God (1280 hits)
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Submitted by <veritatislocutor.at.netscape.net> (View user info) at 2003-04-30 10:18:35 EDT
Murphy's posts on Alcoholics Anonymous have brought the notion of "God" to the fore again, and I'm interested in people's opinions. Do you believe in a God or Goddess, or some sort of divine ultimate reality? Why or why not?
Myself, I belive in a Something that for clarity's sake I can only call "God." I have several reasons for this belief:
1.) Historical continuity: throughout history, human beings have believed in and experienced Something beyond themselves that they have called "God," and while much of the mythology that various cultures created to explain this Something has been disproven by science, the reality that the mythology was meant to explain remains. The "God"-experience has had such a powerful, transformative effect on so many people for so long that there must be something real behind it.
2.) Personal experience: a various points in my life, I have experienced a Presence, a feeling of power and love that I cannot explain, that seems to be coming from beyond me and not within my mind. I don't believe in miracles or providence, and this isn't some cheesy thing like "God helped me win the game" or "God saved me from a car accident." It's something deeper and more profound, a feeling of peace and revelation and harmony that is a little like the rays of the rising sun shining briefly over the horizon.
3.) Rationality: the existence of God--that is, the Divine Substance, the Source of Being, the Totality of Existence--makes a great deal of rational sense to my philosophical mind. Spinoza has become one of my favorite writers, and I was amazed how closely the notion of God he laid out in his "Ethics" parallels my own. This is also similar to Aristotle's version of God in "The Metaphysics" and the notion of God laid out by the radical Episcopal bishop Spong in "Why Christianity Must Change or Die."
I don't believe that any hell exists, nor do I believe that anyone will be punished for not believing in God. However, living in God provides a source of order, or peace and strength, and harmony to my existence. What do you all think?
User Reviews
Submitted by catscradle at 2003-05-28 19:12:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Partholon left us :(
Submitted by K.M (user info) at 2003-05-28 18:32:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
partholon, shut up.
You did not even effectively refute his point from earlier in the thread, when he asked why god=existance.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-05-02 16:17:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Jwlmar--
Wait till your brain develops a little more. Soon, you'll realize WE'RE ALL WHACKJOBS, including you, and that you are no more or less whacked than anyone else.
Belief in God harms none and helps many. What good is there in abolishing it? Religion is a different matter entirely.
Submitted by jwlmar10 (user info) at 2003-05-02 15:45:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Sorry, but I think you're a total whack-job. I used to think like you when I was alot younger. Then my brain developed more and I began to realize that things like Santa Claus aren't real.
Submitted by theoutstander (user info) at 2003-05-01 21:21:01 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"Is it possible for thought to exist without time?"
yes
"So do we exist only as a mere thought? I've never encountered a thought that could ride a bike."
We were created as mere thoughts. I can ride a bike, maybe we should hang out some time.
"Drop this Karma bullshit. You're just plain superstitious and you need to get over this shoddy logic."
How is it shoddy logic? If you do something bad, something bad happens to you. How is that shoddy? Maybe I just don't know what shoddy means.
"So does this mean I also create infinitely intricate universes in my head when I meditate? I don't understand how you can say that God created us as spirits and then turn around and say that we are all gods."
Its possible to build machines that are capable to build other machines. I hope you understand what I'm trying to get across with this analogy.
"Suppose I wanted to use my free will to balance an elephant on my face. According to you my free will would be strong enough to hold up the elephant without dying. "
Yes, if you had complete control of your free will. Don't think about an elephant, not even for an instance. I'm willing to bet all my beliefs that you thought about an elephant, even if only for an instance. That's not what I would call good control.
"I think your source is a little biased."
Would you like more? Most people know more about Jesus than Edgar Cayce or Seth. Sorry for using a source that you think is biased.
"I don't see how being an optimist/pessimist makes one comparable to God. The only thing that one's outlook affects is one's immune system and stress levels. I think many would consider God to be a little more powerful than that."
It only affects those two things? Out of curiosity, what makes you think that? Is it because you didn't read it in a science magazine... yet?
"You left your body twice? Riggghhhttt... What makes you think you left your body? Did you ever think that the brain has a certain way of processing your sensations into perceptions and maybe... just maybe, this process can be altered and you start trippin out. You were probably on acid or some shit."
Sorry pal, but I don't do drugs. And I'm pretty sure I know how to tell the difference between dreams and reality. Yes, I have thought about it. But I found several sources on oobes (out of body experiences) and they all match up with mine. Plus many of these people were able to describe objects in different rooms. Did you ever even all that I've said a chance? Or is the truth to scary for you to accept?
