While their economies stagger on under the massive burden of socialism, ours continues forward despite some of the trappings of their failed economic system that was foisted upon us by FDR. Militarily we have prosecuted two staggeringly successful wars in the middle east from a historical perspective, wiping out armies on the other side with such a small loss of life comparitively that the media is left attempting to explain why 1 in every 150 soldiers deployed dying is somehow on par with military failures like Vietnam.
Europeans are also very different from the United States in terms of our moral values. While they consider themselves more civilized because they do not have the death penalty, they are left unable to prosecute a cannibal in Germany because they have no law to address it. They euthanize their elderly and they exploit their former colonial powers when they can (like France massacring the political opposition in Algeria). America has spread freedom around the globe, but they cannot understand that. Why go into Afghanistan? There has to be a reason other than spreading freedom! And why spread freedom when America could just be like France and allow the gang rape and brutalization of the muslim women who live in all Muslim ghettos set up for the large arabic speaking population that the French government denies citizenship to avoid giving benefits. No blood for oil was a popular slogan among the very hypocrites who invest heavily in the Sudan and prompt the government there to carpetbomb villages and send slave traders to areas where Fina wants to take oil.
They also have a media that hates the jews. Bin Laden's full tape did blame the United States siding with our ally Israel against the armies that sought to destroy it on his attacks against us. Idiots in the European media continue to remember Lebanon as if it was a brutal joyride by crazy jewish radicals instead of the strategic self defense of a small nation that had been attacked multiple times by every single one of its neighbors and who has not known peace for most of its history. Bin Laden hates the jews, and justifies killing civilians because of it, and he is joined by Arafat in that practice, a man so lionized by jew hating Europe that they gave him a Nobel Peace prize.
On to Fallujah, wiping out the terrorist butchers one city at a time and bring peace and the freedom to vote in a democracy for the first time to women in Iraq.
User Reviews
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2004-11-11 11:31:35 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
The following sections of your post are wrong or stupid or both.
"I think the most important reason that Europe hates America is that we are in fact the only remaining superpower in the world, while Europe has been forced to seek to crush its national identities in an effort to compete. Even with an EU that encompasses even more land and people than the massive empires envisioned by men like Hitler, the U.S. still dominates. They prostituted the very soul of their national identity and they are still a second rate player in trade negotiations etc to the might Estates Unis. European's have a collective memory of greatness, but it is greatness that has passed by. France now mainly exerts itself by exercising its non vote on the U.N. security counsel (a position we should never have given the weak, nazi loving French as we rebuilt the country they did not defend). The United Kingdom used to be the empire upon which the sun never set, and now it is a teeny tiny island that has it's equivalent of the NYT calling for someone to assasinate our head of state, (Charlie Brooker of the Guardian).
European nations also hate our success. While their economies stagger on under the massive burden of socialism, ours continues forward despite some of the trappings of their failed economic system that was foisted upon us by FDR. Militarily we have prosecuted two staggeringly successful wars in the middle east from a historical perspective, wiping out armies on the other side with such a small loss of life comparitively that the media is left attempting to explain why 1 in every 150 soldiers deployed dying is somehow on par with military failures like Vietnam.
Europeans are also very different from the United States in terms of our moral values. While they consider themselves more civilized because they do not have the death penalty, they are left unable to prosecute a cannibal in Germany because they have no law to address it. They euthanize their elderly and they exploit their former colonial powers when they can (like France massacring the political opposition in Algeria). America has spread freedom around the globe, but they cannot understand that. Why go into Afghanistan? There has to be a reason other than spreading freedom! And why spread freedom when America could just be like France and allow the gang rape and brutalization of the muslim women who live in all Muslim ghettos set up for the large arabic speaking population that the French government denies citizenship to avoid giving benefits. No blood for oil was a popular slogan among the very hypocrites who invest heavily in the Sudan and prompt the government there to carpetbomb villages and send slave traders to areas where Fina wants to take oil.
They also have a media that hates the jews. Bin Laden's full tape did blame the United States siding with our ally Israel against the armies that sought to destroy it on his attacks against us. Idiots in the European media continue to remember Lebanon as if it was a brutal joyride by crazy jewish radicals instead of the strategic self defense of a small nation that had been attacked multiple times by every single one of its neighbors and who has not known peace for most of its history. Bin Laden hates the jews, and justifies killing civilians because of it, and he is joined by Arafat in that practice, a man so lionized by jew hating Europe that they gave him a Nobel Peace prize.
On to Fallujah, wiping out the terrorist butchers one city at a time and bring peace and the freedom to vote in a democracy for the first time to women in Iraq."
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-11 10:37:47 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Quasi what are you talking about?
Anyone who believes that the primary function (or motive) of the US has been to spread freedom around the globe should be forced to live in any of the dozens of countries that America has "set free." That or they should read some history books.
Hmmm...Afghanistan...Iraq...searching for more examples...south korea? Surely you do not mean Panama where we removed a dictator who was a narco trafficer but also relinquished control over a canal that was not only massively important strategicly but also served as the closest to a colonial exercise of power America ever had (if you think America is/was a colonial power and you mean that in any sense other than economically you are either massively ignorant of history or impossibly deluded).
Wals whatever,
If we had not entered either war, the side that won would have been the side we defeated. Britain and historians recognized that. As for the Aussies...what did they contribute as massive military triumph? Gallipoli? We did learn from the failures there how to do better when we had D Day in Normandy.
I have been to Russia several times and it is an impressive place. Fighting a convential war against Russia, using our proxies in NATO against Warsaw, we would have absolutely humiliated Russia which is why they spent all the money in their superstate to buy nukes.
Submitted by Donitsu2002 (user info) at 2004-11-11 08:41:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by dingo (user info) at 2004-11-08 22:43:39 (#)
Ranking: 2
Who really cares what the Euro-trash think. France and Germany need to take a long hard look in the mirror before they complain about any of our actions. Notice no one ask what the Americans think about the Europeans? Becuase the simple answer is--we don't. G'night.
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Actually, i have a lot of "Euro Trash" friends... from germany. I've never been very fond of the french... they seem too stuck up for my tastes.
Submitted by Walsareck (user info) at 2004-11-11 03:06:25 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Europe hates America not because of your excuse of an economy, but because the American government (And reading stuff on this site, I am bordering on saying the people of America aswell) are arrogant bastards who couldn't fight a proper war against equal foes to save their asses.
EXAMPLE: Russia, they were equal, if not better, so you had nukes aimed at them 24/7.
WWI and II, nations like Australia and Britain had Germany and her allies already on their knees before you came in, and guess who takes the credit? AMERICA.
Oh, yeah... US National Debt before Iraq and Afghanistan was about 4 trillion.. Now, it's MUCH worse, more than 6 trillion.
ASSHOLES - BUY YOUR TANKS WITH YOUR OWN MONEY.
Submitted by Quasiplasmohedron (user info) at 2004-11-11 02:48:15 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
There's no way in fuck I'm reading all those reviews, so I may be repeating what's been said, but are you nuts?
"Europeans are also very different from the United States in terms of our moral values. While they consider themselves more civilized because they do not have the death penalty, they are left unable to prosecute a cannibal in Germany because they have no law to address it. They euthanize their elderly and they exploit their former colonial powers when they can (like France massacring the political opposition in Algeria)."
You think there are no seriously flawed laws in the US? You think the US doesn't expoit it's colonial powers and it's status as the only real superpower??
Anyone who believes that the primary function (or motive) of the US has been to spread freedom around the globe should be forced to live in any of the dozens of countries that America has "set free." That or they should read some history books.
