Quick thought on Flag Burning (648 hits)
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Submitted by Kurbs <staggman.at.gmail.com> (View user info) at 2005-06-23 08:51:08 EDT
I'm sure youve all heard by now, they are trying to pass an amendment to "prohibit physical desecration of Olde Glory." There might be posts about this, I haven't checked yet.
My opinion on this is that you cannot force someone to respect something. You NEED to give people the freedom to respect the flag if they want to, and burn it if they don't. The fact is 90% of people don't want to burn a flag, but the point is that they can if they want to.
Don't get me wrong, I despise people who feel the need to destroy the symbol of our country, because they aren't creative enough to come up with a different way to protest, but it is their right to be an idiot.
I expect to be disagreed with, but if you do, please give me a good argument, because I am willing to change my veiws IF someone can show me my ways are wrong. Too many people now just say "You're wrong, I'm right you're an idiot"... that pisses me off more than flag burning.
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Submitted by thecaes (user info) at 2005-06-24 09:18:51 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Also, I wonder what the motivation for this new law is. Do the parties responsible for pushing this through really give a rats ass, or is this just a good media opportunity for them to say, "we love our country, we're so passionate about your freedom" and rally the country behind them. I notice pretty much everyone who spoke about it referenced 9/11 in some way. "If you ask the brave men at ground zero on 9/11, they'll tell you...etc etc"
Does EVERY discussion regarding America have to somehow involve 9/11? Seems like a pretty cheap way to make a point to me. It's a sneaky way to imply that anyone who doesn't agree with you on a matter where you invoke the sacred 9/11 is, in fact, allied with the terrorists.
But I'm cynical that way. Maybe they're being genuine, but I don't trust politicians and media.
Submitted by thecaes (user info) at 2005-06-24 09:14:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Ooooh, fun debate.
Williamson says: "Sometimes for the good of social stability it is important that acts of rebellion against the state are squashed by the state before it can lead to seperatism. Burning the flag is not a sign of struggle against the government, it's the entire nation and everything she is. It is, quite frankly a symbolic act of war and I don't think every man and his dog should expect to be allowed to burn the symbol of the nation without consequence"
No offense dude but that's total bullshit. If I burn a flag, YOU don't get to tell me why I burned it or what statement I was making when I did it. I could be burning it in protest of corporate greed, political corruption, or the fact that they're bulldozing the Chuck E Cheese down the street. You can't say I'm burning it because I hate the entire nation and want to declare war on America. Jesus.
Secondly, a flag is just a piece of cloth. It only has the symbolism that you attach to it. And its nice that it's inspiring, symbolically, but America is a complex creature and cannot be summed up by a piece of fabric flapping in the wind. Anyone who thinks it can is something of a retarded idealist.
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2005-06-23 15:58:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-06-23 10:59:16 (#)
Ranking: -2
the problem none of these posts are giving the facts, or what was actually voted on.
These all are written very badly.
Submitted by alragusa (user info) at 2005-06-23 12:45:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
The issue here is not flag burning. It is intent.
Killing someone could be illegal (murder) or not illegal (self-defense).
Burning a flag to dispose of it is fine.
If you burn a flag to insight a riot, it should be illegal.
Also, I would kick your hippie ass.
Submitted by simple_catalyst (user info) at 2005-06-23 12:14:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
anyone know the proper way (and by proper i mean honorable) to
retire a flag?
you burn it.
i spent a large majority of my youth going to ceremonies where we burned flags.
sure, sure, we played taps or some shit, but we still burned them.
actually shredded them up, then burned them.
burning flags is a hell of alot less disrespectful than leaving the goddamn
thing out in the "elements" so that it looks like fucking shit every time i
drive by your goddamn church.
sorry for the rant...
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2005-06-23 11:30:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:16:53 (#)
Ranking: 2
In my eyes, burning the flag is alligning yourself as an enemy of the flag. The flag represents the nation and thus to burn the flag is to announce yourself as an enemy of the state. This is called rebellion and seperatism and in a stable nation can not be allowed to go unheeded.
