An atheist talking about religion and mentioning George Bush? Burn him!!!! (1284 hits)
Category: PoliticsLabels: these_actually_mean_something_to_me
Rating: 1.78 on 38 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by Darko (View user info) at 2005-02-22 20:25:41 EST
I usually don't believe in a higher power, and I am 100% sure that the christian-judeo-islamic God does not exist. That's not to say there is no God, but that the god that exists is not the same one they write about.
Back on topic though. There are times where I waver in my belief of the lack of a god. And it's due to my interaction with certain people. A couple examples would be Cathy and Rachel. There's just some type of an aura some people give off that leads one to think that there has to be something more. Not that they are right, and not that they are so strong in their beliefs. After all plenty of "religious" people believe what they say. But on how they influence others without even trying. A single conversation from these types of people can make my day or alter my mood into one of happiness and tranquility.
I don't believe these people are this way because of their religions; rather they are religious because this is how they are. On these days I believe some higher power has designated certain people to be soothers. To let ordinary people know that things will turn out alright and that it is ok for us to be happy. The fact that they are of certain religions is just so that they will be accessible to a wider variety of people. I think if there were no religions, these people would be the same; not in their beliefs, but how they made people feel.
There are many people who pretend to be like these "soothers". George Bush is one of them. This isn't to say he's misrepresenting the higher power's will, rather that he believes that some higher power created him with the purpose to bring comfort to others. The mere fact that he doesn't do this for a large part of the population is indicative that he is mistaken, but he visualizes that it's his duty to mold the world into one where he is seen as such a person. Then again there is nothing wrong with trying to be like one of these people. In fact it might be quite admirable to try to bring serenity to others, to let them know everything is ok.
There are days which everyone just believes that there must be more to life. Even the most steadfast atheists have these feelings. And the question is are these feelings of delusional hope or of enlightenment. But I don't think that even matters. Whether you believe in a higher up or not is inconsequential, this higher power just wants to help us feel at ease.
It's these soothers though which most influence me. Not by their beliefs, not by what they say, but just on how they are. The fact that just a simple interaction with these people can affect me so much. The fact that I can just sit back and watch as other people feel the same calmness I feel when they interact with them.
The proof of god is not in any book, or widely held belief. I meet plenty of people who consider themselves deeply religious, and I always ask them one thing. If your society and family was not aware of any higher power, would you be? That is if the bible was never written, if there was no bible, no Koran, no monks declaring Buddha's wisdom. And the fact is most of these religious people wouldn't believe in any higher power, which is why they are religious in the first place. They believe what they are told and hear, thus why they take their religion so seriously. People have their religious beliefs for all of the wrong reasons. They feel the need to have some meaning in their life's, the need to have the responsibility out of their hands, for somebody else to have a plan for them. I have no need for this.
The part I find shocking is I know if it weren't for people constantly promoting their religious beliefs, I would be spiritual. If I weren't aware that so many people would spread their lies, I would believe in something similar to what I call them liars for believing. And while I have no desire for the security of knowing that their is more to life, I feel it regardless when I meet these soothers. It's not easy to tell everyone they are being irrational when you have some similar feelings that they have. But so many people just have it for the wrong reasons. Then again my lack of belief is also for all of the wrong reasons.
I just find myself shouting at all these people that they don't deserve the peace they feel at night. They don't deserve the feeling that everything will turn out alright. It is similar to a person who "knows" their sports team will win, and then they get lucky that they are right. This God they speak of is one who is warped to resemble their own feelings towards people. He is fierce and unloving at times. This is not the person I believe when I find myself believing in anything at all. These people warp the feelings they get when they meet a soother into something which will further their own lives, needing more than the simple truth, that everything is ok and we can be happy for we are loved.
Not knowing something is not a good reason to believe in a higher power. Wanting someone to have control of your life is not a good reason to believe in a higher power. A desire to fit in with your friends and family is not a good reason to believe in God. There is only one reason that people should believe in any higher power, and that is feeling the presence of a higher power. I believe that these soothers have the ability to help other people feel this wave of tranquility.