Submitted by thorpe87 (user info) at 2004-11-10 18:49:10 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.ubersite.com/m/51129
This ain't linkwhoring, it's my rebuttal.
Submitted by VaginaRavager (user info) at 2004-11-10 12:14:44 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
The world will any country you are part of
Submitted by The_taste_of_Monkeys (user info) at 2004-11-10 08:43:48 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
normally I'd come up with a well thought out incisve response about American arrogance.
However this just pissed me off far too much.
Fuck off.
Submitted by rmuser (user info) at 2004-11-10 08:40:01 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
This just in: I don't give a shit
Submitted by FuckTheArmy (user info) at 2004-11-10 08:12:07 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Oh dear. http://www.ubersite.com/m/51129 said it for me!
Submitted by Jungle_Jimanee (user info) at 2004-11-10 07:08:48 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
"I think the most important reason that Europe hates America is that we are in fact the only remaining superpower in the world, while Europe has been forced to seek to crush its national identities in an effort to compete"
Nobody in their right mind thinks like this, but you however do. This post says more about you than any of the issues, if you were European you think you would think like this.
Not everybody hates things that are more powerful than them.
Submitted by Hairsphincter (user info) at 2004-11-10 06:40:16 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
The Patriot Act does not act like a patriot. You, however, act like a blinkered fool.
America does not "spread freedom". It manipulates governments for it's own benefit.
You only need to look at the history of Indonesia to know that.
Submitted by 10c7c (user info) at 2004-11-09 23:24:29 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
just die
Submitted by thorpe87 (user info) at 2004-11-09 21:58:24 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Yeah I'm gonna post soon... I've got one more exam left in my last year of school so when that's over I'll start one. Anyway, I haven't received my confirmation code yet :) I might put that reply up as a post first cos it took me way too much time before a chemistry exam for me to let it go to waste as a reply...
In fact, if I don't get in to the uni course I want to, I can almost entirely blame that reply.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-09 18:34:45 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
bahahahahhahahahhaha:
"The U.K. is not a nation of cowards like the French and the Spanish, and an attack on your country would rouse the Winston Churchillesque fervor of the right"
I hadn't seen this. Smoky lives in fuckin' caricature. At least I don't take myself seriously when I generalize. It's stunning how some people can be educated but still deeply retarded when it comes to simple things. I wouldn't be suprised if he was an hardcore racist. Smokey must be fat, stupid, ignorant because that's what the stereotype says no? Although he kinda fits it pretty good.
Oh and Tony Blair isn't much different from Maréchal Pétain if you ask me. No spine nor balls and will prostitute himself to please Georgie Jr.
Submitted by Stin (user info) at 2004-11-09 18:24:06 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
App, no one will attack Britain I think because it will move you further to the right. The U.K. is not a nation of cowards like the French and the Spanish, and an attack on your country would rouse the Winston Churchillesque fervor of the right and would see the ever rightward moving Tony Blair skyrocket in popularity, especially after his speech promising massive action against the terrorists.
______________________________
I couldn't let this go without comment.
If the UK were to be attacked and the country moved to the right, Tony Blair would be screwed. He may be ever-rightwards-moving, but the Labour Party does still have a core of left-wing members who would not allow that shift. That would mean that the country would probably swing Tory, but the British National Party (almost Neo-Nazis) might get a scarily good showing. I think Tony Blair would struggle if we were to be attacked, because there was not a lot of popular support for the war in the UK and any attack would be seen as a direct consequence of our affiliation with the US.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-09 18:11:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
It's funny you think we suck because Montreal was voted by canadians all over the country as the most fun city to be in, by a huge margin. Even anglos recognize we're more interesting than them! Booyah! In your face you feckin' États-Uniens!
All right, that's enough.
Done spamming. +2 for damage.
p.s. you're still a nazi
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-09 17:10:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Thorpe I hope you actually post. I rather enjoyed your long reply, and your joke about deuce bigalow. I think you have a lot to say and should start submitting it to Uber. I especially like being hated and loved as someone who read your whole spiel.
Caula, Bre x is always going to be funny to me, kind of like midgets on horses or pies in the face.
Submitted by Random Joe at 2004-11-09 15:04:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
http://www.ubersite.com/m/37990#643447
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-09 10:31:24 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
smoky, it's the tenth time you mention the Bre X. You're sounding like a broken record.
Are you losing money in the Iraq war? Yes, you sound that stupid.
Submitted by RamJetMax (user info) at 2004-11-09 10:30:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
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Submitted by dingo (user info) at 2004-11-08 22:43:39 (#)
Ranking: 2
Who really cares what the Euro-trash think. France and Germany need to take a long hard look in the mirror before they complain about any of our actions. Notice no one ask what the Americans think about the Europeans? Becuase the simple answer is--we don't. G'night.
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Submitted by Flying_buttmonkey (user info) at 2004-11-09 07:24:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Wow, that's a pretty big brush you're tarring Europe with.
Unless you've asked every single person in the EU their exact feelings towards the US I don't think you can really say we're angry or hate you. Personally, my feeling towards America is ambivalence, tempered with a slight twinge of unease. You know when a drunk gets on your bus/train and sits there singing to himself? There's that weird tense feeling that you have no idea of judging what madcap and potentially dangerous thing they're going to do. Yeah, that feeling.
I'd prefer it if you guys were a bit further away, but other than that you do your thing and we'll do ours.
Lastly, you said Europe but I got from the post that you really meant just France.
Submitted by thorpe87 (user info) at 2004-11-09 06:53:59 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
On a side note, even I am a better singer than Rob Schneider is an actor.
Submitted by thorpe87 (user info) at 2004-11-09 06:41:00 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
There are so many stupid points in your post that I am going to have to go throught it paragraph by paragraph. Firstly, you seem to think that European countries have had to crush their national identities in order to form the EU, and that this has made them jealous of the United States. If you look at any of the great European nationalist movements that have taken place in history (I say great meaning powerful, not necessarily good) you will see that nearly all of them wanted a united Europe - Hitler, Napoleon and Caesar's movements being the most prominent. I think it is one of the great triumphs of modern history that finally Europe has become united peacefully. But even if they were resentful of the loss of their national identities (something which one currency and governmental policies do little to really change), this would not be any reason to call in to question America's foreign policies.
In your second paragraph you also make the assumption that the European economy is struggling. Dipshits like you need to look beyond the statistics given out by the Fox news website and the like. Just because America has a higher GDP or higher average share price than any other country on the Earth DOES NOT MEAN IT'S ECONOMY IS IN BETTER CONDITION. Have a look at where the United States' standard of living is compared to European countries. Having a few rich cunts live in your country does not make it a successful economy. While I'm not denying that the US is successful economically, I'm saying that Europe is in far better condition. Most of their countries are owed debt, not several trillion dollars in debt. And even if they were... again, this does not give them any reason to be critical of America. The opposite is true in fact - they are critical now because they have the economic power not to rely on the US, not because of jealousy or any other simplistic reason that may have crossed your mind. Yeah, Iraq's been real successful. Rather than looking at it by numbers of soldiers who have died - still to fucking many - look at it in terms of the cost to the American taxpayer, not to mention the loss of civilian life in Iraq. Hmmm... is Europe critical because of an illegal invasion of Iraq, or jealousy? That's a tough one...
