Poker Forum. Playing the Man, Playing the Game. (708 hits)
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Submitted by SiskelandFatboy <Toby1472 AIM/Gmail> (View user info) at 2005-06-24 10:09:49 EDT
In the last post, we discussed some over played hands and talked a little bit about hand value. It was brough up that this topic has been beat to death with the explosion of Texas Hold'em, and I cannot disagree. There are literally a thousand books, videos, websites and magazines that will address these things in detail. I recommend anything authored by David Sklansky for the "how to" information.
This time I thought we would jump into playing the game, and playing the game at a level above the rest of the players. Out playing them.
What makes a good player? History, potential, mathematical mastery, or luck? They call it "gamble." Having "gamble" means packaging the knowledge, the skill, the instinct, the heart and guts to risk it all with nothing, into your game. Very few players have it, but having played with one or two that did, you can sense it instantly.
Bluffing is an important aspect of tournament hold'em, you simply have to steal blinds and antes, as well as crucial pots along the course of the tournament. You cannot win tournaments by making the most hands, you have to keep yourself above water during cold runs.
"A poker player will risk a bet to win a pot with a bluff, but a championship Hold'em player will risk his stack." Just a high stakes amateur, but he showed me "how to play the man."
"If you can't win the pot, you need to figure out a way to take it!" Johnny Chan.
So, what do we want our opponent to do when we are bluffing? Easy, we want them to fold. How can we do this with as little risk or effort as possible? Oh sure, we could slide all of our chips into the pot and dare him to call. Or we could use his level of skill against him.
1) Bad players cannot be bluffed, you must simply show them a better hand to win the pot.
2) Good players can be out played more often than bad players. It is the irony of poker.
Make it look like you want a call. Sounds ridiculous (If not, you need to be at a table), but players have to make decisions, difficult decisions throughout a hold'em tournament. Simply provide them with the information they need to make the decision you want them to make, manipuate them.
Against good players, a small bet looks like you want a call. A check raise looks like you are trying to trap. These are very effective bluffs because good players will do the opposite of what they think you want them to do. If it looks like a trap, they will muck and avoid it, unless they have the nuts or a very big draw.
Daniel Negreanu used a similar play in a recent event on the World Poker Tour. Playing against Humberto Brenes, in the big blind, Daniel limped in with A-5. Humberto, sensing weakness in a 3-handed game, raised with A-9s. Daniel re-raised a million chips, and Brenes folded. That is manipulating your opponents. He made it appear that he was limping in with a monster hand.
Poker, for the most part, is a non-confrontational game. "The Art of War" is an absolute must read, if you play No Limit Hold'em.
On the flip side, you can use the same logic and thinking. Let's say you raise pre-flop and flop a monster hand, set, straight, whatever. Most players would begin laying a bear trap, barely bet or check with the intention of raising or even slowplaying. Great players, sense traps and can avoid them. Make it look like you don't want a call, over bet the pot. If it looks like a stone cold bluff, you are likely to get more action. Now, against weaker players the check raise or slow-playing is the right play if they are aggressive. If they are just calling stations, lead into them and let them call, as I said, you cannot outplay weak players, you end up outplaying yourself and losing the pot by tring to get cute.
Know your opponents, know how to take down pots based on who you are playing against. The key to No Limit Hold'em is to force a man into making the wrong decision. To do this, you have to force him into difficult decisions. Mastering the game is getting a player to do what you want him to do, while he believes in his heart he has made the right decision.
As a foot note, I do not believe that you should EVER show a hand as courtesy. And in tournaments, do not clash with the other "best player" in a monster pot, if you have the nuts, let him know by re-raising or moving all in. You stay out of his way and in return he should stay out of yours, nor should you slow play the other. It is an unwritten rule, but first, you must earn his respect. Why butt heads with the other top player when you don't have to?