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-05-01 15:21:01 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Hmm, I read your post about your little friend at the party and the horse and his lady friend. I'm afraid of the Minnesota definition of "wild".
Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2003-05-01 14:45:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Yeah, people here are freaking out about it. 'Canuck' is like 'Yankee'. Its a slighty derogatory term for someone from Canada. As for 'Wild', well you'll just have to wait and see if you achieve your goal....
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-05-01 14:33:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Quartermain, you may be winning. Because of you, I know that Vancouver is leading Minnesota 2 games to 1 in what I believe is round 2 of what I now know is called the Stanley Cup. I couldn't tell you what the hell a Canuck is, but I'm intrigued by the word "Wild".
Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2003-05-01 13:48:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Make it both. That way it'll be sure to get done
And Christianity is NOT flaccid.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-05-01 12:52:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I'm putting "corrupt Quartermain" on my May 2003 master task list in my Franklin Covey day planner. I just can't decide if it should be a personal or business goal.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-05-01 12:33:12 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Genocide:
I thought the problem with several Christian sects--like Catholicism--was that they WEREN'T flaccid? ;-)
Submitted by GenocideTickles (user info) at 2003-05-01 11:51:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Buddhist. Well not officially or by birth, but its the only well thought out Religious School of Thought.
P.S. Christianity is flacid.
Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2003-05-01 11:36:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Yeah, I'm helpless before the power of your sex goddessness. My grandfather used to warn about falling for 'feminine wiles', guess I should have listened.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-05-01 11:32:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
We get along so well because I am so damn charming that you are drawn to me like a moth to a flame. Oh you know I'm the devil, but you still just can't resist.
Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2003-05-01 11:16:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
***a tie-dye wearing, tree hugger, pot smoking, liberal hippie***
We're exact opposites. Makes me wonder why we get along as well as we do. Remind me to tell you about my run-in with the hippies the other day.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-05-01 09:48:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Beer-Bong, Are you really a Buddhist? I have what I call Buddhist leanings. I would convert, but I don't want to be a stereotype of myself. It's bad enough to be a tie-dye wearing, tree hugger, pot smoking, liberal hippie without being a tie-dye wearing, tree hugger, pot smoking, liberal, hippie Buddhist.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-05-01 09:44:26 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Jwlmar--
It's obvious that "God" has no meaning for you, and that's fine. But, why does it seem to bother you so much that other people believe? Don't give me any bullshit that it doesn't really bother you: if you didn't care, you wouldn't be arguing with me and outlander.
Loki--
Your views on the Catholic Church are not inflammatory at all. They're historically accurate.
Submitted by NicTheMaster (user info) at 2003-05-01 03:44:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Ok,OK, as it turns out, this isn't the same God-botherer that posted the 6 page ruminations on religion before.
I stand corrected and will judge each future post from this (L)user on its individual merits.
As you were.......
Submitted by jwlmar10 (user info) at 2003-05-01 00:20:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Ok. You want specific reasons? Well you asked for it. Where do I start?
1. "How many people seriously meditate? If you do, then you know that a big part of it is emptying your mind. Perhaps the universe was spawned from God's mind, and before it existed his mind was empty like in meditation."
So am I to believe that the creator of the universe is some hippy who likes to meditate? What is your point in involving meditation? All you are saying is that God thought up the universe in his own mind. This has been said all along in defense of the existence of God. Therefore, your belief is no more likely than any other person's belief.
2. "After creating a universe God thought of time and it existed. "
Is it possible for thought to exist without time? No. Thought could not exist before time.
3. "Then he thought about other people with minds of their own and we were all created as spirits."
So do we exist only as a mere thought? I've never encountered a thought that could ride a bike.
4. "However, with minds of our own we decided to go against God and Earth is training ground for learning how to be more like him. We keep coming back to learn more lessons about how to be better people. "
Do you call this the Junior Varsity theory?
5. "To me, this makes more sense than believing in a heaven or hell."
That's not saying much.
6. "I also believe in Karma "
Drop this Karma bullshit. You're just plain superstitious and you need to get over this shoddy logic.
7. "We are all gods "
So does this mean I also create infinitely intricate universes in my head when I meditate? I don't understand how you can say that God created us as spirits and then turn around and say that we are all gods.
8. "nothing is stronger than our own free will, especially not anything physical"
Suppose I wanted to use my free will to balance an elephant on my face. According to you my free will would be strong enough to hold up the elephant without dying.