You attacked Europe's moral values in the third paragraph. The arguments that followed were so pathetic they don't deserve rebuttal, but I'm going to do it anyway because I'm sick of people saying things don't reserve rebuttal and then leaving it as if though they've proved a point. The cannibal example was laughable: two sickos met on the internet and were both willing participants in eating that guy's cock. It's not as if though there was any Hannibal-style murders. But nonetheless, the authorities, and European society, tried the hardest they could to imprison this man, despite the fact that his victim was a willing participant - and they succeeded. You say "They euthanise their elderly", as if when a European reaches a certain age, there's a knock at the door and in come the authorities to euthanise them. What you should say is that Europe PERMITS people to be euthanised IF THEY WISH. Allowing people control over their own lives is hardly an immoral stance in my opinion, or in any sane person's. You also criticise Europe's foreign policy, and I am not going to defend that. But your point, in a roundabout kind of way, is that this is why the Europeans hate the Americans, because of America's highly ethical foreign policies. There is not enough space on this server to list the amount of atrocities permitted by the United States in the last half-century, so I am not going to try. Your point about Sudan is valid, but let me remind you that it is the EU who have been the only world power pushing for military intervention in Sudan since the genocide started. Your point about Muslim ghettos was so ridiculously stupid that all I am gonna do is agree with you and point out the fact that America is completely ghetto-free, and that American oil companies are extremely conscientious and moral (SARCASM FOR THOSE OF YOU WITH AN IQ LESS THAN THE AMOUNT OF AMERICAN FLAGS IN THEIR CUPBOARD).
Your last paragraph classified Europe alongside Bin Laden for their media's supposed anti-semitism. I cannot say this enough: BEING ANTI-ISRAEL DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN ANTI-SEMITIC. Nor does being anti-Zionist. Israel was a state established on the basis of an ancient religion, established on the ground owned by people who did not share those views about the history of their land. Europe's press does not hate America because it is anti-semitic: it hates America because America is the most oppressive superpower the world has ever seen. You also seem to forget that Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize along with the Israeli leader of the time, Shimon Peres. I hate you.
For those of you who read this whole thing, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. It's been a long and difficult journey, but we got there in the end.
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2004-11-09 06:01:47 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Dick
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-09 04:23:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
caula you are touchy. Quebec sucks. It has all the things that make france annoying, but none of the things that make it charming. It is a miserable place. I have not spend much time there at all thank God. I love Alberta though, great land and wonderful people.
Did you lose money in Bre X?
On a side note, Rob Schneider walked into the bar where I was tonight and got up and sang elvis with the house band. It was great. He is a better singer than actor.
Submitted by Slovin (user info) at 2004-11-09 00:00:41 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.sorryeverybody.com/gallery/1/
We're sorry...
Submitted by dingo (user info) at 2004-11-08 22:43:39 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Who really cares what the Euro-trash think. France and Germany need to take a long hard look in the mirror before they complain about any of our actions. Notice no one ask what the Americans think about the Europeans? Becuase the simple answer is--we don't. G'night.
Submitted by Gnome (user info) at 2004-11-08 18:02:06 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
terribly typical of an ingorant american. let me guess, you voted for bush.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 17:15:40 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
No smokey, you weren't joking. Stop trying to come off as a moderate when everybody knows you're an hardcore republican.
I like your stereotypes by the way. I mean, except for homelesses and dudes at the gym, which usually smell by standards, I rarely meet someone stinking here. This is north america, the hygiene is pretty much the same everywhere. Except that we use more water per citizens than anywhere else. Go figure. Maybe you've never been here after all. I've been to New York once and it fuckin' reeked. Of course I could have focused on the garbage smell but I prefered not to be an asshole tourist like you and visited the place instead, which was great.
And I'm sorry we don't have as much money as the english population in general. I guess that makes us detestable. Maybe I should hate the blacks near my neighborhood. Their so poor after all.
Submitted by Jesus_Loves_TwEE (user info) at 2004-11-08 17:14:00 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Wow!
Submitted by SwissCamel (user info) at 2004-11-08 17:13:34 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
You probably want to tone this down before you get double fucked by Europe and China.
Submitted by IamNotTheWorldTradeCenter (user info) at 2004-11-08 16:59:33 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
<slow day at work>
Before they say "Bush is a cowboy", "Bush is so vulgar", "He is a Phillistine", "The Americans are arrogant" they bitch about policies we persue. I can say that American NeoConservatives say that the "French are nazi-lovers" and make up a bunch of stuff I heard Al Franken say (if I were to listen to anything he said) as the rationale, I would fail to learn anything.
We haven't needed Europe for prolly a hundred years. What's changed recently is that *they don't need us* anymore. All those countries kissed our ass because they were afraid of the USSR. Now they aren't and so they aren't afraid to tell us we're vulgar coyboys.
p.s. maybe they wouldn't think we were arrogant if we didn't tell them how they believe.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 16:57:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Nobb I think you may understand now why they did not mind Clinton. He bowed to the U.N. for no reason.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 16:37:23 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Caula,
I do not think your lives are worth less, you are the one who wanted to start the war. I was joking about razing your province, it was prompted by your nuking NYC statment. I dislike people in Quebec not because they speak french, it has more to do with being smelly, second rate and generally loathsome and yet still somehow condescending to America, but that is just my anecdotal experience. When you are saying that someone needs to look at themself and point out areas that need improvement, you mean to say we should be able to critique ourself. Do not worry though, critic is misused by alot of people. And I was offering that not in a sarcastic way, but because you said you are here to learn English better.
Kristen,
Your alanis comment cracked me up, I am glad you are doing well and happy to read that your daughter is sleeping now.
I cannot remember who was saying I should ask some Europeans, and I have and the remarkable thing is how consistently they stay "on message" if you will. They repeat the same mantra's I hear again and again as I peruse Der Spiegel or Le Mon or the Guardian. "Bush is a cowboy", "Bush is so vulgar", "He is a Phillistine", "The Americans are arrogant". I think basically Bush and Kerry disagree on the improtance of Europe. Bush thinks that with the cold war over, Europe has mainly served to foment for social change to the left, while simutaneously continuing to go on with their colonial evil ways. It is the height of hypocrisy to condemn us for having the best healthcare in the world that does not provide universally, while at the same time denying millions within your country healthcare because they are not able to obtain citizenship. Further the blood for oil accusation makes me want to vomit because the blood is thickest on the hands of France, Russia and China, but the Netherlands has a pretty good share as well. Realizing the political reality that we do not need Europe for our strategic interest, that Britain by itself, coupled with "New Europe" is fine, is something Bush and his administration, recognize. That makes Europe mad. End of story.
Submitted by Nobb (user info) at 2004-11-08 16:32:52 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Holy shit, this is retarded. Why wouldn't they have disliked the US when Clinton was in?
Submitted by Herpes (user info) at 2004-11-08 16:18:37 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
You suck.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 16:17:52 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Donitsu - No shit buddy! Dude, it was only a metaphor. Everyone knows we couldn't possibly go at war with anyone, except maybe the Vatican with its medieval guards. I'm not even sure we could stop an Inuit uprising.
Kristen - You're right Kristen, your country ain't half bad. It's pretty good actually. :D
If it could only rid itself of extremists like smokey, who thinks people's lives are worth less for stupid reasons (such as not speaking english in my case), I'd like it even more!
Submitted by FuckBeans <FuckBeans.at.gmail.com> at 2004-11-08 16:05:42 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
One serious flaw in your argument is saying that the US commands more trade power than the EU. The EU has twice the buying power and twice the market place. If you want to know what kind of trade/economic power they have just ask the CEO of GE (General Electric).
GE chairman John Welch wanted to buyout Honeywell to create the single largest industrial consumer products corporation/merger ever. He was easily approved by a Bush-led U.S. Goverment (cause anti-trust and monopoly are a movie and a board game to Mr. Bush). Though what Mr. Welch overlooked was the EU's Anti-Trust Czar (European Union's competition commissioner) Mario Monti. Welch and GE went into the deal thinking because the US had approved the merger, the EU was a slam dunk, but the EU stopped the merger and because the EU is the largest market in the world GE had to nix the merger (after spending probably a quarter billion on lawyers, etc).
