The Wonders of Democracy (637 hits)
Category: PoliticsRating: 1.25 on 23 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by JACK0173 (View user info) at 2005-06-22 01:45:08 EDT
Note: I am NOT jack11058, please refrain from +2ing this without reading it, Rad, them coming back to -2 it later when you have read it and want to join the bandwagon.
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Note also: this post concerns all politics but the parties I refer to are Australian; Liberal Party = conservative, right-wing, John Howard; Labor Party = supposedly left-wing worker's party, in reality slightly-less-right-wing conservative party.
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Ever since it emerged from Athens, democracy has been lauded by Western society. We look down upon nations that lack it. Corrupt politicians start wars to defend and export it. We revel in the joy of being able to have a say in how our country, and consequently our lives, are governed.
But maybe, just maybe, democracy isn't quite as fantastic as we have fooled ourselves into believing.
One of the cardinal pillars in the invincible edifice of democracy is the ability of the people to choose the government of the day. Do we the people really have all that much say in the matter though?
It seems to me that there really isn't a choice. In the state I live in (South Australia) the only reason the government is in power is because they are less incompetent than the opposition. It's not that anyone really likes them all that much (no one I've ever heard of likes them, anyway), they just trust them to do a marginally better job than the opposition would.
This is the whole premise of the Liberal Party being in power in the federal government. No one in their right mind, as much as they may have wanted to, could have voted for Latham's Labor Party. (Although, of course, they didn't have to vote Liberal, but I shall get to this point in due course).
The whole system is dominated by two parties, effectively cutting out any real choice. This seems to be the case in at least the USA and Britain too (and probably every other Western nation, but feel free to correct me, I really don't know). Whether we like it or not one of the two major parties will be in power (this is partly due to the stupidity of voters, I'm getting to that point). These parties get all the donations, have all the money, all the electoral clout and are very well established. Never mind the fact that Labor and Liberal and virtually identical, they are all we have to choose between. Smaller parties have a hard time getting by and most independents get themselves known by formerly being a member of one of the major parties. The chances of me getting elected should I choose to run for parliament are non-existent.
The other great facet of democracy that gives us all such joy that everyone gets to vote. Whilst no doubt well intentioned, this doesn't really work.
People are too stupid to vote. It's as simple as that. Many people I know of vote for whoever their parents tell them to (I'm reasonably youngish). This is especially true of the conservative voters, they do whatever they're told. They don't understand what they're voting for, just that their parents/priest/Murdoch-owned-media-source told them to, so it must be right, right?
Other people have no idea and just vote for whatever looks best, a name they can remember, I don't know, whatever goes through their heads (which probably isn't much).
This is one reason the major parties have such a stranglehold, people know them and so will vote for one of them. Until people start to educate themselves they will just blindly continue to vote either Labor or Liberal based on what their friends and family tell them to do.
"Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few." - George Bernard Shaw
People should have to pass some sort of test before they get to vote, one that makes sure they understand what they will be voting for and the alternatives. This brings me to another point: compulsory voting. I know this isn't the case in the USA but in Australia we have compulsory voting. This should be abolished for two reasons: (a) democracy is supposedly about choice, why can't we choose whether or not to vote? (b) the stupid people who really don't care wouldn't have to vote at all and so wouldn't mess it up for everyone else.
"Politicians are ruled more by compromise than by their own ambition. They spend endless hours dealing with committees and reviews, their hopes and fears dominated by an overwhelming desire to be liked. Democracy is the art of achieving nothing by doing a lot." - Andre De Guillaume
This, ultimately, seems to be leading towards a pro-dictatorship post, so, despite its flaws, maybe democracy is not so bad after all.
User Reviews
Submitted by jack0173 (user info) at 2005-06-23 01:12:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2005-06-23 01:00:52 (#)
Ranking: 2
Personally, I think non-compulsory voting doesn't solve the problem, because sometimes (I think we can write off Bush's second victory to this) people who don't know what they're doing still really want to vote.
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Very, very true. It often seems to me that people who are completely wrong are often the ones who are absolutely convinced that they are right (Sudden thought! - other people probably think I'm one of these people!)
A small questionnaire on the major policies of the party would go a long way to improving this form of democracy I think. Obviously, the questions and answers would have to be so heavily scrutinised by the parties and Parliament beforehand that anybody at all concerned would have no trouble passing, and that's the whole idea.