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Damn right Williamson, all enemies of the state must be crushed. We should round up all the enemies of the people, shoot them in the head and bury them in a ditch with a bulldozer. Just like those progressive thinkers in Serbia.
God damn hippy, subversives...
Submitted by funk_boy (user info) at 2005-06-23 11:29:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: -1
Submitted by Feijuada (user info) at 2005-06-23 11:21:44 (#)
Ranking: -2
Everyone should have the right to shit on the flag if they felt like it. It represents the United States, sure, but it's just a peice of cloth. It dosen't really MEAN anything. The most it's used for nowadays is for dumbasses to put up everywhere to feel like they're patriotic.
i agree with this.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2005-06-23 11:27:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Once upon a time, Sam went on a school trip to what was then the Soviet Union. One of his buddies took a snap shot of the Kremlin and was instantly surrounded by a lot of bad noise. They figured out that it was a bunch of kids on a school trip so nobody got sent to any salt mines, but they did warn the kids to be more careful.
this is our future
the land of the free and the home of the brave my ass
Submitted by Feijuada (user info) at 2005-06-23 11:21:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Everyone should have the right to shit on the flag if they felt like it. It represents the United States, sure, but it's just a peice of cloth. It dosen't really MEAN anything. The most it's used for nowadays is for dumbasses to put up everywhere to feel like they're patriotic.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-06-23 10:59:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
the problem none of these posts are giving the facts, or what was actually voted on.
These all are written very badly.
Submitted by stardamage (user info) at 2005-06-23 10:46:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Aren't you supposed to burn a flag if it's become too damaged to hang anymore? What would happen to that tradition?
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-06-23 10:23:02 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:16:53 (#)
Ranking: 2
I guess I agree with bushy-boy on this one. But just barely.
---
Bush hasn't done anything about this yet.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-06-23 10:14:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I understand your point williamson. I wouldn't live by it, but I can see where you're coming from.
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 10:10:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-06-23 10:00:55 (#)
Ranking: 2
As for your boot-stomping friend. Go right ahead. I don't care what you do with your flag at home in your own privacy. Behind closed doors you should be able to roll up the flag and smoke it if you want. I'm talking about public burnings. """
We were in public and nobody gave a shit. People should stop caring so much.
=-=-=-=--=-===-=
If I saw you I would've given a shit (if I were Canadian).
Our nation brought us up, gave us roads, education, healthcare, order, justice. Yes, we pay taxes for these things but it is not like a fee, it's more of a kitty that all Canadians contribute to and all reap the benefits. The flag is the best symbol of Canada we have. Respect it.
Oh, who am I kidding? I can't convince anyone here of being more patriotic. It's such an old and outdated idea.
Anyway, I'm going to bed. Good Night Uber.
Submitted by MickGinny (user info) at 2005-06-23 10:04:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I really don't have regard for symbols in general. I have respect and reverence for people whose acts of sacrifice and courage have established what our country's principles our based upon....like the Fonz.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-06-23 10:00:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
As for your boot-stomping friend. Go right ahead. I don't care what you do with your flag at home in your own privacy. Behind closed doors you should be able to roll up the flag and smoke it if you want. I'm talking about public burnings. """
We were in public and nobody gave a shit. People should stop caring so much.
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:57:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
"So now that we've stamped out dissent because dissent makes you an enemy of the state, where is democracy? Gone. "
I'm all for dissent against government. That is democracy.
But dissent against the state... That is cold war.
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:55:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:45:13 (#)
Ranking: 2
On the other hand it's a agressive act of symbolism against the nation and I see no reason why the nation shouldn't be allowed to punish these self-proclaimed enemies. """
That's the point "self-proclaimed enemies". Would you rather have someone publically show his disagreement or have a sneaky terrorist who comes out under his rock only to bomb civilians?
Last year I had a canadian flag on the national holiday. My friend snatched it from my hand and boot stomped it. We both laughed and got drunk and my country is still stable.
Desecrating a flag is benign, contrary to other actions, so you might as well let people do it...I think.