So go and tell me that the US pushes the EU around economically.
Submitted by IamNotTheWorldTradeCenter (user info) at 2004-11-08 16:05:26 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Everyone points out the fraud of the US becuase:
1. We have wayyyyyyyy more money to perform our frauds with, so they effect more people and are 'texas-sized' frauds if you will.
2. We are so muhfuking self-righteous. We're trotting around the world 'spreading freedom' with daisycutters. By doing so we implicity set a higher standard for ourself than the rest of the world. If we solely, oh yeah and Poland, are 'free' enough to try and franchise freedom across the world like it's a fastfood empire, then maybe the rest of the world would assume that we have our shit together.
P.S. - Smoky: If you really want to know why Europeans 'hate' us (I think they just disapprove of our policies the way lots of Americans do, but then some people say thay those Americans hate America) why don't you ask them? There just so happens to be TONS of europeans on here that I'm sure would be thrilled to educate you. Telling someone how they feel is cruising for a bruising.
Submitted by William_Q_Percy (user info) at 2004-11-08 16:04:32 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Canada is in no position to wage war with the states.
----
This is very true, but how many countries from the rest of the world would support our side of the cause?
Submitted by Donitsu2002 (user info) at 2004-11-08 15:57:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Caul, irregardless of my respect for canadians and my heritage traced back to the country..... Canada is in no position to wage war with the states.
Submitted by Kristen (user info) at 2004-11-08 15:46:49 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Ok, well, you're in a minority it seems. A lot of people are griping about the US and only the US. From my perspective, it seems like we get dumped on as a country all the time. At first it was like, "Gee, it sort of sucks that Canada and France keep dogging us..." and it's turned into wave after wave of anti-American sentiment...and as an American, I don't like it. Who would? So then I begin researching and realize, "Damn, every single country that hates us for being greedy/corrupt/evil has been doing the exact same things." Then it begins to feel like these countries are harping on us to keep the heat off of them.
And I would like to think the country that accepted my grandparents from the Philippines and provided them with every opportunity in the world, which resulted in the eventual birth of my mother which further down the line ended up being responsible for the spawn of myself ain't half bad. :o)
Anyway. That's my pity party for the day.
Submitted by Jack_McCallum (user info) at 2004-11-08 15:38:17 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Why Europe is angry with the U.S.
--
Why we don't give a fuck: Because when you are doing the right thing you don't sit in a fucking corner second-guessing yourself. And I guess that makes Kerry an honorary European.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 15:29:48 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
"Every single country is completely screwed up, dirty, and up to their eyeballs in scandals, but the only country people are condemning is the US."
FINALLY! I'm not condemning only the US. And believe it or not, I condemn anti-americanism when I see it here. Ask domenad what I think about my country or my province. What I can't stand is people, like our little freedom-loving nazi here who would gladly execute the 7 million people in my province, who are unable to critic their own country and rather point fingers at meaningless random nations such as France and whatnot. People like smokey who have persuaded themselves that their country is so fucking perfect that it can do whatever the fuck it wants.
Submitted by Kristen (user info) at 2004-11-08 15:19:03 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
That wasn't my logic whatsoever, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.
Every single country is completely screwed up, dirty, and up to their eyeballs in scandals, but the only country people are condemning is the US.
Look, we're responsible for a lot of tragedies: this war with Iraq, The Backstreet Boys, bologna...the list goes on. But unless and until the country you hail from has a clean slate, (and Canada has had the tainted blood scandal, Alanis Morisette, and mad cows, so you aren't faultless.) then you haven't got much room for thumbing your nose at us.
It is your right, though, just as it's mine to think you all are a tad hypocritical in doing so.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 15:08:16 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
"We would raze Quebec to the ground and let the good people of Alberta have the land."
Imagine if I said, we should nuke the US and use the land for good socialist europeans and canadians. You're a fucking nazi. End of story.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 15:04:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I think Caula perhaps even you can understand the difference between fraud that just occured and absolutely destroys the credibility of the current French governmental leadership as well as that of many high level players in the U.N. and fraud that is a historical fact of U.S. history like what we did to the Indians. If you are saying that some fraud makes all fraud okay, I guess you would say that it is cool and the gang if we kill Germans because after all they killed the jews. You are a moron. If by fraud you mean WMDs, you need to find a new argument because that one is beyond tired. We acted on the best intelligence we had, and given that the Iraqi military leadership thought they had WMD's it is no surprise we were misled. Being misled by bad intelligence is not a fraud, but trying to pass off what you are typing as an argument most certainly is.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 15:02:57 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Wow, smokey. I can tell you're a freedom loving man. I usually don't say that, but you're a fuckin' nazi.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 14:58:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I hope you are not proposing a war between canada and the U.S. We would raze Quebec to the ground and let the good people of Alberta have the land.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 14:55:23 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
So by Kristen's logic: Frauds = War?
That's cute. Now since the US is imposing an ILLEGAL tax on our softwood lumber I guess it would be OK for us to detonate a nuke in New York?
Submitted by Kristen (user info) at 2004-11-08 14:51:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 14:49:21 (#)
Ranking: 0
Surely, even in the US, you'll learn that the US isn't exactly a country of example in terms of frauds. Unless you're so naive that you think your country has never done such a thing. So again, what the fuck is the point?
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What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 14:49:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Surely, even in the US, you'll learn that the US isn't exactly a country of example in terms of frauds. Unless you're so naive that you think your country has never done such a thing. So again, what the fuck is the point?
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 14:40:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Surely even in Quebec you can find the information about the massive fraud that was undertaken by the French. Try doing research.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 14:33:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Everyone benifited from the Food For Oil programs. The US being the first.
What's the point?
Submitted by Kristen (user info) at 2004-11-08 14:26:05 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Teephphah (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:07:10 (#)
Ranking: 2
I think you understate the power of the EU, especially in light of what the Euro is currently doing against the dollar, but I think you make several great points.
The hypocrisy of the French is widely disregarded. The Food For Oil Scandal - concerning France's violations of U.N. sanctions against Iraq is somehow, STILL not showing up on anyone's radar, but yet that country is enjoying the benefits of some perceived moral high ground in terms of mid-east conflict. I don't get it.
Also, the selective omission of certain facts concerning the Israeli "invasion" of Lebanon should have been addressed. That particular offensive did not occur in a vacuum.
Gah. There is too much. Good post, as usual.
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Yes!
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 14:22:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
sorry the multiple posts in the same thread that add nothing to the dialogue and are poor attempts to mock others had me fooled.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 14:19:29 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
http://www.ubersite.com/m/50965#942566
You get a -2 for being unable to determine that this fake user is obviously not me, it's Fetish.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 13:15:52 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
So one reporter means the entire european media? Are you out of your mind?
You truly are the republican version of Michael Moore with your stupid conclusions and generalizations.
You're a worthless retard.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 13:09:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I am sorry your reading comprehension in English is still severely hampered, it had to do with the antisemitism that skews the media coverage throughout Europe. The Beeb is not even as bad as the Guardian and media outlets throughout old europe are worse. They all justify terrorism.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 13:04:27 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
What does this article have to do with anything you simplet? Oh right, Arafat is in Paris! Is that your point? Wow for your arguments little buddy!
Submitted by whataefag (user info) at 2004-11-08 13:02:48 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
you know, the Israelis poisoned Arafat.
