Time to Leave? (593 hits)
Category: Politics -> IraqRating: 0.17 on 25 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by Judoka (View user info) at 2005-11-23 07:49:08 EST
The following is excerpted from an article that appears in this months issue of Time:
"...In contrast to the Pentagon's stock answer that there are enough troops on the ground in Iraq, the commanders said [to a Senate committee] that they not only needed more manpower but also had repeatedly asked for it. Indeed, military sources told Time that as recently as August 2005, a senior military official requested more troops but got turned down flat. There are about 160,000 U.S. troops now in Iraq, a number U.S. commanders in the region plan to maintain at least through the Iraqi national assembly elections on Dec. 15. But the battalion commanders, according to sources close to last week's meeting, said that because there are not enough troops, they have to "leapfrog" around Iraq to keep insurgents from returning to towns that have been cleared out. The officers also stressed that the lack of manpower—rather than of protective armor or signal jammers—posed one of the biggest obstacles in dealing with roadside bombs, which have caused the majority of U.S. casualties in Iraq. The commanders, according to the meeting sources, said there are simply "never enough" explosives experts on the ground. So far, no officer has been willing to go on record to complain about the need for more troops. But there is one positive sign: the Army recently decided to double the number of explosives experts to 2,500 over the next few years..."
I think we can all agree at this point the Iraq war, whether you agree with it in the first place notwithstanding, has bee waged in an utterly incompetent fashion. Young American men and women are dying because of the arrogance and incompetence of this administration. United States citizens must ask themselves, "why has no one been held accountable?"
I'm willing to accept that we entered this war on bad intelligence, I personally believe that if the senators and congressmen were allowed access to the unfiltered intelligence that was available to the White House at the time there would have been a very different outcome. But there is no use in crying over spilt milk. We went to war.
Once we decided to go to war we should have fought the war with not just our superior technology but our brains as well. Clearly that is not being done now. Since we cannot continue to fight the war 'on the cheap.' We need to declare victory and begin a phased withdrawal of our troops. I said in a post or a reponse to a post long ago, when we were still in the run up to the war, that this war would only be won if we had the stomache to 'wade up to our hips in blood' We didn't have the will to do that. Therefore, we should not go into a war half assed. We still don't have the will to fight this war properly, we should think about an exit strategy.
User Reviews
Submitted by cleanfornow (user info) at 2005-12-23 09:50:35 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Must... not .... resort to... name calling.
Must...
not...
Arhgggghhh!
I hope Bart can maintain this archive. Come back in 5 or 10 years and read your own posts Judoka, and you will be embarassed by what an ....
Must....
not...
Nrrrrrrrrr!
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-11-24 08:44:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
and cuberat, calling all republicans names ruins your credibility when you wax on other issues.
how is anyone supposed to want to be a liberal weenie if you are in that camp?
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-11-24 08:43:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by cuberat (user info) at 2005-11-23 09:45:47 (#)
Ranking: 2
It's just too bad that america hasn't realized that Republican is equivalent to "incompetant" and "greedy".
The last great republican president - Abraham Lincoln. And nowadays his views would be closer to the Democrats than his own party...
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richard nixon is closer to democrat than republican these days.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-11-24 08:31:22 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by Judoka (user info) at 2005-11-23 16:48:13 (#)
Ranking: 0
I guess I could lower my IQ and do what you do, it would just take several blows to the head.
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You're right, you're not pompous.
Submitted by mles76 (user info) at 2005-11-23 16:53:50 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
pipe down
Submitted by Judoka (user info) at 2005-11-23 16:48:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Me pompous? Thats a case of the pot calling the kettle black isn't it? If orgininality is the criteron for submissions to Ubersite I think we are in trouble. My case in point is your latest bit of drivel about your personal life. That was just stunning in its orginality. No one ever laments about the state of their personal life on uber. And the post before that one was more or less what I am doing here. A commentary on events of the day. Whereas you chose to talk about a man who killed a dear, I am choosing to speak of a global conflict. I guess I could lower my IQ and do what you do, it would just take several blows to the head. And that just sounds painful. Almost as painful as reading your oh so orginal take on US Canada relations. How did you come up with that? Uber has never seen anything like that. However, if ignorant and idiotic comments were the currency of Ubersite you be doing well.
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2005-11-23 16:39:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-11-23 10:11:42 (#)
Ranking: -2
It's funny to see Americans brag about their military history when they have the biggest firepower ever seen but are ready to surrender a third world country to Neanderthals after a few thousand of their compatriots died.
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you are becoming a little too predictable, TABARNAK!!!!