User Reviews
Submitted by SiskelandFatboy (user info) at 2005-07-12 17:18:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Totally_useless (user info) at 2005-07-12 14:22:53 (#)
Ranking: 2
Another solid post.
Anyone here play online, specifically Poker School Online or Bugsy Club?
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I play at Poker School Online. Toby1472
Well, I don't play much anymore since I am not eligible for the ranking system. I was asked to submit articles to the website monthly for the newsletter, they waived the monthly fee but I can't accumulate points.
I still play from time to time though for fun.
Submitted by Professional_Peon (user info) at 2005-07-12 14:50:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
+2 because Tuesday is Poker night!!!!!
Submitted by Totally_useless (user info) at 2005-07-12 14:22:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Another solid post.
Anyone here play online, specifically Poker School Online or Bugsy Club?
username: yewslus
Submitted by Sassmasterr (user info) at 2005-06-24 16:56:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
hmmm
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2005-06-24 15:52:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by c1ndy (user info) at 2005-06-24 12:29:29 (#)
Ranking: 1
Is shlongy dead? He's normally first on a post like this telling war stories about when he gave up work to play poker for a living.
_____
I was thinking the same thing, until I remembered he's in Atlanta playing golf this weekend.
Submitted by fudgepacker (user info) at 2005-06-24 13:15:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
i sat down at a NL game at the palms in vegas with scotty nguyen. i lost my shirt, as did everyone else at the table. but it was worth it to see such an amazing player for a few hours.
Submitted by c1ndy (user info) at 2005-06-24 12:29:29 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Is shlongy dead? He's normally first on a post like this telling war stories about when he gave up work to play poker for a living.
Submitted by SiskelandFatboy (user info) at 2005-06-24 12:07:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by BillsSBChamps (user info) at 2005-06-24 12:04:40 (#)
Ranking: 2
I agree with the end statement about laying off the other good players. I play at the casinos around me a few times a week and I know who the good players are. We try to stay out of each others way and take down the tourists. It works well for everyone.
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It's just good poker sense. Play against the hacks and leave the sharks alone.
"These tourists didn't come out here to fold." best advice I have ever been given.....
Submitted by BillsSBChamps (user info) at 2005-06-24 12:04:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I agree with the end statement about laying off the other good players. I play at the casinos around me a few times a week and I know who the good players are. We try to stay out of each others way and take down the tourists. It works well for everyone.
Submitted by nitty34 (user info) at 2005-06-24 11:26:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Yeah, I've brought up the problem at a few tables in the chat feature, and EVERYONE who has cashed out has had the same issue. That's a crock of shit, I think. I don't know if the site does it intentionally, or if we've tasted the beauty of the big win and thus play looser.
Actually, on Paradise I won 7th in the same tournament ($2200) a week or so before hitting the big one, cashed out $1500 of it, and still won shortly thereafter. I think it had to do with the hands I chose (and chose not) to play.
Submitted by SiskelandFatboy (user info) at 2005-06-24 11:20:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
That's called the "cashout jinx" Nitty.
Every poker site I have played at Paradise, Party, Full Tilt, and Poker Stars, I have won money. Everytime I have cashed some of it out, I have went on a losing streak that is unparalleled.
The last one was at Full Tilt, I cashed 6g in January to take to Tunica with me, I left 1800 in my account and the next 13 times I had pocket Kings, someone at the table had pocket Aces. True story, 13 consecutive times. Not an ace on the board, pocket Aces.
I sent an email, told them what I thought (and cashed my 7 hundred remaining) and haven't played internet poker since.
Submitted by nitty34 (user info) at 2005-06-24 11:07:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I won the tournament on that hand.
Subtracting my $90 investment (might have been $120 - I might have added on twice. Can't remember)
I made over $12,100 for about 6 hours of playing.
Quite possibly the greatest night of my life. It bought hardwoods for the house, paid off some debt, and there's still some left in the bank.
And since then, I've won absolutely fuckall. I left $2K in to play with, and it's gone.