But that does raise the issue of self-interest - if you're a member of some sort of group which would stand to benefit or lose directly from one party gaining power, should you be able to vote solely on that aspect without having any idea about other policy platforms?
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True, and I guess one of the ideals of democracy is freedom, you should be able to vote based on whatever premises you wish - educated or not.
There really is no easy solution to the problems we face, although my Classical Studies teacher last year suggested something which I think may go a long way in the right direction: whenever a new baby is born, the parents must past a test (comprising a general knowledge of history, politics, whatever else people need to be constructive members of society). Should they fail, the baby is clubbed to death and the (ex) parents sterilized.
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2005-06-23 01:00:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Personally, I think non-compulsory voting doesn't solve the problem, because sometimes (I think we can write off Bush's second victory to this) people who don't know what they're doing still really want to vote.
A small questionnaire on the major policies of the party would go a long way to improving this form of democracy I think. Obviously, the questions and answers would have to be so heavily scrutinised by the parties and Parliament beforehand that anybody at all concerned would have no trouble passing, and that's the whole idea.
But that does raise the issue of self-interest - if you're a member of some sort of group which would stand to benefit or lose directly from one party gaining power, should you be able to vote solely on that aspect without having any idea about other policy platforms?
Submitted by jack0173 (user info) at 2005-06-23 00:36:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by c1ndy (user info) at 2005-06-22 16:26:49 (#)
Ranking: 2
I'm too lazy to thi nk about all this. How do you Auzzies feel about voting being compulsary?
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I think I made my views on compulsory voting known.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2005-06-22 14:57:53 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2005-06-22 11:58:22 (#)
Ranking: 2
Stupid voters
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I live in the hope that the overall structure of modern society will dissolve due to the power of the internet, and only international business and organisations will hold any power.
What did I do with that UN admin application form?
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You want a world run by coke and Nike?
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Coporate competetiveness has many of the same problems as democracy, in fact I think I could do a whole post on just that.
Submitted by c1ndy (user info) at 2005-06-22 16:26:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I'm too lazy to thi nk about all this. How do you Auzzies feel about voting being compulsary?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2005-06-22 14:57:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2005-06-22 11:58:22 (#)
Ranking: 2
Stupid voters
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I live in the hope that the overall structure of modern society will dissolve due to the power of the internet, and only international business and organisations will hold any power.
What did I do with that UN admin application form?
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You want a world run by coke and Nike?
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2005-06-22 11:58:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Stupid voters
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I live in the hope that the overall structure of modern society will dissolve due to the power of the internet, and only international business and organisations will hold any power.
What did I do with that UN admin application form?
Submitted by jack0173 (user info) at 2005-06-22 10:18:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by alragusa (user info) at 2005-06-22 09:48:26 (#)
Ranking: 1
In a sense, your point about not being able to run for Prime Minister, or whatever queer thing you have in Australia, is a moot point.
Odds are you will subscribe to one political party or the other - you can be for something or against it. You could be a Centrist so maybe in theory you could have 3 political parties, but in America people hold strong beliefs, so people will always lean on way or another. In the end, people will always vote in their own self-interest - duh.
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I wouldn't be able to run for any kind of Parliamentary position because of the dominance of two parties and the stupidity of voters. Whereas in a perfect democracy everyone would have a fair chance, people just wouldn't know about me, due to their own lack of education on the matter, and so wouldn't vote for me.
People will ALWAYS lean one way or another? Maybe there's just no one else to vote for. Woo! Democracy. What about that Ralph Nader guy? But no one knows who he is right? Stupid voters.
Submitted by jack0173 (user info) at 2005-06-22 10:13:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-06-22 08:29:05 (#)
Ranking: 2
The Plant Janitor (Three of Three) (Rating: 2 on 17 reviews, last by rad1101 21 minutes ago)
Submitted by Jack11058 (View user info) at 2005-06-18 10:03:31
The Wonders of Democracy (Rating: 1.33 on 13 reviews, last by Berty 7 minutes ago)
Submitted by JACK0173 (View user info) at 2005-06-22 01:45:08
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see the difference?
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heh yeah I know, sorry. I'll have to change the name that comes up or something. But don't you find us n00bs loveable in that helples puppydog sort of way?