Because of my interactions with these people, I'm willing to give up my atheistic ways. Not to fit in, but because I know there is more to life. I know that it will all be alright. But I'm still saddened by all these religious people who have no reason to believe other than it's what their parents and friends were told. So many people are religious for the wrong reason, but I just can't let myself deny what I know is true for them anymore. I only hope more people will meet someone who lets them experience the calm of mind I have.
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Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2006-05-02 21:57:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
If your society and family was not aware of any higher power, would you be?
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I don't know. But someone was. Before the Bible, someone heard God's voice. Before there was a word for "faith" someone believed. Before there were ten laws, etched on stone, there was His Law, the divine Law of God. It exists, whether we acknowledge or not. It does not exist because I believe it exists. It stands, resolute, in the face of the faithful and the faithless.
I am a poor Christian, perhaps, but I will pray you find Him. He's never farther than looking.
Submitted by georgemichael (user info) at 2006-05-02 21:47:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
If your society and family was not aware of any higher power, would you be? That is if the bible was never written, if there was no bible, no Koran, no monks declaring Buddha's wisdom.
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I have a religious friend who refuses to answer this question....
I have put it to him like this - if you were born hindu woud you convert to christianity since you claim to KNOW it is the one true religion and he will not answer
Submitted by podium (user info) at 2005-03-23 17:46:41 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by d_prime (user info) at 2005-03-11 19:44:12 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
I'm an athiest, btw.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2005-03-07 23:51:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
actually, we've just went over most of those arguments in my philosophy of religion class. I reccomend anyone who actually cares about what they do and do not believe in to take a similar course.
Submitted by pen_name (user info) at 2005-03-07 23:35:17 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/humftp/E-text/Russell/why.htm
i'm a catholic, and still believe in god and all, but this guy makes some nifty points.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2005-03-01 03:03:03 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
That Chernobyl punchline was classic. I gotta go give you a +2 for that.
Submitted by FelizJbirth (user info) at 2005-02-28 11:54:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I have a friend of mine who can light up a room just by walking into it
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Me too, but then again, he's from Chernobyl. (Sorry, I couldn't resist)
Submitted by Jungle_Jimanee (user info) at 2005-02-28 11:45:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
You have provoked some good thoughts, here is my 50 cents:
These soothers you speak of, if you "imagine" that all people are energy (it's true) through which energy moves and reaches other people and that it is all under the controle of the subconcious.
You would find that people at peace with the universe radiate a calming influence and that people like "Chris Evans" and "Fat Tony" make people ill.
I have a friend of mine who can light up a room just by walking into it
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2005-02-24 02:47:23 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I haven't been able to sleep since I wrote this.
I think it's either that I am onto something and need to go more in depth or I have some huuge flaw here.
Grrrrr.
Submitted by FelizJbirth (user info) at 2005-02-23 14:14:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Some people would argue that that power is proof of God, but I disagree. It seems to be more of a an intrinsic, biological reward for 1. joining a group of positive minded people, 2. directing your life toward positive ends, 3. embracing accepted morality. I believe these forces are (primarily) what constitute the "Godsend" that people call faith.
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You're right, that's largely where spirituality comes from; a feeling of being a part of something which gives you a sense of security about your "self" (as opposed to just yourself) in addition to giving you confidence and your own strong sense of morality.
My question is, why is that people seem to think this is something that can only be achieved through faith in something other than themselves?
Perhaps it is because North American society, largely due to the reality of the marketplace, does not generally provide people with either a community of positive minded people, it does not encourage people to direct their life towards positive ends or embrace any kind of accepted morality. One has to seek these things out and religion has already done all the work for you. You can go to church and have a social life with people who share your sense of morality and usually direct their energy into positive things. I'm not talking about the Pat Robertsons of the world obviously, I'm talking about your average, decent religious American. I may disagree with people who have faith, but I don't question that there are many good people who ARE often bettered in some way by having faith. I am not an athiest who berades religious people for their beliefs. I'll admit that I can get into heated discussions about it occasionally, but I would never purposely belittle someone for their faith. If a person has good intentions, I have "faith" that they're doing what they think is best and if I can persuade them that maybe they're looking at things in the wrong light, or vice versa, all the better. We're all students when it comes to life. I think too many religious people make the assumption that atheists, because they don't believe in God, have some kind of hidden hatred for religious people. It's just hatred, it's just frustration. Probably very similar to what you feel about us. Of course, there are wackos on all sides, so I can only speak for myself and the people that I know.