Sorry, just thought I'd throw in some conspiracy theory shit that my favorite EUROPEAN webbloggers have been up to lately.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 12:58:23 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
caula you have not disagreed or offered arguments, just as usual your attempts at ad hominem.
Enjoy this article
BBC reporter cried for Arafat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Douglas Davis, THE JERUSALEM POST Nov. 7, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Senior editors at the BBC are understood to have remonstrated with their correspondent, Barbara Plett, over her "misjudgment" in revealing on air that she had cried when Yasser Arafat's Jordanian helicopter carried him away from Ramallah en route to hospital in France.
The BBC has received some 500 complaints about Plett's broadcast, which was broadcast on its Radio 4 program, "From Our Own Correspondent."
In her report, Plett said: "When the helicopter carrying the frail old man rose above his ruined compound, I started to cry . . . without warning."
She went on to reflect that, "in quieter moments since I have asked myself, why the sudden surge of emotion? I suppose there was a pathos about the strong contrast between this and other journeys Yasser Arafat has made."
In her report, entitled "Yasser Arafat's unrelenting journey," Plett noted that "foreign journalists seemed much more excited about Mr. Arafat's fate than anyone in Ramallah We hovered around the gate to his compound, swarming around the Palestinian officials who drove by, poking our microphones through their dark, half-open windows."
She lamented that amid all the media activity just a few hundred loyalists turned out to see him off from Ramallah, "waving and calling out one of his favorite sayings: 'The mountain cannot be shaken by the wind'."
Where were the people, she asked, "the mass demonstrations of solidarity, the frantic expressions of concern?" Then she answered her own question: "I think this history explains Palestinian emotions better than mine.
"For me, it was probably the siege. I remember well when the Israelis re-conquered the West Bank more than two years ago, how they drove their tanks and bulldozers into Mr. Arafat's headquarters, trapping him in a few rooms, and throwing a military curtain around Ramallah.
"I remember how Palestinians admired his refusal to flee under fire. They told me: 'Our leader is sharing our pain, we are all under the same siege'. And so was I. Maybe that gives me some connection to the man whose presidential compound became a prison.
"I know what it is like to stare at the same four walls and find them staring back; to watch tanks swing their turrets outside my window; to scan rooftops for snipers during brief hours of freedom between curfews. I could understand why Palestinians responded to Mr. Arafat then the way they did."
It is thought that such sentiments will fuel accusations that the BBC is incorrigibly pro-Palestinian, despite the October 2003 appointment - with support from Israel's Foreign Ministry - of an ombudsman to oversee its reporting of Middle East affairs.
The contract of the ombudsman, Malcolm Balen, was recently extended for a second year.
This is not Barbara Plett's first brush with controversy over her alleged bias in covering the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Three years ago, she was the subject of an Israeli embassy protest to the BBC over Palestinian celebrations following the 9/11 attacks. The then-press secretary D.J. Schneeweiss charged that Plett and her colleague, Orla Guerin, "went to great lengths to put the pictures 'in context' and insisted that the celebratory pictures did not reflect the sentiments of the majority of Palestinians."
"My question," he wrote, "is whether these blatant and apparently coordinated attempts to guide the British audience away from making its own judgments about the pictures on their screens did not derive from the BBC's correspondents bowing to Palestinian pressure.
"If this is not the case, then it would appear that we have an equally grave situation in which the BBC's correspondents willfully and of their own accord see themselves as champions of the Palestinian cause, mobilizing at a time of a [Palestinian public relations] crisis to limit the damage to the Palestinian image abroad."
Submitted by whataefag (user info) at 2004-11-08 12:56:57 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Good to see you back again!
You know, this post could've been boiled down to one word: arrogance.
THAT's the main reason Europeans hate us. Besides, looking at their economy vs. ours, one would think that they're the new superpower.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 12:34:32 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I doubt the US media or your patriotic daddy have ever criticized the position you hold. Quite the contrary. If you want good ratings, I suggest you go to http://www.fuckfrance.com Lots of news, freedom-loving republicans, french bashing and it's filled with simpletons from both sides of the fence. You'll like it there, I promise. Good bye.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:57:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
stop thinking, become a brainwashed liberal. It is interesting that caula calls me a lemming, but the media outlets I get information from, and the education I received all criticize/d the positions I hold.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:57:29 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
"Europe hates America is that we are in fact the only remaining superpower"
"nazi loving French"
"European nations also hate our success"
"America has spread freedom around the globe"
"They also have a media that hates the jews"
----
These lines alone are a testament that although you are well spoken, you truly have a child understanding of the world. You are incapable to put things into context and resort to simplistic "love/hate" and "us/them" conclusions.
Smokey Le Simplet.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:54:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Adam it is really nice discussing this with you, it is much more interesting than the "you are very wrong" or poorly worded insults I usually get from the left.
I wish we had gone after the opium. Truthfully the more I learn about when and how we attack coca fields in central and south america and what we are doing now in Afghanistan, it makes the conspiracy theory people talking about the CIA drugs connection start to sound very lucid. We probably agree on a good deal of things, including what America should do, we just I am almost certain disagree on the method of how to get there. I want to eradicate poverty, but I think throwing money at the problem is a solution that has proven ineffective and actually makes things worse in the long run. That is just one example, but anyway it is nice discussing this with you.
I think the Sudan has to become two separate countries. The truth is that the British ruled them as two separate countries and the northern arabic speakers will never allow democracy and the southern english speakers will never submit to Sharia (nor should they given that it denies them full citizenship and imposes religion on them). I hope the Sudan can become two countries, and I think the retribution would be limited after the photos of the death and destruction wrought by the U.S. military were shown. Surely the janjaweed would be slaughtered but that would be like the execution of Ted Bundy in America, something that many Americans including myself thought was just.
Submitted by Random Joe at 2004-11-08 11:53:54 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I think I think I think I think I think.
Stop thinking already - please.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:45:26 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
And the lemming spoke again...
Submitted by firefly (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:44:28 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
No Comment
Submitted by William_Q_Percy (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:43:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:09:41 (#)
Ranking: 0
The panthers have too too many people hurt. The good news is that I'm working on upgrading the PSL's to lower level. After this year, some of the bandwagon jumpers are going to be ready to jump back off.
---
I was really pissed at the loss yesterday. Does this mean I am being converted into a Panthers fan?
As for the rest of this post... I don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. I have too much studying to do!
Submitted by Nator (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:39:01 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
We don't hate you, we don't hate jews, there exists no ideological 'Europe', we consists of different countries. We choose, as a democracy, to implement things like euthanasia and abortion, we think they are socially acceptable things. Yes, we are different. Now drink your milk, burp and go to bed. Or watch 'THE GLOBAL MINUTE' so you to can become updated with EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED THAT DAY IN EUROPE!!!
God, when will you people learn.
Submitted by Adamdidit2u (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:36:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You bring up some interesting points. I think in Sudan if we brought 2 regiments of marines we would suffer very few casualties and effectively destroy their entire military. They are able to murder because the civilians have sticks to fight back with, but they have a military that is ill equipped and horribly trained. Also we could leave after we wiped them out, because unlike Iraq where the Kurds can only effectively police some area (the area that is not part of the "crisis" there according to the P.M.) the SPLA in Sudan could effectively control the areas in the center of the fighting and put down any insurgency.
===============================================
I agree with the ease of putting down an insurgency, but one of the biggest problems is the lack of govenment control over various forces in Sudan, military & police included, and the great influx of foriegn fighters. If the US were to sweep in and eliminate the mainstay of the military, the resulting vacumn would be a powder keg. Especially when you consider all those who want retribution for being displaced, raped, and harrassed throughout the years.