Submitted by spedmonkey (user info) at 2005-06-24 11:02:42 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
So... did you make any money out of it, nitty? I only show bluffs if it's sure to set the other guy on tilt, like if the hand's over $100 (my friends and I usually play $10 buy-in cash games, just for reference). If you get bluffed out of a $100 pot, and you know it, you're going on tilt regardless.
Submitted by nitty34 (user info) at 2005-06-24 10:40:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
You've made my point.
"That irritates me."
That's the goal. Piss the opponent off, get him on tilt, and he plays with his pride instead of with his brain.
I was heads up on Paradise's $50K 9PM R&A about 2 months ago. 1st got $12.2K, 2nd got $7.7K. My initial investment was $30, $30 more for a rebuy, and a final $30 for an add-on. $90.
I went into the heads up match with about a 60/40 chip lead. 1st hand went all in with 9-2 in the big after he limped in. He folded, I showed.
3 hands later, with KK, I went all in again. He remembered, because he called with K-6. I won.
Submitted by SiskelandFatboy (user info) at 2005-06-24 10:27:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't like to show bluffs. I want them to think they made the right choice, I play poker in a very non-confrontational manner. I want to keep it loose, and fun. I want people to talk, discuss hand strategies at the table (I can't believe how many people do this).
The only time I have ever showed a bluff, I had 8-3 in the small blind. Two players limped in from the middle of the table, I figured like K-7s and Q-J or something and I raised. The flop came down, K-9-2. I bet out approximately the size of the pot and one player called. The turn was a blank and I moved all in, with 8-high. He mucked face up K-8s, I showed my hand and said "Not playing every hand doesn't mean I don't know how play at all" But there had been some exchanges earlier in the day between him and myself.
I don't like players to tell me how good they are while dragging huge pots with J-4 suited or some shit. It irritates me.
Submitted by funk_boy (user info) at 2005-06-24 10:22:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
1) Bad players cannot be bluffed, you must simply show them a better hand to win the pot.
2) Good players can be out played more often than bad players. It is the irony of poker.
i came to this conclusion a while ago. thusly i agree.
i LOVE texas holdem. win more than i lose.
but i can't get on with online poker though? i just lose.
Submitted by spedmonkey (user info) at 2005-06-24 10:19:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I bluff a lot, but only rarely will I push all-in on a bluff. Not only does giving a lot of action let you take a lot of pots, but it will also make others more likely to call you when you actually have a legit hand. Just be careful with your bluffs; if you have a reputation as an action player, others will be likely to try and trap you. Unless you're sure of your read, let the hand go after your bet gets called the first time.
Submitted by nitty34 (user info) at 2005-06-24 10:18:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
As a foot note, I do not believe that you should EVER show a hand as courtesy. And in tournaments, do not clash with the other "best player" in a monster pot, if you have the nuts, let him know by re-raising or moving all in. You stay out of his way and in return he should stay out of yours, nor should you slow play the other. It is an unwritten rule, but first, you must earn his respect. Why butt heads with the other top player when you don't have to?
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I totally agree with the not clashing with the other shark at the table. You do that, and you're back to a hand-vs-hand mentality as opposed to a player-vs-player. Your goal should be to be with him or her, heads up, at the end.
As for showing hands...I have mixed feelings.
If I think I have a stronger hand than the one folded to me, I NEVER show. Let them think they might have beaten me had they called.
If I steal a pot with a bluff, I'll show occasionally. Only if I KNOW without doubt my hand is not the strongest. There's nothing like mental manipulation, and if a good players folds top 2 pair fearing my set, straight, or flush, I'll flip over my rags all day long. Get into their head, show you're bluffing, and you're more likely to get a call when you play the exact same bet with the nuts.
Key is to vary your bets, regardless of hand strength. Don't bet the same hand the same way, ever.
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2005-06-24 10:14:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
This is interesting...