That being said, my LACK of belief in a higher power has allowed me to find a community of positive minded people, to direct my life towards positive ends (after all, I'm on Ubersite!) and to be a moral person. The lack of a higher power would not be justification for any nice person to spend the rest of their lives seeking pleasure at the cost of others, although there are such animals roaming the planet. I guess I'm saying that I think it's unfair to suggest that these things cannot be achieved without having faith in something which is, after all, ultimately unknowable.
Submitted by InkyFingers (user info) at 2005-02-23 13:14:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Something to consider is "Power of God Vs. Power of Faith". I believe in higher powers, but not the Christian God. Faith is, I believe, a higher power, and people capable of experienceing faith seem to be better off than those who are incapable of said experience. (Also read, I am talking about experienceing Christian Faith in this instance). People who are caught up in faith emminate an undeniable strength and that must be respected.
Some people would argue that that power is proof of God, but I disagree. It seems to be more of a an intrinsic, biological reward for 1. joining a group of positive minded people, 2. directing your life toward positive ends, 3. embracing accepted morality. I believe these forces are (primarily) what constitute the "Godsend" that people call faith.
Submitted by Wazza (user info) at 2005-02-23 12:23:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
No comment .
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2005-02-23 05:25:59 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I've purposely not brought the afterlife into this post because eternal death as opposed to eternal life very well may be the clamness of realization that I recieve. What comes after life is a mystery, I'm just saying here that there is something more to life, not neccesarily more after life.
Submitted by FelizJbirth (user info) at 2005-02-23 05:08:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Darko, there's certainly nothing wrong with having an open mind - I still say that a feeling is a feeling no matter how important anyone thinks they are.
I look at it this way. If a Christian honestly believes they're going to Heaven when they die then they probably have a feeling of peace similar to what you're describing. What if you don't believe in Heaven or Hell? Well, as an atheist, I have neither the pearly gates or the eternal fire of Hell to even think about. There is a certain peace that comes with that. Somehow coming to the realization that when you die, it's really, truly over, should be a "religious" enough experience for anyone. I don't mind not existing for the rest of eternity, that sounds pretty good to me. I might not have 72 virgins, but at least I'll finally get some fucking sleep.
Submitted by Feijuada (user info) at 2005-02-23 05:03:38 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Cthulu is the only true god and he will devour you all.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2005-02-23 04:27:38 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
FelizJbirth I agree with you, religion is used as a crutch for people. And so many people blindly follow without a faith in their religion, but rather a faith that their friends and family are right. And this is one of the reasons I for quite a few years was so anti-religious. But the fact that there are so many religious nuts isn't a good enough reason for me anymore to say that they can't be right about anything they say. As for how I am feeling at the time, I don't feel sad, or happy, or desperate. Just out of nowhere I feel calmed and at piece. And it's not as if I even ask to feel this way or even want to, I just do. As you can imagine this brings great conflict to the non-religious type. It'd be just as easy for me to say these feelings are unrelated to any higher power, but then I would be sticking to my materialism the same way the religious blindly stick to their beliefs without merit. But I won't let my disdain for the religious and religion blind me to my truth the same way they blind themselves to why they believe.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-02-23 04:26:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I read somewhere that 51% of american voters would not vote for an athiest for president.
I wonder who they are.
Submitted by FelizJbirth (user info) at 2005-02-23 04:11:06 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
For most thinking people, spirituality is an emotional crutch. The concept of God is little more than an externalization of, as Loki pointed out, your emotions resulting from finding patterns where patterns do not exist. Does God work in mysterious ways or do mysterious things just happen all the time?
I know it's all very personal to people and many of you think the same thing about people with beliefs such as myself. That being said, I PLEAD with anyone who believes in a "higher power" to just really, truly question the emotions behind their faith. Ask yourself, are you experiencing a spiritual encounter with a higher power or are you just really sad/high/happy/any possible emotion? I think John Lennon summed it up pretty good with "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."