-=-=-==--=-=-==-
Well, no terrorist would burn a flag if we gave him the chance. Too smart for that. And even if they did, what do you suggest? A database of flag-burners? That'd be a greater incursion on rights than not letting them burn the flag to begin with.
As for your boot-stomping friend. Go right ahead. I don't care what you do with your flag at home in your own privacy. Behind closed doors you should be able to roll up the flag and smoke it if you want. I'm talking about public burnings.
Submitted by HadToBeDone (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:54:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:16:53 (#)
Ranking: 2
In my eyes, burning the flag is alligning yourself as an enemy of the flag. The flag represents the nation and thus to burn the flag is to announce yourself as an enemy of the state. This is called rebellion and seperatism and in a stable nation can not be allowed to go unheeded.
-------------------
So now that we've stamped out dissent because dissent makes you an enemy of the state, where is democracy? Gone.
If they ban the burning of the American flag, I'll just have to burn a regular flag with "America" written on it.
Submitted by c1ndy (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:52:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
yup
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:46:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
At the end of the day, when the government has degradede so far as to actually sacrifice your First Ammendmant Rights (I'm a brit) for the symbol of the very ideology it professes, does the symbol itself not lose meaning?
I was under the impression that American was a nation of Liberty and Freedom. When that freedom is infringed, the symbol becomes a fallucy.
It's like passing a law that black people can't visit the Statue of Liberty.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:45:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
On the other hand it's a agressive act of symbolism against the nation and I see no reason why the nation shouldn't be allowed to punish these self-proclaimed enemies. """
That's the point "self-proclaimed enemies". Would you rather have someone publically show his disagreement or have a sneaky terrorist who comes out under his rock only to bomb civilians?
Last year I had a canadian flag on the national holiday. My friend snatched it from my hand and boot stomped it. We both laughed and got drunk and my country is still stable.
Desecrating a flag is benign, contrary to other actions, so you might as well let people do it...I think.
Submitted by Bellebrown (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:39:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I completely agree with you.
I won't try to show you a different argument, I'll just show you my boobs instead.
Submitted by Adamdidit2u (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:38:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:16:53 (#)
Ranking: 2
In my eyes, burning the flag is alligning yourself as an enemy of the flag.
===============================
By making it illegal in this country, we only give the burning of the flag in other countries more signifigance.
Do you think all those in the middle east would be burning flags if we were like
TONIGHT ON FOX!
and then burned a flag the size of Rhode Island, and had GW Bush come on and be like "See we can burn flags bigger and better than you too!"
He'd of course have to follow up with a "-2 DIE TERROISTS!"
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:37:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:30:15 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:16:53 (#)
Ranking: 2
In my eyes, burning the flag is alligning yourself as an enemy of the flag. The flag represents the nation and thus to burn the flag is to announce yourself as an enemy of the state. This is called rebellion and seperatism and in a stable nation can not be allowed to go unheeded.
=============
We have had seperatism for hundreds of years. Hell, I even have a vacation tomorrow for our "national" holiday for the province. The country isn't plunging in civil war. As long as seperatism remains democratic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's healthy even. It keeps the country's government on edge...in my opinion
-==-=-=-=-
On one hand I know that a smoldering flag isn't going to lead to World War 3 and banning flag-burning is a blow to civil liberties.
On the other hand it's a agressive act of symbolism against the nation and I see no reason why the nation shouldn't be allowed to punish these self-proclaimed enemies.
I'm all over the place on this topic. Personally I'm leaning more towards the "ban" agenda but I'm not totally clear on it all. I still need to muse on all this.
I know though, if I saw someone burning my flag in the streets, I'd attack the fellow. In theory. In practice I'm too cowardly. But, in theory.
Submitted by MandaPanda (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:35:06 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Good way to start a debate, kiddo. I don't have a personal opinion on this matter. So here are some lyrics from Blue's Clues.
Here's the mail, it never fails. It makes me want to wag my tail, When it comes I want to wail: Mail!
We just got a letter, we just got a letter, we just got a letter, I wonder who it's from?