9. "Even Jesus said that if we had the faith he had in one finger, we'd be able to move mountains."
I think your source is a litle biased.
10. "Our thoughts create reality."
What the fuck are you talking about? Our thoughts don't create reality. That's just some stupid phrase that hippies started grabbing onto once psychoneuroimmunology gained popularity. If I think of a pink elephant, I sure as hell won't be creating one.
11. "Why do you think many pessimists have bad lives? They think the world is a horrible place and, like God, they create a horrible world for themselves. It's the same reason optimists usually live good lives."
This is another reference to psychoneuroimmunology. I don't see how being an optimist/pessimist makes one comparable to God. The only thing that one's outlook affects is one's immune system and stress levels. I think many would consider God to be a little more powerful than that.
12. "Perhaps I can't prove all of this yet"
No shit. My point exactly. This theory is as unprovable as any whacked-out theory I could imagine.
13. "but I have at least proved to myself that there is an afterlife. I have left my body twice."
You left your body twice? Riggghhhttt... What makes you think you left your body? Did you ever think that the brain has a certain way of processing your sensations into perceptions and maybe... just maybe, this process can be altered and you start trippin out. You were probably on acid or some shit.
Ok son. There are your goddamned SPECIFIC REASONS. Please don't accuse me of merely flaming you without any reason. I had these reasons all along, but you can see how much of a nuisance it is to point out every flaw in your logic. Got any more bullshit for me?
Submitted by theoutstander (user info) at 2003-04-30 22:44:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Thank you for your comment, jwlmar10. You tell me that my theory is highly unlikely without giving any specific reasons. Could is maybe be *GASPS* THAT YOU DON'T HAVE ANY!? Feel free to keep stalling with a flame war so you can think of something to say. Or just say some shit that isn't true so that I will have to waste my time proving you wrong. =)
-Allen
Submitted by ninja <tarendar.at.Yahoo.com> at 2003-04-30 20:57:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Dark Carnival faith for me, we're about to start a chapter in atlanta
Submitted by Beer_bong (user info) at 2003-04-30 18:31:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm glad I'm a Buddhist.
Submitted by nemo (user info) at 2003-04-30 17:52:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Now it is such a bizarrely impossible coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful [as the Babel fish] could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The arguement goes something like this:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
--Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
Submitted by nemo (user info) at 2003-04-30 17:50:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
"Througout history, human beings have believed in and experienced Something beyond themselves that they have called "God," and while much of the mythology that various cultures created to explain this Something has been disproven by science, the reality that the mythology was meant to explain remains. The "God"-experience has had such a powerful, transformative effect on so many people for so long that there must be something real behind it."
I prefer to believe that rather than proving existence of God, this demonstrates the need of the human mind for faith and purpose in life. When put into perspective, our existence can seem so insignificant and short. Perhaps faith is just a way of dealing with reality.
Sometimes I wish that I had an unwavering faith in God, just because people who have such faith often seem to be happier. I know that that is not always true, but my grandmother is very religious and seems to deal better with difficulty than many people who are not religious.
Submitted by HotDog (user info) at 2003-04-30 17:39:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Religion (Heaven, Hell, Messiahs and whatnot) is a pile of bullshit. It CAN help comfort you, or make you happy, but I really don't think that any of it is true. I also think that religion's views on God are skewed and inaccurate. Why would God punish or reward objects that HE himself created? I do, however, think there could POSSIBLY be a God. It's a 1 in a million chance, and even if there is a God, do you think that It(God) is a single entity? God could be a huge network spanning throughout all of reality, creating and maintaining nature.
But what does it matter? Do you really think that we could comprehend Him? If we can't even completely understand simple things such as nature, and our own existence, then what chance do we have of deciphering God's existence? Give it up man, it's out of our circle of understanding. Stop questioning your existence and go eat a sandwhich, or alter your consciousness by drinking a beer. One way or another, stop trying to figure out why you're here and just enjoy the ride...
Nice post.
Submitted by GenocideTickles (user info) at 2003-04-30 17:29:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Life can exsist without meaning.
Submitted by jwlmar10 (user info) at 2003-04-30 17:14:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"Why can't the universe, chaos, and evolution exist without a God being mixed in? Well, how would they exist without existence?"
Because God is not existence. Existence is existence. Why is this hard to grasp?
Submitted by roanyred (user info) at 2003-04-30 17:13:10 EDT (#)
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I believe that there are aliens that control us and are the god we believe that is up there. Like earth is one big universal zoo.
