I don't bow my head (1356 hits)
Category: GeneralLabels: nonfiction
Rating: 1.55 on 45 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by scourgeoftheseas (View user info) at 2005-11-22 14:08:35 EST
My breath caught in my throat. This is one of those things that you see in print, hear about and never connect to reality. One of those things that you think you understand. Then it happens to you and you realize you were wrong.
You try to draw the air into your throat, your lungs, and it won't come. It stops. Funny, such an ephemeral substance, air. Nitrogen, oxygen, some trace elements and compounds. Nothing of any real tangible substance, yet it can choke you.
Funny.
When it happens, my throat closes, the wall of my chest constrict, muscles grabbing each other, furthering the stranglehold. Tears never quite form, but if I was forced to speak, they would flow.
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I had abandoned my parents religion a long time since.
I believe that when we go, it's back to the dirt. This gives me a comfort that the religious don't seem to understand.
Still, the words, the symbolism...talk about meeting again, about the happiness that is gained through this final release...these things can move me. I gain comfort, but I don't have the faith necessary to believe them.
I feel like a hypocrite.
I should hold on to what my rational mind tells me. But what my rational mind tells me was a cold path when it intersected with MY reality.
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When I first started to question religion, I was eight or nine. We had revitalized a church in a little bumfuck town about forty minutes away and were trying to reestablish a congregation there. Like most kids I spent as much time staring at the ceiling as anything else during the services, letting my mind wander.
The ceiling was about twenty-five feet high at its peak. Right in the intersection of the ceiling there was a dime sized hole. A nest of wasps had established their hive inside the space.
One early Sunday morning one of these insects was fighting a huge cicada. I was completely engrossed in watching the little death battle play out above me and didn't hear the preach tell everyone to bow their heads and pray.
"Matt, BOW YOUR HEAD! You're disrespecting me, everyone here, and God."
I looked up and he was glaring at me. So was everyone else.
Why would some God allow his messenger to speak to a child like that? Allow him to try and shame me in front of a group of people? And then my mind spun off, as I bowed my head, red-faced, in the way that an eight year olds mind will spin off...
Why does God want subservience from us? This posture of humility and shame when we speak to him? This mans words were of no impact to me. I was watching what was surely part of the greater universal whole, marveling at it and gaining some understanding from it in the way that kids seem to gain a little wisdom from meaningless shit...Surely this had greater importance than what this man, this rude fuck, was saying.
Nothing really profound, I was only eight. But it was a seed that would grow. And I quit bowing my head in church.
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The night my brother was murdered, after we left the hospital and everyone went home, I went into my father's room. He was laying there in the dark, breathing, not crying, just breathing. His eyes were closed, but I could tell that he was awake.
I'm not sure why I said it. Maybe to offer him some of the comfort that I wasn't going to be able to find. Maybe to show him that though I believed he was wrong, I wanted him to be right. At least for his own sake, if not mine. I honestly don't know.
"Can't you take comfort that he's with your god now?"
There was a pause.
"I don't care. I want him here with me."
That was all. It was earth shattering. To me this was basically a revocation of his faith. I have no religion, but I respect, I understand, the comfort that it brings people. The comfort that was no longer there for my father.
I'm a proud man. I've worked hard my whole life. I've always tried to treat people well. I am not going to be subservient to anybody. I am where I am because of what I have done, how I have lived my life. I don't bow my head.
User Reviews
Submitted by Brdn_Nkd (user info) at 2007-07-26 14:10:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I remember reading this and not really knowing how to respond so just didn't. it's well written and I understand what you're saying. I think we briefly discussed religion when we met.
Sometimes I wonder if I do my son a disservice by not participating in some kind of church. I grew up in a catholic family that was very involved in the church. And while I can't embrace organised religion I can embrace and acknowledge all the benefits of being a part of that community offer. Ultimately I hope my boy explores faith, church, religion, on his own and draws his own conclusions.
For me, when I'm out and about enjoying nature I can't help but believe that there is a god and that there is some purpose for our existence. I can't embrace organized religion because of some of the inherent hipocracies that seem to come with it. I will never believe that one denomination has it all right and the rest are fucked because they don't kneel for certain prayers or because they celebrate Chanaka (however the hell you spel it) instead of Christmas. I will not believe that some people are just not allowed to worship or believe because they're different. eh, whatever. this can be an entertaining discussion over beers as long as people can keep cool. many hardcore christians cannot do it.