Submitted by funk_boy (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:32:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:16:53 (#)
Ranking: 2
In my eyes, burning the flag is alligning yourself as an enemy of the flag.
Just. Chill. It's a bit of cloth. If someone attacks my country, then i'll consider them an 'ENEMY'. and where do you stop? what about burning a colour print out of a flag?
Submitted by Ducky (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:30:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Freedom of expression.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:30:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:16:53 (#)
Ranking: 2
In my eyes, burning the flag is alligning yourself as an enemy of the flag. The flag represents the nation and thus to burn the flag is to announce yourself as an enemy of the state. This is called rebellion and seperatism and in a stable nation can not be allowed to go unheeded.
=============
We have had seperatism for hundreds of years. Hell, I even have a vacation tomorrow for our "national" holiday for the province. The country isn't plunging in civil war. As long as seperatism remains democratic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's healthy even. It keeps the country's government on edge...in my opinion.
Submitted by funk_boy (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:22:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
what about burning a colour print out of a flag?
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:16:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
In my eyes, burning the flag is alligning yourself as an enemy of the flag. The flag represents the nation and thus to burn the flag is to announce yourself as an enemy of the state. This is called rebellion and seperatism and in a stable nation can not be allowed to go unheeded.
Sometimes for the good of social stability it is important that acts of rebellion against the state are squashed by the state before it can lead to seperatism. Burning the flag is not a sign of struggle against the government, it's the entire nation and everything she is. It is, quite frankly a symbolic act of war and I don't think every man and his dog should expect to be allowed to burn the symbol of the nation without consequence.
I'm all for political freedom and such, but flag-burning is just too hostile for me to allow if I was in charge. I guess I agree with bushy-boy on this one. But just barely.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:14:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Nuke China too. Oil price will go down and more jobs for us.
Submitted by MrWillard (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:12:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
ubmitted by InsoManiac (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:04:19 (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by swamp_donkey (user info) at 2005-06-23 08:59:09 (#)
Ranking: 2
What the US needs is a good ol' down home civil war.
========================
Nuke Texas.
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No...please.....nuke Georgia first.
Other than that THE SOUTH WILL RIIIIISE AGAIN
Submitted by Fleadh (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:11:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I wonder to what extent the ban would encompass, If I were to draw the stars and stripes on a plackard and then throw that plackard onto a bonfire or light it and hold it aloft is it the same as burning a cloth flag?
If I were to photograph a cloth flag and publically burn that, Would that be an offense?
Would it be an offense for me, an american citizen abroad to publically burn an american flag publically in ireland, like say it was televised or something?
If an american had a flag flying proudly for years and felt it old and in need of replacing were to replace it and burn the old one in a garden bonfire would that be an offence?
Submitted by missflibble (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:10:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I AGREE TOTALLY AND WITHOUT...ERM...WHATEVER.
Submitted by ParlorTrick (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:07:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I agree.
Submitted by InsoManiac (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:04:19 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by swamp_donkey (user info) at 2005-06-23 08:59:09 (#)
Ranking: 2
What the US needs is a good ol' down home civil war.
========================
Nuke Texas.
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2005-06-23 09:01:02 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by swamp_donkey (user info) at 2005-06-23 08:59:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
What the US needs is a good ol' down home civil war.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-06-23 08:57:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
pretty much.
A flag desecration amendment would be a violation of the 1st amendment.
Submitted by funk_boy (user info) at 2005-06-23 08:56:12 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
i've never really thought about it.
having just this minute thought about it, i've decided that if they're that pissed off with something, surely burning a flag's not that harsh. it's only a bit of cloth.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-06-23 08:55:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I don't really have an argument to provide since to me a flag is just a piece of fabric and I see no problem in wiping my ass with it.
Good way to initiate a debate though.
Submitted by DaBaddestHic (user info) at 2005-06-23 08:54:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I agree with you. I don't like the thought of people burning the flag, but if they must then I don't think it should be an offense. After all, they could be doing much worse things to protest the government or lash out against America. Everybody knows what happens in other countries when someone doesn't like the way things are run...