Afghanistan is an ignored success. They have democracy, they held elections, they are free, they are doing well. I hope they will be able to eradicate the opium trade themselves but right now they are training and growing stronger. And the Taliban is wiped out. If you do not believe that you are a fool. Their best and bravest thought they could win and they stood and fought and they were blown to a fine dust by our superior armaments. We killed an amazing number of people, we destroyed their strongholds, we marginalized or exterminated their leadership. We are not a foreign invader like the soviets, we are a liberator who allowed them to have open elections in which millions of them voted for the first time in their lives. It is unsurprising that the anti Bush media is ignoring the success in Afghanistan, because they do not want to see the country do well, as it validates what Bush has been saying, spread freedom and democracy and reap the benefits of peace
=================================================
While I do agree that Afganistan is for the most part a sucess, I don't agree with the policy on opium. The US has allowed it to stay (and lets just note that Afganistan IS THE LARGEST PRODUCER)because of the feared reprocussions. The warlords control the poppy's, and we didn't want to piss them off. Your talking about huge amounts of finacial assets being controlled by druglords. Ultimatley I think this will come back to bite us in the ass.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:23:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Loki, suffering through bad times makes the good times sweeter (I am talking about the panthers, not the next 4 GOP dominated years).
App, no one will attack Britain I think because it will move you further to the right. The U.K. is not a nation of cowards like the French and the Spanish, and an attack on your country would rouse the Winston Churchillesque fervor of the right and would see the ever rightward moving Tony Blair skyrocket in popularity, especially after his speech promising massive action against the terrorists.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:20:38 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Adam
You bring up some interesting points. I think in Sudan if we brought 2 regiments of marines we would suffer very few casualties and effectively destroy their entire military. They are able to murder because the civilians have sticks to fight back with, but they have a military that is ill equipped and horribly trained. Also we could leave after we wiped them out, because unlike Iraq where the Kurds can only effectively police some area (the area that is not part of the "crisis" there according to the P.M.) the SPLA in Sudan could effectively control the areas in the center of the fighting and put down any insurgency.
I also meant and thought I said military success. I do agree that planners probably thought it would be easier to win the hearts and minds of the people, but I think we underestimated the power of the propaganda on the other side (the arab media is as willing to lie as Saddam's famed information minister who became a joke with his outrageous press conferences) and we are facing the reality that the educated middle class that should be ready to embrace democracy and freedom is made up in large part by an ethnic minority that was given preferential treatment under Saddam and who sees that life will not be as easy if everything is divided fairly. Those are the key reasons I think Iraq is having trouble, although having a female general fail to supervise the idiotic guards at Abu Ghraib certainly did not help matters at all.
Afghanistan is an ignored success. They have democracy, they held elections, they are free, they are doing well. I hope they will be able to eradicate the opium trade themselves but right now they are training and growing stronger. And the Taliban is wiped out. If you do not believe that you are a fool. Their best and bravest thought they could win and they stood and fought and they were blown to a fine dust by our superior armaments. We killed an amazing number of people, we destroyed their strongholds, we marginalized or exterminated their leadership. We are not a foreign invader like the soviets, we are a liberator who allowed them to have open elections in which millions of them voted for the first time in their lives. It is unsurprising that the anti Bush media is ignoring the success in Afghanistan, because they do not want to see the country do well, as it validates what Bush has been saying, spread freedom and democracy and reap the benefits of peace.
Submitted by WTF? at 2004-11-08 11:19:25 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Shift the oil trade to the European market,
and then we'll see what a super power Les Etats Unis
is....or, more accurately, would no longer be.
Submitted by Adereterial (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:13:27 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
You cannot believe just how wrong you are.
Unfortunately I am working so I don't have time to do this right now...
Submitted by Adamdidit2u (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:10:41 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:03:00 (#)
Ranking: 2
I want someone to respond to this: Of almost every country in the Eurpean Union, a majority believe the EU should counterbalance the interests and influence of the US. When asked if they would support it if that meant a huge increase in military spending, support dropped 40%. 40%!!! The US is effectively providing covering fire for the entire world right now, people
======================================
Could it have anything to do with the fact that on a continent as ravged by war as theirs, they would rather pursue other routes? It was the belief that huge militaries could be used effectivley to garner influence and interests that led to the first two world wars.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:09:41 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Oh and let's not forget that there is a case going on right now about whether or not to teach evolution in Georgia. Exactly what the south needs, less education.
it's a theory like relativity, hell isn't gravity still a "theory"
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Inigo Montoya
The panthers have too too many people hurt. The good news is that I'm working on upgrading the PSL's to lower level. After this year, some of the bandwagon jumpers are going to be ready to jump back off.
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:09:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
No one is attacking Europe.
Britain may get it because of us helping you lot.
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2004-11-08 11:03:00 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I want someone to respond to this: Of almost every country in the Eurpean Union, a majority believe the EU should counterbalance the interests and influence of the US. When asked if they would support it if that meant a huge increase in military spending, support dropped 40%. 40%!!! The US is effectively providing covering fire for the entire world right now, people.
Submitted by Adamdidit2u (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:59:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:12:49 (#)
Ranking: 0
adam we are fighting in urban environments, and there is plenty of cover to frag our guys with RPGS unfortunately. I wish it were as simple as you make it out to be.
=============================
I should have elaborated my original thought.
The kind of warfare we are engaged in now was unexpected. I was refering to the initial invasion. Do you remember the telivised version of events showing our troops sweeping through Iraq with ease? Steath bombers casually eliminating underground command posts with our latest "bunker busters". I think alot of planners thought that we would either garner huge support from the liberated Iraqi's or that we would have gotten the fuck out of there much sooner. Consider if this kind of military action had been taken in Sudan. Dense jungle and complicated terrain, we would be suffering many more casualties. At least in Iraq, they can "contain" the fighting to isolated areas.
Submitted by Zandy1123 (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:46:39 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
you're wrong.
dead wrong.
Submitted by IamNotTheWorldTradeCenter (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:46:30 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
"Militarily we have prosecuted two staggeringly successful wars in the middle east from a historical perspective, wiping out armies on the other side "
First of all, to quote your buddy Dick, 'there's so many inaccuracies I don't know where to begin. But let's consider this quote. Wars are judged as success based on whether they achieve their objectives. So what were our objectives in Afghanistan? They were:
1. Most important, bring the people who carried out/planned 9-11 to justice. Remember, we asked the Taliban to give them up before we went in. We were there because the Taliban were harboring Terrorists.
2. Eliminate the Taliban, because they were a rogue state harboring Terrorists.
3. Bring democracy to Afghanistan so that the warlords/Taliban don't come back.
We did not 'wipe out' the vast majority of the Taliban. They put down their weapons, for now. They still hate us. They just know that in a few years we will leave, just like every other foreign invader in the last however many thousand years. Once we leave they will be back. The government has control of Kabul. The warlords control the rest, rich off of recordbreaking opium crops, and the warlords alleigance is up for grabs.
We will only be able to judge the success of 2 & 3 after we remove troops. 1 is obviously a failure.
As for the Iraq war. What were the objectives of the Iraq war? That's a good question, because the government seems to change its mind often. I guess that's becuase they need to find objectives based on reality. The initial reason, to secure the WMD away from Saddam, is a total failure. Either he magically made them disappear (we have satellites taking pictures of Iraq, the pentagon produced that picture outside the bunker where those explosives were, surely they would have noticed if huge stockpiles of weapons were moved to Syria), or they were never there in the first place. Either way, that objective is not satisfied. Next the reason was to rid the world of Saddam Hussein. This we achieved, but it's a very bad reason to spend hundreds of billions of dollars and put our boys in harms way. A consistent policy towards the entire world would have us invading all kinds of places. Finally, grasping for straws, we were speading democracy (is bombing residential areas the best way to spread freedom and democracy?). Again, this objective will only be achieved after we pull out our troops.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:42:19 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
one cheap geek
I can agree with your WWI and iraq comparision if only to point out that after WWI the United States did not gain anything in terms of cheap sources of foreign oil or colonial usurpation of mineral rights from defeated people so it is as inapt a charge about WWI as it is today.