Submitted by alragusa (user info) at 2005-06-22 09:48:26 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I agree about the test for voting.
Most people are idiots with regards to politics and history.
In a sense, your point about not being able to run for Prime Minister, or whatever queer thing you have in Australia, is a moot point.
Odds are you will subscribe to one political party or the other - you can be for something or against it. You could be a Centrist so maybe in theory you could have 3 political parties, but in America people hold strong beliefs, so people will always lean on way or another. In the end, people will always vote in their own self-interest - duh.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-06-22 08:29:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The Plant Janitor (Three of Three) (Rating: 2 on 17 reviews, last by rad1101 21 minutes ago)
Submitted by Jack11058 (View user info) at 2005-06-18 10:03:31
The Wonders of Democracy (Rating: 1.33 on 13 reviews, last by Berty 7 minutes ago)
Submitted by JACK0173 (View user info) at 2005-06-22 01:45:08
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see the difference?
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2005-06-22 08:20:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
the day we stop believing in democracy is the day we lose it.
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I think Tinkerbelle said that about fairies.
Submitted by BLITZKREIG_BOB (user info) at 2005-06-22 08:04:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Cesar Chavez?
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-06-22 08:04:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
This is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause.
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2005-06-22 08:02:12 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by missflibble (user info) at 2005-06-22 07:56:51 (#)
Ranking: 1
the day we stop believing in democracy is the day we lose it.
cant remember who said that.
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Queen Amidala?
Submitted by missflibble (user info) at 2005-06-22 07:56:51 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
the day we stop believing in democracy is the day we lose it.
cant remember who said that.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-06-22 07:55:20 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Australians are nothing more than English speaking Puerto Ricans.
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That is funny.
I am going to use that as a title to my next post.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2005-06-22 07:48:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Australians are nothing more than English speaking Puerto Ricans.
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Jesus Bob, that is the harshest thing I've seen you write.
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2005-06-22 07:44:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Bob is a tool.
Hey Bob, what noteworthy thing did you do to achieve your country's "status"?
Submitted by BLITZKREIG_BOB (user info) at 2005-06-22 07:20:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Who cares?
You Australians want to have the same status as the US, but you don't want to do anything noteworthy to accomplish it other than criticise.
Australians are nothing more than English speaking Puerto Ricans.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2005-06-22 07:17:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
All very true. The point of our democracy is not built around the vote (a mere formaility), it's built around the princple of diluted power. Democracy is a cage of bickering we use to trap our leaders whilst we shakle them with chains of burocracy. This quote:
"Democracy is the art of achieving nothing by doing a lot"
Is very true. We do this for a reason, a very good reason. That reason is the simple fact that I'm right, about everything. I know my own mind and I understand people and societies, I know whats right and I know what is best for people.
This last statement is of course utter bollocks, I know me but I know fuck all about anyone elses needs. I know fuck all about the needs of the elderly, the poor, the very rich, the sick and the almost everybody in this country. You don't know any better either, nobody does. The only thing you can possibly hope to understand and know whats best for is you.
Now with the best will in the world a small body, or even a huge body, of people can not make decisions that will suit everyone, you can't please all the people all the time and all that.
By weakening the effect of government we supply the populace with freedom and also a structure to live in. The downside is freedom. I can do whatever I want. I could pick up my phone, right now, walk across the office and cave my bosses head in. No one will stop me. No one will ask me my intentions as I walk over to him. Doesn't mean my actions don't have consequences. I'll probably go to jail. Much more importantly, my boss will really be dead. He'll be gone for ever. That man is a father, husband and freind to many. I realise that, we all realise that and it is that that keeps us from anarchy.
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-22 04:47:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
One of the problems in Australia is we've never had a leader, only politicians.
Personally I believe in democracy but not universal suffrage. I think some sort of political aptitude test needs to be taken before giving someone the right to vote. The observers of this test would have to be independent though so it can't become biased towards a certain political slant.
As a socialist I could take this democracy even further and have not only the politicians changed by democracy but also the heads of major industries, kind of like a shareholders' vote on management.
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2005-06-22 03:02:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by kai070169 (user info) at 2005-06-22 02:01:19 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Same situation in Canada. Ultimately, we get the type of governance we collectively deserve...