Submitted by ghola (user info) at 2007-05-18 13:01:20 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
No Comment
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2007-02-18 20:40:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2006-10-31 22:39:30 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I've had it up to here with your shennanigans, I'm going through and -2ing ALL of your posts!
Submitted by UnderOathMeal (user info) at 2006-10-27 14:31:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I LOVE MYSELF!!
SIGNED,
SCOURGEY
Submitted by UnderOathMeal (user info) at 2006-10-27 13:54:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by scourge (user info) at 2006-10-27 13:39:58 (#)
Ranking: -2
http://www.ubersite.com/m/95020#2202073
banning attempt
Submitted by Sacrilicious (user info) at 2006-10-15 08:50:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Of all the posts of yours I hadn't read before, and I didn't think there were any..I can't I believe missed this one.
Being forced to bow your head instead of watching the wasp and the cicada is an absolutely perfect analogy for how churchgoers could better spend their time appreciating their god's universe.
What a great post.
Submitted by MistressFist (user info) at 2006-01-18 12:37:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I'm a proud man. I've worked hard my whole life. I've always tried to treat people well. I am not going to be subservient to anybody. I am where I am because of what I have done, how I have lived my life. I don't bow my head.
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Yes.
Submitted by simple_catalyst (user info) at 2006-01-18 12:27:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
me neither.
Submitted by minimumdino (user info) at 2006-01-11 19:53:01 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
i have a lot of friends
Submitted by scourge (user info) at 2005-12-21 10:14:07 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2005-12-21 10:06:21 (#)
Ranking: 2
...the thing is too, if a believer had said "he's with god now" instead of a non-believer saying your god his dad probably would've said the same thing, that he wants him here...
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True sentence. rad is just pissy because he thought I was bashing his God, I guess.
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2005-12-21 10:06:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
i think it's an understandable thing to say. when shit goes really wrong you do want to ask ok things like so where's god now? your parents are the ones who instill a sense or lack of faith in you. when you see them break you wonder what it really meant to them after all. the thing is too, if a believer had said "he's with god now" instead of a non-believer saying your god his dad probably would've said the same thing, that he wants him here. faith or lack of doesn't really change a reaction someone will have to tragedy. besides, what exactly is the right thing to say in that situation? i'm sorry? nothing would really work anyway.
Submitted by scourge (user info) at 2005-12-21 09:51:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-12-20 03:36:32 (#)
Ranking: -2
what a thing to say to your dad.
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I think you don't understand where I was coming from. My shortcomings as a writer prevent mne from putting across what I felt like at the time and what he felt like.
My father is a deeply religious person. He draws a lot of comfort from his religion, he believes very deeply in his religion. Saying what I did wasn't meant to wound him. It was meant to help, to remind him of the comfort that he was able to draw on in his life.
For whatever it's worth, and that's not much here on Uber, I have a lot of respect for my dad. He is a person whose religion has allowed to be a better human. I respect the good things that religion can do for people, I respect people who use their religious convictions to help make life on the planet better for other people.
I wouldn't purposefully offend him with negative commentary against his beliefs. This comment didn't affect him that way. I wasn't bashing him or his religion. He understood that.
You didn't.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-12-20 03:36:32 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
what a thing to say to your dad.
Submitted by MrSparkle847 (user info) at 2005-12-20 03:22:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Goddamn preachers. That's why our pastor of several years at our church was so cool; she didn't dig bullying people into religion. Hell, it used to be that for a while, for workers who couldn't make it to church on Sunday for whatever reason, there was an informal service on Wednesday nights. Not that the Sunday services were very formal, either; I wore my usual wardrobe when I was there, though I tried to keep the sayings on the witty t-shirts safe (i.e., never wear "I left the house for this?!?").
The pastor was great. It's the old stale people who couldn't take anyone but a white, male pastor who wouldn't allow new interpretations of hymns and such, that fucked everything up. They were the reason there was tension (and there was a lot of it); they essentially believed that church was not a place for kids (although I hate kids, at church I think it's immoral to not tolerate them), and neither was it a place for people of dysfunctional backgrounds.