Submitted by Fleadh <fleadh1.at.eircom.net> at 2004-11-08 10:41:59 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Utterly stupid from the get-go
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:40:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The wars I was talking about are the last two in Iraq.
Hairy,
Scroll down and read about the European Court of Human Rights. I oppose the EU for a number of reasons and I recognize that you have different governmental structures, however if you take the pulse of the EU as a whole, you would find that indeed socialist governments predominate. It would probably delight you if I was a provincial hick who hated "them Euro pee uns" but in fact I have worked in Europe for extended periods of my career and I have flown across from my country to that continent 20 times or so. My ancestors are Scandanavian and nothing makes me gag more than the "progressive" governments there that insist that paid vacations are a human right.
Submitted by JenBee (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:35:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
isn't this over yet? please?
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:35:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Assuming that the "two staggeringly successful wars" are the 2 world wars, one could think that we fared better than our allies becuase we were the late arrivals both times. Our interest in WWI was monetary (Germans sinking our ships and hurting our trade). I hardly think that gives us any moral high ground. We were attacked, bringing us into WWII.
From that standpoint, which reason applies to each or our current conflicts? I would say that WWII would parallel Afghanistan in purpose and justification. Iraq parallels WWI, since there was no attack and no impending threat, and a shitload of oil to gain.
Submitted by hairycoo (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:34:42 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
You're a fool.
There is way too much diversity within the 44 countries of Europe to speak of them politically and financially as a single entity.
I can't blame you for your tunnel vision though. The brainwashing techniques pushed into all aspects of your culture make it difficult for you not to have the 'Us' and 'Them' cold war style mentality. Even to this day, twats like you still have the opinion that we are all socialists. So Switzerland is the same as Sweden? Ireland is the same as Estonia? I payed 12% tax last financial year I must be in a fucking socialist country.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:30:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Granted, the Euro's have no right to hate us... but they have no reason to love us.
I think they have a reason to love us. We saved them from the madman of their creation, Adolf Hitler. A man who was the natural end result of years of eugenics being taught and held in esteem throughout Europe, along with the philosophy of Nietzche and his concept of the superman who is above moral law. America did not just rescue Europe by winning the war, we rebuilt Europe although we did not have to do so. If you ever visit Berlin, look at the efforts still ongoing to repair the eastern side, controlled by the soviets, versus the western side where we rebuilt it and gave the money to make it very nice. That is all within the lifetime of many in Europe. We also faced down the soviets and freed eastern europe. So yeah I think they have lots of reason to love us. They also can criticize us all they want, but we all know they are still drinking Coke and going to McDonalds and watching our movies more than their own.
Submitted by cleanfornow (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:24:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
The French, Germans, and Russians are also pissed because the illegal oil deals (by UN rules, haha) they had set-up with Saddam Hussein were voided by the US and UK. Bunch of hypocrites.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:24:28 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
loki, we are liberating people who really are suffering and cannot vote or drive. It sounds like you are engaging in the type of absurd hyperbole that marks the defeated and defeatist left. Ashcroft is not the Taliban, and opposing the murder or the unborn innocent does not mean that anyone wants to take away your right to do anything. Many libertarians support ending abortion, because unlike drug use or private consensual sexual activity, abortion involves the taking of a human life. Just think of it like this, I want to extend the right to live to the women who you dehumanize. The Nazi's dehumanized the jews, Margaret Sanger started Planned Parenthood and was a eugenicist who wanted to have less blacks, and the Democrats dehumanized the blacks in order to keep them as slaves. Sacrificing human life to convenience is not a feminist thing to do, it is an evil thing to do.
Other than that the Carolina Panthers started as my fantasy defense and really sucked it up. Oh and I won the office pool for the 72 hour team I helped with by coming closest to actually predicting the election results. Thank you evangelicals and Catholics. I met a guy with a hispanic last name who said he was not sure who he was going to vote for, and I saw a crucifix hanging in his garage with Jesus on it so I correctly assumed he was Catholic. I discussed with him my work in NYC on the partial birth abortion trial and my strong opposition to that, and we ended the conversation with his firm decision to back Bush. That kind of conversation happened again and again and again around the country and is why Bush increased his support so much amongst Catholics and Hispanic voters.
If Kerry had said he was against gay marriage that was judicially imposed but supported it state by state, if he had said he was against partial birth abortion and abortions after the fetus is viable unless the life of the mother is at stake (which combined are less than 1/10 of abortions) I think he could have won this election. But Kerry was against even waiting periods and requirements that women have ultrasounds. I met a woman who cried as she told me about her abortion and how the doctor told her it was a blob of tissue. When she was pregnant again 6 years later she saw her baby who was 3 weeks earlier in gestation than the one she had aborted on an ultrasound and she saw little fingers and toes and broke down crying because she realized she had been lied to. Kerry is not a moderate, he is a far left liberal, and that is why he lost.
Submitted by Donitsu2002 (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:19:45 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Also military sucess does not make it right. We don't belong over there, and we all know it.
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Obviously more than half of us dont.
Anyways, your post revolves almost completely on why Europe hates us. I dont think they hate us, i think it's more of a frustration. I voted for Bush, proudly too. You have to realize the worlds that separate us are more than just borders.
The Europeans live in a system where you can pretty much pass freely between countries, the US is a country that primarily stays to itself.
Granted, the Euro's have no right to hate us... but they have no reason to love us.
Submitted by shandythedog (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:17:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
its actually apollo's post btw
(i better at least say that or he will blow a gasket and i need him for some more coloring in work later)
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:12:49 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
adam we are fighting in urban environments, and there is plenty of cover to frag our guys with RPGS unfortunately. I wish it were as simple as you make it out to be.
Shandy or app whoever wrote that, I hope you check this post out, http://www.ubersite.com/m/32943
I think I know why they hate us. I also agree that artificial constructs of nations in areas of diverse tribal identities is a recipe for big trouble (that was the doing of colonial powers and it was a tragic miscalculation) but America could not be more different. You see Americans identify ourselves not by our etnicity by and large, or by our state, but rather by our national citizenship. It is that fact that makes this diverse land so very great and so very unified when we are threatened. We disagree a great deal, but we all love and cherish this land and our freedoms and we will fight to defend it against all challengers. That is why many of us are sick of America bashing (see my last post) and the hand wringing whinging (your spelling there) that I knew liberals would engage in when Bush won again. Having self loathing is sad.
Being humble is great, but refusing to allow our policies to be dictated by foreign governments is not arrogance. In fact China and Russia both do the very same thing (and to a lesser extent so do a LONG list of nations) and that is precisely whatever they think is best. They are more motivated by traditional self interest and that is why I am stunned that Europe decries America as some great evil. We give more away than any nation in the history of the world, and more private aid than Europe. We are more altruistic and our aid comes with no strings. Personally I think Europe should be paying more and we should be paying less governmentally, considering that many of the problems in places like Africa are the direct result of the colonial meddling of your forebears. Anyway the main thing that disgusts me about Europe is that Old Europe is so morally and culturally depraved and exists mainly as a negative force. It is like a group of food critics who cannot cook. What is Europe doing to defend Muslims? Nothing...they are abused throughout the continent (but especially in France) and when they were being massacred in another failed European created nation of Yugoslavia, you sat idly by as your neighbors butchered them. The U.S. had to step in. We also acted to defend muslims in Kuwait and now have liberated Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq. If you do not like what we are doing, do something yourself.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:09:49 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Europeans are mad at Americans because they are smart enough to see the direction the US is going when people like republican Jim DeMint who voted 100% of the time to cut funding for family planning and has advocated both the death penalty for abortion providers and called for banning unmarried women with children from being public school teachers.