Submitted by jwlmar10 (user info) at 2003-04-30 17:09:37 EDT (#)
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Hey outstander,
Maybe God is a dog that took a piss in the snow and when it froze it created the universe.
That theory is about as likely as your theory.
Submitted by jwlmar10 (user info) at 2003-04-30 17:08:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"Jwlmar--
You don't understand.
God = existence
existence = God "
Actually I understand exactly what you are trying to say. You are saying that God is existence. So basically, God is a synonym for existence and everything existence entails. So why not just call it existence? Why should God equal existence? Can't existence be good enough?
Submitted by theoutstander (user info) at 2003-04-30 16:56:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
How many people seriously meditate? If you do, then you know that a big part of it is emptying your mind. Perhaps the universe was spawned from God's mind, and before it existed his mind was empty like in meditation. After creating a universe God thought of time and it existed. Then he thought about other people with minds of their own and we were all created as spirits. However, with minds of our own we decided to go against God and Earth is training ground for learning how to be more like him. We keep coming back to learn more lessons about how to be better people.
To me, this makes more sense than believing in a heaven or hell. Until we're perfect or perfectly evil, how would it be fair for us to go to either place? I also believe in Karma (what goes around comes around). The reason for karma is not to punish people just to keep things fair, but it's so that we can see why doing bad things is wrong.
We are all gods and nothing is stronger than our own free will, especially not anything physical. Even Jesus said that if we had the faith he had in one finger, we'd be able to move mountains. Our thoughts create reality. Why do you think many pessimists have bad lives? They think the world is a horrible place and, like God, they create a horrible world for themselves. It's the same reason optimists usually live good lives.
Perhaps I can't prove all of this yet, but I have at least proved to myself that there is an afterlife. I have left my body twice.
sorry this was so long
-Allen
Submitted by Titinita (user info) at 2003-04-30 16:54:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I am feeling some confusion about my place in the universe as well. But I couldn't drop my Catholic upbringing if I tried. I don't know if that is a good or a bad thing. I stopped going to mass and I stopped praying, but I still have my devotional pictures my mother gave me and my rosaries and crusifixes and such. Most importantly, I still feel terrible guilt for thinking or saying things I shouldn't, even cursing. So, there is no way I could do anything that is concidered a sin, because I know I would never forgive myself. So, in practice, I am a devout Catholic. But, I am not in the sense I am lost spiritually. It's like all the rules with nothing in it for me. I am getting nothing in return. No peace of mind, no happiness, nothing. Hmmm. I guess maybe I am Catholic in sorta the way my non-religious friends consider themselves Jewish. I don't know. I need to study.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-04-30 16:38:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Really, we can argue this until the second coming of Christ and the answer will be the same, everyone must find their own path.
I became disillusioned by the whole notion of God when I was the ripe old age of 5. It went something like this, "there is no Santa? that means that there is no Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, or Jesus". Because I was always a little math & science geek, the older I got the more convinced I became that the creation of the earth and subsequent life thereupon was more rationally explained by science than religion. Keep in mind that I am DEEP in the Bible Belt so there was never any shortage of people willing to discuss this with me if for no other reason than to try to save my lost and hell bound soul. I routinely made those kids cry because they would just spout what they had been taught and didn't really understand it.
Then when I was in college, I decided that I was missing something by not having a religious tradition and tried again. The level of debate was much more sophisticated in college, but despite my taking religion classes, attending different churches with my friends, and trying to keep an open mind about what I saw, I remained unconvinced.
I have some very ugly, ugly opinions of religion that for the most part I keep to myself because I realize that they are rather inflammatory. Things like how religion is a tool of the elite to control the masses and how I blame the Catholic church and their stance on birth control for the poverty of Latin America. It gets worse, but I'll leave it at that.
However, I don't think that my own personal philosophy is the one true path and that everyone should feel the same way I do. I try to respect other people's religious beliefs as long as they respect mine. It irritates the crap out of me when people adhere to a code of conduct that they don't understand solely because someone else told them that it was a "sin". Personally, I have a moral standard that is probably higher than most Christians or at least the ones I've seen. I think that is because my moral code is mine and no one else's so I'm not looking to buck the system. Granted, mine is probably as rife with inconsistencies as the Christian one in a don't take another person's water but by all means surf the internet at work all day sort of way.
It certainly doesn't hurt to debate religion and now that I'm older and more mellow about things, I don't get as emotional about it so its less mean and more intellectual. Quartermain and I have had fun with discussing a few of these idea, or maybe I just like it when he calls me darlin'.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 16:14:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Jwlmar--
You don't understand.