Even so, I sorta went sour on religion. My dad had my sister and I going to church since we were born, and it was really easy believing in what we were told about Jesus and God, because we were young and impressionable, but as I aged and watched as one family be robbed of one of the most effervescent and faithful women in the world by brain cancer, I lost a little bit of faith. One of my father's friends, one of the best natured men you could ever hope to meet, lost his brother to a car accident; I lost a little more. My grandfather, finally laid to rest, but only after years of suffering through Alzheimers, lost me a little more. 9/11? A little more lost.
So now, I just don't know what to believe.
Submitted by Snark (user info) at 2005-12-20 02:43:31 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I could write a novel with the reasons why I identify with this.
Submitted by scourge (user info) at 2005-12-01 16:23:16 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by Ejryuu (user info) at 2005-12-01 16:00:48 (#)
Ranking: 2
So who won the battle of the insects?
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Wasp did man. David and Goliath shit, except he dropped the fucker trying to drag it into the hole.
Submitted by Ejryuu (user info) at 2005-12-01 16:00:48 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
So who won the battle of the insects?
Submitted by Maddog (user info) at 2005-11-26 11:27:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
As a fallen Catholic, I certainly can agree.
Submitted by TheSunGod (user info) at 2005-11-26 11:19:28 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
sum persona non serviam- i am one who will not serve.
god doesn't ask us for deference or head bowing, it'd be pointless and a meaningless gesture. if there is a higher being, our subserviance would be even less significant than an ant lowering his antennae every time a human walked by.
we are subservient in that we are born, we live, we die- it is all that god asks and we do it all pretty well.
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2005-11-26 10:52:17 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by scourge (user info) at 2005-11-23 16:34:57 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2005-11-23 15:07:07 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by mbstateside (user info) at 2005-11-23 14:32:18 (#)
Ranking: 2
We should go out we have soooooooooooooooooo much in common.
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Sounds good to me. You around these parts (central IL)?
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Where in Central IL? Just curious because I'm in Springfield.
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Peoria area, scourge. Drop me a line at dsvmusic@yahoo if you're ever up in the area.
Submitted by HighVoltage900 (user info) at 2005-11-23 14:11:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I have only just become a register Uber member, but I read this earlier and wanted to review it. Couldn't find it and now I am glad it resurfaced.
This is a great example of the path of atheism (have you progressed that far?). Having originally been Catholic and now am atheist what you wrote speaks out and is very accurate. It is people like you who I laugh with when religious people use their circular logic to reinforce their arguements. IE. God exists because the bible exists. Well who wrote the bible? Men. Who told the men to write the bible? God.
Submitted by Muiro (user info) at 2005-11-23 13:59:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Flying_buttmonkey (user info) at 2005-11-23 07:30:08 (#)
Ranking: 2
You know I'd love to get a caveman and a devout Christian in a room together (after you'd taught the caveman to speak and given him a bath and junk) and just watch that caveman laugh his ass off.
Or get pissed off. Considering that God is supposed to have existed forever, why did he wait until we could write before people noticed? If I was a caveman, that'd piss me off. If he loves puppies and kittens, why not monkey men? Why did the miracles all seem to coincide with a certain time period in a certain part of the world?
If he's everywhere, as were humans back then, why is the bible all set in the same place? Why aren't there other versions of the bible in other countries? Huh?
HUH???
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I hate to sound like I'm pointing out the flaws of your statement but haven't you ever noticed that the powerful similarities with all of the religious texts and stories? The Bible, Queran and Torah (sp) share a great deal of the same stories. Now, some will use this information to prove that there is only one God, but seems likely enough to me that every religion borrows from eachother's myths.
I propose we moved this discussion to http://www.ubersite.com/m/79487
Submitted by Flying_buttmonkey (user info) at 2005-11-23 07:30:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
You know I'd love to get a caveman and a devout Christian in a room together (after you'd taught the caveman to speak and given him a bath and junk) and just watch that caveman laugh his ass off.
Or get pissed off. Considering that God is supposed to have existed forever, why did he wait until we could write before people noticed? If I was a caveman, that'd piss me off. If he loves puppies and kittens, why not monkey men? Why did the miracles all seem to coincide with a certain time period in a certain part of the world?
If he's everywhere, as were humans back then, why is the bible all set in the same place? Why aren't there other versions of the bible in other countries? Huh?
HUH???