So basically, if you are a teacher and get pregnant from rape, you can't get an abortion and you lose your job.
What is next?
women are no longer allowed to travel from their home unless they are escorted by a male relative
women cannot drive, vote, or work outside the home and must be covered from head to toe at all times
and silly me, I thought we were at war to protect my freedom
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2004-11-08 10:05:03 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
That should have read :
Your lack of comprehension is astounding for someone of your track record."""
Not sure where the stray 'even' came from.
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:54:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
did you even READ my post?
That is not what I am saying at all.
You lack of comprehension is astounding, even for someone with your track record.
I am asking people to ask themselves the REAL reasons why the arab world is so riled up.
Not your spoon fed reasons, think critically and laterally. Although I feel this may be beyond you.
Anyone who knows me on this site would not say I am anti-america or anti-any other country.
My whole point was the concept of the 'country' is flawed.
Submitted by shandy at 2004-11-08 09:52:32 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
all this is valid material for debate, and well enough expressed
but i had hoped apullo's post (of which i wsa the unseen architect)would prompt discussion on more general issues of nationalism and the 'us and them' mentality, demonisation of enemies, etc
Submitted by Adamdidit2u (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:49:59 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
European nations also hate our success. While their economies stagger on under the massive burden of socialism, ours continues forward despite some of the trappings of their failed economic system that was foisted upon us by FDR. Militarily we have prosecuted two staggeringly successful wars in the middle east from a historical perspective, wiping out armies on the other side with such a small loss of life comparitively that the media is left attempting to explain why 1 in every 150 soldiers deployed dying is somehow on par with military failures like Vietnam.
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First of all. If the two world wars would not have happened, Europe would be the premire industrial complex. But having two MAJOR wars which basically wipes out huge demographics of your population, destroys all your major cities and heavy industry and forces you to live in variuos stages of occupation sets you back a bit. If you consider the state of affairs there now, and add what was lost, it's safe to say we wouldn't be so high and mighty. Not to mention the huge economic boom the US felt during the wars. Almost all of our heavy industry was created then, especially some key sectors.
As for two "staggeringly sucessful wars". Thats because A.)We are the greatest military power EVER. B.) We are fighting against a military that uses VERY oudated equipment and tactics.(Their tanks can't even penetrate the armor of an A1A) C.) It's a desert war. Convienent yes. Vietnam was a disaster because of the cover the jungle offered. BUt in the desert there is no hiding, and no tunnels either.
Also military sucess does not make it right. We don't belong over there, and we all know it.
Submitted by Thored (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:38:24 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Europe hates the united states because they are jealous?
Yes, thats it. The europian nations are jealous of war, and hard times in the USA. I don't think Europe hates the USA, they just don't like aspects of it. The only country that hates the USA is France and who cares? It's the French!
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:32:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
centralised currency?
I do not suppose you know much about the EU or the Parliament of Europe then? The fact is that the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg (where I have worked) is the only international court that actually has real enforcement power over its member nations. That means that you have a central judicial system that overrules your national government. I wouldnt expect a punter like you to know that as you are probably spending most of the year in pubs watching football and drinking until you piss yourself.
Submitted by Stin (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:32:43 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I think you are seriously misguided.
Submitted by smokymtcsw (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:30:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I was referring to the vichy government and also the deep seeded antisemitism that has been prevalent in France throughout much of its history. I think that while not everyone in France loved the Nazis (I am a fan of the French Resistance which saw some ingenious attacks in defense of home) so many did that the Nazis had little troubling ruling a large neighbor. Emil Goldhagen's outstanding book, "Hitler's Willing Executioners" delves into this topic a bit, and there is a great deal of other outstanding scholarship out there.
As far as America somehow being in Iraq for oil, if you are really that stupid perhaps there is no hope and I should not attempt to convince you. Oil prices have gone up to record highs, America is losing economically. While Halliburton has convinced me that the Republicans have pushed through a great deal of horrific pork for their friends that looks like Trent Lott building boats no one needs down in Mississippi, overall America is acting against our economic interest by being in Iraq. The entire argument is stupid as well because Saudi Arabia and Kuwait could not have opposed us militarily back in 1991 if we had wanted to make the 51st state, oilland, and while the rest of the world could moan a great deal, if we gave part of it to China and Russia (along with the Sudan where they are as complicit as the french in the atrocities) no one else would have been able to stop us. The bottom line is that the only reason to be there is because Bush really does believe in spreading democracy and freedom and that freedom is the only thing that will lift the middle east from its war and hatred.
The truth is that jihadists operate out of anger, and mainly despair. They recruit men for whom the promise of 72 virgins and a heroic death seems attractive because life has no joy. Free countries where people can pursue jobs that satisfy them, spend their money on trinkets and toys that delight them etc. will have a great deal less anger and despair and will leave Bin Laden in the business of creating misery in order to seek to recruit new soldiers.
Submitted by Phallic_Cymbals (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:22:08 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
K this was all shit but we'll split the work of dismembering it between whoever can be bothered.
"They prostituted the very soul of their national identity and they are still a second rate player in trade negotiations etc to the might Estates Unis"
You fuckin idiot- centralised currency is NOT national identity. If the US started using the Yen i doubt you'd all be Japanese clones... except for you, who likes to follow trends.
Assjester.
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:08:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
An interesting viewpoint that's worth reading. One question, though - since when do the French love Nazis? They were occupied and oppressed by the Nazis during WWII, during which time a large resistance movement developed. Just because a country does not have enough military might to successfully resist a conquering force, does not mean that country "loves" said conquering force.
Submitted by BLITZKREIG_BOB (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:08:17 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Looks like you hit a nerve here.
Submitted by Teephphah (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:08:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Oh, and how about France decimating the ENTIRE Air Force of the Ivory Coast over the weekend? How sensative was that?
Submitted by Teephphah (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:07:10 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I think you understate the power of the EU, especially in light of what the Euro is currently doing against the dollar, but I think you make several great points.
The hypocrisy of the French is widely disregarded. The Food For Oil Scandal - concerning France's violations of U.N. sanctions against Iraq is somehow, STILL not showing up on anyone's radar, but yet that country is enjoying the benefits of some perceived moral high ground in terms of mid-east conflict. I don't get it.
Also, the selective omission of certain facts concerning the Israeli "invasion" of Lebanon should have been addressed. That particular offensive did not occur in a vacuum.
Gah. There is too much. Good post, as usual.
Submitted by JohnnyACDC (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:05:22 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
wow yes....spreading freedom...i guess the new definition of "spreading freedom" is making the securing of the oil in Iraq the AMerican governments first priority upon invasion. Did you know that your government is paying its oil dwellers more than twice what it pays its soldiers...or your "freedom fighters"? There is no freedom, you are being run by the people who would see Iraq smoldering in the ground to capitalize on the big business opportunities. Congratulations, you have written the dumbest most ill-informed post of the day, and thats including the post by that cocaine guy.
Submitted by polyamorousaj (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:03:58 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Been wondering where you've been.
Submitted by funk_boy (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:01:47 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I can't even begin to be arsed
Submitted by SilverGinger5 (user info) at 2004-11-08 09:00:12 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
no