The whole concept of God as the all-powerful protector applies to the political arena as well, perhaps moreso now than ever. Try convincing a Christian that God doesn't exist, then try convincing a Republican that Bush actually gives two shits about them as a person, compare the two experiences and I bet my left testicle the results are very similar. Emotional justification of delusion in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
What God wants, God gets God help us all.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2005-02-23 04:07:28 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2005-02-23 03:48:41 (#)
Ranking: 2
"HOLY" shit, this didn't suck!
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Honestly, I'm just as shocked as you are. This was one of those htings you write when you just need to get it out of you, to get your ideas down before they leave you, and I just wanted to share my thoughts I didn't read it over. Then after a few reviews I read it and was fairly surprised.
Submitted by Ivy (user info) at 2005-02-23 03:55:24 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I have spent many stoned days by myself questioning spirituality and searching for my beliefs. I do believe in God, but my God is not the one in the books. Yes, I am Christian, but I find there to be quite a few discrepencies in the Bible. But I see God in so many things, conincidences, things you do not understand at the time, but further down the road it all becomes clear and then you understand that phrase, "God works in mysterious ways." Beautfiul sunsets, this incredible planet. My gran is extremely religious, my mom isn't, my dad's buhddist (sp?). It's interesting you would talk about the soothers. My granny goes into tongues sometimes and actually makes people pass out. She told my sister that she and my cousin Trinity are here to help people, that they are actually part of the few people put on this earth by God to bring people comfort. I guess they would be the soothers you talk about.
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2005-02-23 03:48:41 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
"HOLY" shit, this didn't suck!
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2005-02-23 01:06:25 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Look at it this way, if the whole world was on mushrooms it's be the sober people who would be considered to be the madmen.
Submitted by FelizJbirth (user info) at 2005-02-23 00:57:39 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2005-02-23 00:27:50 (#)
Ranking: 0
I'll believe you this time, but come back sometime when you do get high, i'd be quite interested to see your thoughts then
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The funny part is I am high on mushrooms right now (hey, it's my night off and I had ten bucks to spare, don't judge me you pigfuckers!).. I was about an hour in when I came across your post so my review down below, for what it's worth, is coming from the fingers of a poisoned, hallucinating madman. You know, like those guys that wrote the Bible.
"Oinos" my ass.
Submitted by Sassmasterr (user info) at 2005-02-23 00:34:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
back in my day, i was religious but didn't go flaunting it around. i'd never talk about it unless someone directly asked me about it. whatever, to each his own.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2005-02-23 00:27:50 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I'll believe you this time, but come back sometime when you do get high, i'd be quite interested to see your thoughts then
Submitted by Ranx05 (user info) at 2005-02-23 00:20:48 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
""if i just spent ten minutes laying out my thoughts better, this would be so much less coherent." "
Jesus Christ monkeyballs. "MORE coherent."
I illustrated my own point implicitly.
But if I hadn't said it explicitly, I wouldn't have had the opportunity put it forth implicitly.
Would you believe I didn't even get high tonight?
Submitted by Ranx05 (user info) at 2005-02-23 00:14:43 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Wow...I'm impressed with your ambivalence, for lack of a more (immediately available) positive term. Aside from your point about people [who believe what they do simply because they've been told] not deserving the peace they gain from it, I find your point of view quite compelling. Just because these people believe for the wrong reasons doesn't necessarily mean that their peace of mind is ill-gotten...or even if it is, does it really matter as long as they're at peace?
Also, even if, aside from any outside influence, one gains a concept of a higher power, I am of the opinion that one should still question oneself about this feeling, to the end that one discern the positive feelings one gains from the "soothers" you mention as indications of supernatural phenomena from the feelings these people are able to convey. Forgive me, I'm overusing the word "one" and am using hopelessly run-on sentences...what I mean to say is, the "soothers" can alter your perspective on life the universe and everything in a positive manner but one isn't necessarily obliged to interpret that as evidence for the existence of a benevolent higher power. Whether one wants to or not is another story, and whether it's warranted, I feel, is a personal decision.