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2005-11-23 07:09:38 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by b0bbieb0b (user info) at 2005-11-22 15:02:20 (#)
Ranking: 0
Well written. Typical arrogant humanist blasphemy, but worth reading.
Nice vignette about church. Isn't it amazing that the Lord of the Universe chooses to love and work through such flawed and small-minded creatures as you and me and whoever humiliated you?
Sorrow at the pain of loss and a desire for things to be different is not the same as a revocation of faith. Whoever thinks that Christian faith is merely a comfort in times of trouble has never grappled with passages like Romans 8:17, Philippians 3:10, and 1 Peter 4:12-13.
Keep searching. "'You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,' declares the LORD."
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You can't convince me that a religion is valid by quoting from its own religious text.
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2005-11-23 07:04:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Fuck yes.
Submitted by ozzy (user info) at 2005-11-23 06:45:34 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by windowsrcold (user info) at 2005-11-22 17:12:31 (#)
Ranking: 0
I took a logical stand point on the issue. There is too much that we don't comprehend for me to establish a belief on anything. I know that the bible is the word of man and that man is flawed. I know we were all got here by some means but I don't know what that is. I have come to realize that science and religion both seek answers to the same questions just through different paths. I know I probably won't understand any better the day I die than I do now. So I believe in a higher power. No negative effects for doing so. But it helps me deal with questions that we don't have answers to. I hope we find out the truth someday
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Both the post and windowsrcold's review were well articulated and thought out.
Religion is one debate I don't like to get involved in too often. My beliefs are too rigid to be changed. (For the record I believe there is no higher power, and that although science doesn't have all the answers YET, some day it will.)
Submitted by Confuzitron (user info) at 2005-11-22 22:10:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
GO CARDINALS WHOO!!!
Submitted by bonnee (user info) at 2005-11-22 18:09:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by windowsrcold (user info) at 2005-11-22 17:12:31 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
For some people like bobbiebob who obviously likes to pass judgement on people and not be judged themselves it's very hard to understand someone who doesn't see the importance of an organized religion. I agree with some of the previous comments. It is hard to believe in something that can't be proven to my logical side. This goes for both sides though. No one has yet proven the non-existence of a higher being.
I took a logical stand point on the issue. There is too much that we don't comprehend for me to establish a belief on anything. I know that the bible is the word of man and that man is flawed. I know we were all got here by some means but I don't know what that is. I have come to realize that science and religion both seek answers to the same questions just through different paths. I know I probably won't understand any better the day I die than I do now. So I believe in a higher power. No negative effects for doing so. But it helps me deal with questions that we don't have answers to. I hope we find out the truth someday.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2005-11-22 16:51:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I was pretty young when I started doubting. Perhaps it would have been easier to have a moment defined as "the moment" but I don't. At the time, my family was mixed up with a very right wing fundamentalist church. It occurred to me over time that the people at church were just mean hearted vicious bastards that seemed smugly satisfied that they and they alone were going to heaven while everyone around them would burn forever in the fiery pits of hell.
It empowered them and made them assholes.
I think I was about 5 when I started posing questions they couldn't answer. Instead of saying that they didn't know or being honest with me about it, I got in trouble.
Submitted by punkerrjess (user info) at 2005-11-22 16:45:32 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
I never bowed my head. My mom said if I wanted to look up instead of down, that was my personal choice. Then again, I wasn't raised Christian. It is weird now, when my in-laws say grace, and I'm the only one not bowing my head.
The preacher pointing you out was fucked up.
Good read.
Submitted by scourge (user info) at 2005-11-22 16:38:22 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
bobbiebob-
Did I used to deliver newspapers to you? I had a couple who ran a church, you know, as their business and source of income, and they always gave me handwritten Bible quotes as tips. Around the holidays I got full color pamphlets. They were about as much use to me as your review. None.
Blasphemy, in this sense, would be defamation of the name of the Christian God. I would have to first believe in your god to defame him. That aside, where in here did I offer libel or slander against the hero of your creationist myth? Nowhere.
As for the allegation of arrogance on my part...Yes, I can be. In the context that you presented, once again it hinges on having a stake in your belief system. Using the term against me was a means of insult here, very nice....I, oh hell with it.