God = existence
existence = God
God is not some magic man in the sky who snaps his finger and *poof* creation.
God is not something external. God is. That's it.
Do you understand the distinction between "Being" and "beings?" We, rocks, trees, water, planets, galaxies, atoms, etc. are beings. We are things that are. God is Being, the principle of existence.
God is existence, therefore everything that exists exists in God. God cannot be separated from the universe because the universe exists in God and God is the ground of Being in which the universe exists. Since God is existence in all of its forms, God is Being, Non-Being (Chaos), and Becoming (evolution).
Why can't the universe, chaos, and evolution exist without a God being mixed in? Well, how would they exist without existence?
Perhaps your mind is too confined by traditionalist Judeo-Christian thought? Study Kabbalah or read Spinoza, and you get to a closer idea of what God is.
Submitted by jwlmar10 (user info) at 2003-04-30 15:58:42 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"What if God, the universe, chaos, evolution, all of these things were one and the same?"
These things, by definition are not one and the same. Evolution is not the same thing as the universe. I think you meant that God is somehow part of the essence of all of these things, the one responsible for it's existence, but not necessarily the creator in the sense that most would believe.
I just don't understand why God has to be a part of this picture. Why does a God have to be present in some form? Why can't it just be the universe, chaos, and evolution, instead of the universe, chaos, evolution, and GOD? What is the purpose of this God? Why is a God necessary for all of these things? These are the questions that must be asked.
Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2003-04-30 15:09:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
***but do you believe that the Bible was deliberately planned and revealed by God, and that the Bible is the only source of revelation?***
In a word: yes
I've had this discussion with Loki before.
http://www.ubersite.com/cgi-bin/message_get.cgi?message=1051024510627929358
the short version: I'm not a big name-calling, hell-consigning type. My faith is fairly quiet and personal.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 14:41:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Quartemain:
I know you're a Christian, but do you believe that the Bible was deliberately planned and revealed by God, and that the Bible is the only source of revelation?
Myself, I believe the Bible was inspired by God, but in the way Keats was inspired by a nightengale or Yeats by Maud Gonne. The originators of the Bible were no doubt attempting to convey a real experience of the divine as they understood it, and they could only do so by means of myth--metaphor--allegory.
I believe the Bible contains truth about God, but there is so much in it--like commands from God to the Israelites to exterminate and enslave other peoples--that just cannot be of God. I believe the Qur'an, the Upanishads, the Vedas, etc. are likewise inspired by God, but in different ways. It doesn't matter that they are contradictory, because human beings are finite, fallible, and contradictory.
If that makes me a relativist and a heathen, so be it.
Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:57:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't know if God can be classified as a 'person' per se, but I do agree that it was He that was responsible for the Bible.
Submitted by tartpumper (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:48:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
The person who wrote the bible made that up y'know
Submitted by Quartermain (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:46:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
If, like has been said, you can tell the artists work from the sweep of his brush, you don't need drugs to see God, all you need to do is walk outside and open your eyes.
'The earth is the LORD's, and all its fullness, the world and those who dwell therein. For He has founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the waters.'
Submitted by tartpumper (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:43:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I can see what you mean, Im not saying your wrong because whatever anyone thinks about this will more than likely be wrong. This post is about belief rather than a real answer because....well....there is no real answer....yet
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:43:35 EDT (#)
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Jwlmar--
What if God, the universe, chaos, evolution, all of these things were one and the same? I don't believe God created the universe: I'm more a pantheist than anything else.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:41:20 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Genocide--
Yes, "sound" does not exist without a tympanum to perceive it. However, what does the tympanum perceive? Vibrations in a medium. The medium exists. The vibrations occur. Therefore, the objective thing of which sound is the subjective quality exists, regardless of anyone being around to hear it.
You're talking about an anthropomorphic god, like Zeus or Yahweh: a personal god who acts like a king over men. Such a god needs to be believed in or else its existence is meaningless. But, what about an Aristotelian or Spinozan God, a God that IS existence? As I said, existence exists whether you believe it does or not. If I were to believe you don't exist, it would affect your objective reality in the slightest.
Of course, we could get all Kantian and go into noumena and phenomena, but I haven't had lunch yet.