As is de rigeur for me, a very provocative post (in my view) has led me to post a reply that 1) hasn't addressed everything I've wanted it to, 2) has incited me to use a lot of verbiage for lack of being able to express myself more succinctly, and 3) i forget.
Wow...I've read over my comment and thought to myself, "if i just spent ten minutes laying out my thoughts better, this would be so much less coherent."
However, it was much easier to say that than to actually do it. Please forgive my laziness, I hope my comments are insightful.
Submitted by FelizJbirth (user info) at 2005-02-22 23:44:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2005-02-22 23:00:50 (#)
Ranking: 2
I think religion comes from the fact that the human brain in hard wired to recognize patterns, even if no pattern exists. Essentially, we fear random.
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So true it hurts. I gotta tell ya, those are two beautiful sentences Loki.
Come on religious folk, you have nothing to fear! Well, except Hell of course. Look on the bright side, it'll only feel like an eternity!
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2005-02-22 23:00:50 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I think religion comes from the fact that the human brain in hard wired to recognize patterns, even if no pattern exists. Essentially, we fear random. There are evolutionary reasons for this. The ability to recognize patterns allowed our distant ancestors to find food thus increasing their chances of procreation.
we are, all of us, decedents of history's winners
That would be religion in its true form. I also think that a rather large element of "religion" has to do with keeping the masses in check. Religion gives us a framework of socially acceptable behavior without having to rely on a police state to ensure peace. Not that I think that all people are incapable of acting altruistically, but let's face it, the very notion of "sin" is a rather powerful deterrent.
That being said, I am terrified of the way W throws around his religion as though he is leading an army behind the Ark of the Covenant. I also think it's a pathetic commentary that it seems to work for him.
Submitted by Wiggles (user info) at 2005-02-22 22:37:00 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I don't really agree with a lot of what you said, but to each his own.
I'm 99% sure that there is no God, so I call myself an agnostic.
But I'm 100% certain that if there IS a god, he/she is either A) Not omnipotent, or B) Mostly malevolent.
Submitted by Teephphah (user info) at 2005-02-22 22:35:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Well, I'll say that it seemed sincere, and that I wished that I felt as "soothing" as Dome after reading it.
A more detailed examination of your unfounded statements and logical circles might get a little ugly though.
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2005-02-22 22:23:12 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
God believes in you. So do I.
Submitted by FelizJbirth (user info) at 2005-02-22 22:09:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Very well written. As an athiest, I can relate to much of it. However, as I'm sure you know very well, anything you FEEL is an emotion. Nothing more, nothing less. These days it's hard not to "feel" something in the air and I can understand how some might look at it as some kind of higher power at work but I would be careful. These strange things happen all the time!
Submitted by Delora (user info) at 2005-02-22 22:02:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
This was about someone's opinion on religion and I actually read it all. Not that I don't respect any person's right to believe in whatever, whenever. I've just never had any reason to feel strongly one way or another about most religions. I guess that makes me an obvious "agnostic" if I have a title. Shrug. +2 for open minds!
Submitted by G-prime (user info) at 2005-02-22 21:58:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
My encounter with a religious nutcase: http://www.ubersite.com/m/59925
Submitted by ChronicMasturbator (user info) at 2005-02-22 21:40:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I respect your opinion.
I would recommend really studying each religion at it's core, not the people.
Hell, If I was European, I would not look at Bush or Rednecks as an example as Americans, but rather I would look at your constitution. My analogy might be weak, but I hope you understand.
I am a Muslim, but I am not the kind of person who goes out and preaches. I believe in what I believe, and if someone wants to talk to me about it, I will. I will not invoke a conversation.
Do not believe because "they" do. I recommend that you travel to a church, mosque, temple anything. The moment the guy over there starts talking about other religions, go to another person from that religion. If you want to believe in religion, arrive at your own truth.
I arrived at my own truth and I am glad.
Submitted by TheSpook (user info) at 2005-02-22 20:32:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
"if it weren't for people constantly promoting their religious beliefs, I would be spiritual"
I find this describes me. So many people promoting their agenda, I don't buy that stuff. Hell, I don't even tolerate it.
On Bush: Hitler had righteous intentions too.