I just don't have the strength today to argue against this kind of blind allegiance to an idea, a group of stories, that should be taken for what it is. The doctrine of the Christian faith, of any faith, is mans attempt to reconcile himself with the universe. I appreciate the philosophy, the desire to learn and understood that is behind religion. Your brand of religion has lost that, once you proclaim it as the end all, be all, you shut the door to further progress down the path to understanding.
I have washed my hands of that brand of closemindedness.
I am not an atheist. I suppose if I had to put a label on myself, and I'm loathe to do so, I would be an agnostic. I have to believe what my senses tell me and what can be physically proven to me. We can only define life, clinically anyway, the existence of our ego, as the presence of electrical pulses in the body and brain. Once these stop...
Do I have a soul? I don't know. Figuratively I guess. Beyond that, it can't be proven to my senses and it can't be disproven. I have to suspend any judgment until such time as it can be.
My post was more about taking the comfort that I could from the worst situation that has ever happened in my life. Not about claiming a belief system or a lack thereof.
This was about wrestling with the question again, not answering it.
Submitted by Muiro (user info) at 2005-11-22 15:42:07 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn
Vs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism
Which is more rational to you?
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2005-11-22 15:40:19 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by Muiro (user info) at 2005-11-22 15:28:02 (#)
Ranking: 2
Life is hard for an athiest, but at least it's rational.
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Nothing in this world is rational. Anyone who tries to tell you different is either lying or trying to sell you something.
Submitted by MyTeeOne (user info) at 2005-11-22 15:36:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by Muiro (user info) at 2005-11-22 15:28:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I agree very much with this post.
It is sometimes difficult to know, through logic, that likely your consciousness will stop at the time of your death. It can bring comfort to know that your molecules were once the molecules of stars, plants, other beings and that after you die, it will be the same. Thinking that way can bring you one-ness and peace with the universe that waiting for a God to make what in my mind is a decision based on arbitrary rules about whether to send you to everlasting peace and happiness or everlasting torture (steadfast love for all his creation indeed), could never possibly come near. It might be difficult to know that it is just as likely that your molecules will go to another human being, a beautiful garden of flowers or possibly a McDonald's wrapper before the earth eventually gets swallowed by the sun and waits for a cataclysmic event to blast apart it's molecules into the cloud of dust necessary to generate more stars and planets which might lead to a greater variety of life farther into the future than our minds can imagine. Just shows you how funny the universe is.
When you don't live to appease a god, you have to live for yourself. You have to create meaning for your life and don't get told what you need to do in order to make your time here worth it. You have to chisel your place in the world out of a solid rock of confusion. Some of my Christian friends wonder how I have a moral code. Why I don't go around hurting people and doing wrong in society. Atheists have to create their own moral code, and not because of what they are dictated, it has to be decided and justified completely on our own. It is a difficult yet rewarding path.
I see the value of being faithful. Many a night have I wished I could feel this greater presence that so many people seem to know is there. I sometimes wish that I could take solace that a creator loves me and wishes only the best for me, it would make my life a great deal easier. I can't. I never could in church, so I left.
Life is hard for an athiest, but at least it's rational.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2005-11-22 15:15:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
I can relate to this, but at the same time, I can't.
Submitted by b0bbieb0b (user info) at 2005-11-22 15:02:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Well written. Typical arrogant humanist blasphemy, but worth reading.
Nice vignette about church. Isn't it amazing that the Lord of the Universe chooses to love and work through such flawed and small-minded creatures as you and me and whoever humiliated you?
Sorrow at the pain of loss and a desire for things to be different is not the same as a revocation of faith. Whoever thinks that Christian faith is merely a comfort in times of trouble has never grappled with passages like Romans 8:17, Philippians 3:10, and 1 Peter 4:12-13.
Keep searching. "'You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,' declares the LORD."
Submitted by nitty34 (user info) at 2005-11-22 14:58:54 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Very well written
Submitted by Davros (user info) at 2005-11-22 14:54:43 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
This was really good.
-Dave
Submitted by FilthyAssistant (user info) at 2005-11-22 14:54:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by Shlongy (user info) at 2005-11-22 14:49:32 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Me neither.
Submitted by jack11058 (user info) at 2005-11-22 14:39:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by windowsrcold (user info) at 2005-11-22 14:36:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Glad to see intelligence does exist on the net. Everyone finds comfort in their own way.