Submitted by jwlmar10 (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:39:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't believe in any form of God. One must ask themselves, "If God created the big bang, how was God created?" Some would say that God has always existed, but if this is the case, then why couldn't the universe have always existed? I believe that chaos is the higher power that people don't understand. Our universe is simply a coincidence. A seemingly ordered place amidst a sea of chaos. Just as one can indefinitely write random numbers and eventually create some sort of order on accident among the numbers, our universe is merely a complex ordered unit that happens to actually be random. I think I'm rambling, but hopefully you will understand what I'm trying to say.
Submitted by tartpumper (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:29:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Well you guys are going really in depth here. I dont believe in God at all, its just a myth that people made up so people dont wrong each other, which isnt a bad thing. My problem is we are brought up all our lives to believe in Father Xmas which we found out doesnt exist, then Noah's Ark which never happened and then Adam and Eve. We then find out we came from chimps. This proves that nobody has a blind clue what the fuck is going on at all. Most of what you have been told through your(especially in the bible) is utter bullshit
Submitted by oddzandendz (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:26:01 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Murphy.....MDMA can open door in your perception, true. Have you ever endulged in Ketamine? That shit can change your religion in ways un imaginable to non users. I'm a K enthusiast myself. I used to think that mushrooms were the key to spiritual enlightenment, but K is the cats ass
Submitted by GenocideTickles (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:24:10 EDT (#)
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So what about the Zen idea that the mind is the maker? They believe in a higher power, but say that all existence (including that of the higher power) can attributed to your perception. If you believe in God, fine, then he exsists for you. If you don't, then it is like anything else you don't believe in, just absence.
Take for instance, the question "If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" Scientifically, No. You see, sound is the audible perception of sound waves traveling through a medium. So you see there is no sound, because no one is there to hear it. There may be sound waves, but even that is debatable. The sound waves only exsists because of the medium they travel through, the earth's atmosphere, the other trees, etc. In space there is no sound. I know some of you are going to say, but what about the astronauts, how do they communicate? They communicate because the shuttle, their clothing, everything they bring with them, including their ears are there to take in/reflect sound. But in true space, where there are no object present, there is no sound. Without a human mind to perceive sound (or God), there is an abscense of both.
God is much the same way, in the absence of belief, he does not exsist. God only exsists because of his mutual dependence on humanity - without people to assert his power and ominscence, he loses his power - because look at it this way, assume he still "wields" his power, what does he wield over? Nothingness? (see my post on nothingness for this -"We're all travelers of Time and Space). Perhaps my earlier question should have been "What happens the the exsistence of God in the absence of humanity? In the absence of all things tangible? Intangible?
To put it in pop culture terms: Remember the kid who bent the spoon with his mind in "The Matrix?" Well the kid was not bending the spoon. There was no physical change occuring the spoon at all. The child simply convinced himself that the spoon did no exsist. Once he did that he could take away its concrete, finite, structural definition and redifine it's exsistence.
If you can answer this question than you can answer whether or not God exsists:
What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:24:06 EDT (#)
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Hey, Murphy:
Great insights, man.
The fact that anything exists at all suggests that something had to bring it into being, but it's impossible for something to come out of nothing. The big bang had to bang from somewhere: where did that infinitely compressed point of matter come from, and what triggered the explosion?
I think Hegel was on to something when he suggested that the universe and history is God coming to understand Godself. We are all part of God, exploring our existence, and everything we do, everything that exists is part of the exploration of what can exist, and our lives all contribute to the collective self-understanding.
But that still leaves us with where God came from and why God needs to learn about Godself. And, as you say, the only answer we can give is "I don't know."
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:17:03 EDT (#)
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Oddz:
It's hard to put into words.
I believe that God is the principle of existence, and that includes love. We exist better and live more abundantly if we open up our lives to other people in love. The more and deeper you love, the more and deeper you experience God. Thus, if you cut yourself off from love by turning to apathy or hate, and cause pain and death, you are cutting yourself off from love and from life.
Theologians always say that hell is the absense of God and that God doesn't send anyone to hell, we send ourselves there. Maybe there's a grain of truth in it? Maybe hell is the state of an individual sole having cut itself off from the Whole, from the love that God is?
Submitted by Murphy1844 (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:11:15 EDT (#)
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Good post, Parth.
We've got two possibilities here in terms of where everything came from. The first is that something arrived from nothing, exploded, evolved, and here we are. The second being some sort of intelligent force behind the creation of the universe. Of course, one would ask where this intelligent being came from. What before it? An answer to that which makes sense is that perhaps this intelligent force (God) CREATED TIME. We think in terms of time. What before this, before that, etc. If God, or this intelligent force created time, than naturally this force was always there.
Let's pretend this is the case.
I was thiking last night about the parellel between the structure of an atom, and the structure of our solar system. An atom has a proton & nutron at its nucleous with one or more electrons, significantly smaller in size compartively, orbiting about the nucleous which is larger in mass. Now take a look at our plants/moon orbiting about the nucleous (our sun) in this solar system. Draw it on paper. What a parallel!! So, we've got the same sort of physics, if you will, that apply in a turbo-micro sense (atoms) and a turbo macro sense (solar system, universe, etc). It seems that, noticing these patterns, there just had to be something that created this. Some sort of intelligent designer behind all of this.
Here's another one (thinking about this last night too). How intelligent are we humans? We look at cell phones and computers and think we're pretty damn smart. We've harnessed electricity and radio waves. We're pretty smart, huh? No. Let's take a look at a very simple function that occurs in nature. A blade of grass growing. Can we duplicate this very simple function that happens in nature in one of our laboratories? In a sense, creat an artificial blade of grass from silicon or something that splits cells, grows, and reproduces? We can't. We think we're so smart to have high-speed computers and digital cell phones yet we can not even fathom duplicating a VERY SIMPLE function that happens regularly in nature. More evidence for something much more intelligent that we? Perhaps.
Assuming that there is a higher power, what would this higher power's motivation be to create a universe? Some people assume that God created man in HIS IMAGE. I disagree. I think we create God in our image (I ripped this idea off of C. Jung, by the way). An African tribe probably assumes that God is a skinny black man/women with a bunch of flys orbiting its face and plates in his lip! I look at a potential God as something much more superior to we humans. I don't think God experiences the same emotions we do: jealousy, hate, envy, pride, etc. These are mortal things... and many of which are a result of fear. Fear of the unknown. God knows everything, so I would assume that he does not have this same attributes as do we humans.
Maybe God created the universe as an experiment to see if it could sustain itself. I can't help thinking of Bart. Ubersite was created, from my understanding, as an experiment to see if a website could sustain itself and grow (unless he was being sarcastic). Who knows.
In terms of spiritual experiences... I've had several. And all of them happened when I was high on MDMA. Maybe those chemicals unlocked a door and what I experienced was some sort of divine energy that is not accessable to me when I'm sober. Or maybe the whole experience was inspired by a chemical reaction.
The whole point in this post is to express this humble phrase: I don't know.
Murphy
Submitted by oddzandendz (user info) at 2003-04-30 12:09:19 EDT (#)
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Partholon.....I think that if G-d dis apporves of one of his peoples actions (at the murderous level) then he would probably 'disown' that person to some extent.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:57:00 EDT (#)
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Oddzandends:
I'm not sure God "thinks" at all.
Let's say somebody kills a gay man, blows up an abortion clinic, or flies a plane into a skyscraper because he believes God or Jesus or Allah or Somebody wants him to.
I don't believe God has "thoughts" or "feelings" or anything like that. I don't think God can be treated like a person at all. They certainly won't be rewarded, but I don't think they'll be punished, either. The only punishment, I think, would be the harm they inflict on themselves and on the human community, in the way that their actions inhibit the expression of love and knowledge, how they cut themselves off from that love and knowledge by their violence.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:50:32 EDT (#)
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Genocide:
Spinoza explained it thusly:
God's essense and existence are existence itself. God is what existence is: if something exists, it is part of God. Your own existence is a fact, a finite and historical one, but a fact nonetheless. Your existence is also independent of my belief. If I for some reason became convinced that you do not exist, you would still exist regardless.
Likewise, let's pretend everyone in the world suddenly became convinced that God does not exist--I'll ignore the important question of "Whose god?" If God is existence itself and is the sole necessary and free cause of being--the sole and infinite Substance--then it is irrelevant what anything that exists within that Substance thinks about it. God would continue to exist since God, if God is existence itself, can't not exist, or we too would cease to exist. Since God is infinite and unchanging, that cannot happen, therefore we too would continue to exist.
Take air, for example. I'm breathing now. I can't see air, so I conclude that it doesn't exist. My lack of belief in air doesn't affect either the air or myself.
Submitted by oddzandendz (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:46:46 EDT (#)
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"If tomorrow, everyone lost their faith and all knowledge of God was wiped from the earth. What is God? "
A: Pissed off and sending another flood
Submitted by PopNFresh (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:46:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
can't say i believe in a god
but if i'm wrong i'm totally fucked .... but then again if i don't believe in 'god' adn he sends me away i don't believe in a 'devil' either so i'm cool with him too
i guess i'll have roam the world haunting teenage girls when they least expect it .... in the SHOWER!!!!
Submitted by tartpumper (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:41:06 EDT (#)
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There must be some reason for us existing. Otherwise whats the point? Whats the pount in creating a massive universe with all the equilibrium (spelling - I know) and animals and people and then not telling us why? WHY?!
Submitted by shortgerbal (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:40:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
didn't kick any ass so to speak, but was something interesting to think about.
I am a Luthern and have been raised in the church. at times i don't really know what i believe, but i have to think that there is something greater than ourselves cause i find it really hard to believe out of the entire universe we just happened to to come into existance. i guess i am more liberal than most religious people but that's probably because i am always questioning my own faith. hmmm... i am not sure if that really covered anything you were looking for but there it is. In a way, i think that i go to church more for the people in my youth group than for any serman (sermen?). ahhhh. yeah, i shut up now.
Submitted by GenocideTickles (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:36:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
I ask you: What happens to the exsistence of God in the absence of faith?
If tomorrow, everyone lost their faith and all knowledge of God was wiped from the earth. What is God?
Submitted by oddzandendz (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:27:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I am Anglican-christian by birth, but my opinions on G-d change day to day. I wonder, with all the supposed 'gods' being worshiped around the world, would 'allah' (or whoever the fucking islamic jihad fucknuts are fighting for) REALLY like to see me die in a terrorists bombing? Supposedly Christ loves all of his children and is forgiving of those who do not follow his path. Would the same be true the Islamic creator, or is he as spiteful as (some) would make him out to be?
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:23:32 EDT (#)
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OK, I figured it out:
By clicking "My Account" and then "Profile," I was able to add my username in the "First name" field. Presumably, both my original submissions and replies will now read "Partholon."
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:19:39 EDT (#)
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Tartpumper:
Why does there have to be a reason for existence? We simply do. If we exist for any reason, it is to actualize our potential and use the powers and abilities we possess: to know and to love. I don't see why it has to be more complicated than that.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:17:43 EDT (#)
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NicTheMaster:
I will overlook your rudeness, and your apparent inability to read for comprehension. I thought I had explained below--if you had taken the time to read the responses--that I was puzzled why my username did not appear on the top of the message. To my knowledge, I have not posted any religious rants, since I myself am not "religious."
You can't tell God to "fuck off" because God is not Something that can be talked to: God does not possess intellect or will as we understand it. Read your Spinoza, my friend.
Submitted by tartpumper (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:12:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Yeh but Nic why are we here? Thats the question. What do you think?
Submitted by NicTheMaster (user info) at 2003-04-30 11:09:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Is this from the same matey who kept on posting random religious rants a couple of weeks ago?
If so, and this is your "backdoor" to finding out the spiritual health and/or well-being of the world's youth, may I take this oportunity to ask you and your God(or,"This feeling of power or love" as you describe it) to fuck right off.
As you were.............
Submitted by poisonyourkids (user info) at 2003-04-30 10:47:57 EDT (#)
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I believe in myself...so...ummm..yeah i guess so...
Submitted by tartpumper (user info) at 2003-04-30 10:47:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I just dont have a clue what its all about, why were here, if theres a god, why am I me and not you etc. so until somebody tells me I cant believe anything. The funny thing is, no one person in the whole world knows why were here etc but we are all gonna die not knowing. Quite annoying really.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2003-04-30 10:46:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I believe that the earth was created in seven 24 hour days approximately 4,000 years ago by a deity commonly known as God. I believe that homosexuals, social drinkers, smokers, drug users, Democrats, and people who don't realize that they can't sing and do so anyway, will burn forever in the fiery pits of hell. I believe that everything that Dante and Milton wrote was true. I believe that Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, and anyone not born in one of the Confederate States is also doomed to spend eternity in hell. I believe that man was made in God's own image and that women are a inferior model necessary for the propagation of the species and as Freud said, only good for sex and knitting. I believe that Jews killed Jesus and for that they are also condemned to hell, but I support Israel in all cases because even though they are condemned to hell they are still God's Chosen People.
One more thing, If the King James Bible was good enough for Saint Peter then it's good enough for me.
AND the phrase, "submitting graciously" gives me an odd tingling sensation that I can't quite explain, but I find it rather intriguing.
Submitted by Partholon (user info) at 2003-04-30 10:32:03 EDT (#)
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Why didn't my username come up when I posted this?