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-11-23 12:02:47 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by Judoka (user info) at 2005-11-23 11:02:26 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-11-23 10:11:42 (#)
Ranking: -2
It's funny to see Americans brag about their military history when they have the biggest firepower ever seen but are ready to surrender a third world country to Neanderthals after a few thousand of their compatriots died.
Great fucking work guys. Don't shake the nest if you can't handle the stings.
And what Fabit said.
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I think you need a refresher course on English language reading comprehension. Don't worry, I'm a teacher I can recommend several ESOL programs for you. Do me a favor, save your 'witticisms' for when you fully understand the language used. I wasn't bragging about our military might, I was lamenting the fact the our might wasn't used. And since is wasn't used I don't believe we have any more buissness in Iraq.
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I understood your post you pompous prick. I know you weren't bragging about your military history, it was just a side note from me. "And what Fabit said" summed up my opinion on this.
Do us a favor, stop posting. All you ever do is repeat what's all over the headlines already.
Please resume patronizing me O teacher of all knowledge.
Submitted by TheSpook (user info) at 2005-11-23 11:20:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Judoka (user info) at 2005-11-23 10:56:42 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by TheSpook (user info) at 2005-11-23 09:01:52 (#)
Ranking: 2
SOrry but tehy are dying because we are trying to win a war of "hearts and minds" as well. If the number of explosives experts were doubled, it would help, but I think the decrease in lost American life would be incrimental.
The only way we could have significantly reduced the US casualties would have been to wage a real war and bombed the shit out of them. Which we did not do. Not by a long shot. The US hands have been virtually tied in this conflict (and rightfully so, you can't claim to try and bring democracy when you are wiping civilians out).
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Hearts and minds is a load of crap. It's that type of logic that was applied to the clusterfuck that was Vietnam. We didn't use the hearts and minds strategy in WW II. The Japanese, given the opportunity, would resist our rule over their society. We didn't give them a choice though, we demanded unconditional surrender and backed that demand up with the very credible threat of force. Instead of lurching from one half assed policy to another we need a coherent plan. Defeat the Iraqis completely, occupy their country with every solider we can gather, and then rebuild their country into a functioning democracy. It seemed to work with the Japanese and the Germans. And we certainly haven't regretted that decision.
You forget, we are there to "liberate" them. This is not like the Vietnam war. In Vietnam we had full political interest and zero economic interest. Vietnam was a country with nothing: huts and jungles. Iraq has a giant oil bubble beneath it and is constantly pumping out the sweet crude. We're not going to go in and firebomb every man, woman, and child in the country or we'd be nothing more than the Nazis attempting to take over the world. We want to harness the power of their economy.
The only way this war is like 'Nam is the poor/rushed planning and putting out fires method of management. Poor leadership is to blame and the frustration and harsh comments by our kind Vice President are proving it.
Submitted by Judoka (user info) at 2005-11-23 11:02:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-11-23 10:11:42 (#)
Ranking: -2
It's funny to see Americans brag about their military history when they have the biggest firepower ever seen but are ready to surrender a third world country to Neanderthals after a few thousand of their compatriots died.
Great fucking work guys. Don't shake the nest if you can't handle the stings.
And what Fabit said.
*************************************************************************************************
I think you need a refresher course on English language reading comprehension. Don't worry, I'm a teacher I can recommend several ESOL programs for you. Do me a favor, save your 'witticisms' for when you fully understand the language used. I wasn't bragging about our military might, I was lamenting the fact the our might wasn't used. And since is wasn't used I don't believe we have any more buissness in Iraq.
Submitted by Judoka (user info) at 2005-11-23 10:56:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by TheSpook (user info) at 2005-11-23 09:01:52 (#)
Ranking: 2
SOrry but tehy are dying because we are trying to win a war of "hearts and minds" as well. If the number of explosives experts were doubled, it would help, but I think the decrease in lost American life would be incrimental.
The only way we could have significantly reduced the US casualties would have been to wage a real war and bombed the shit out of them. Which we did not do. Not by a long shot. The US hands have been virtually tied in this conflict (and rightfully so, you can't claim to try and bring democracy when you are wiping civilians out).
***************************************************************************************************
Hearts and minds is a load of crap. It's that type of logic that was applied to the clusterfuck that was Vietnam. We didn't use the hearts and minds strategy in WW II. The Japanese, given the opportunity, would resist our rule over their society. We didn't give them a choice though, we demanded unconditional surrender and backed that demand up with the very credible threat of force. Instead of lurching from one half assed policy to another we need a coherent plan. Defeat the Iraqis completely, occupy their country with every solider we can gather, and then rebuild their country into a functioning democracy. It seemed to work with the Japanese and the Germans. And we certainly haven't regretted that decision.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-11-23 10:14:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Stuch (user info) at 2005-11-23 08:01:54 (#)
Ranking: 1
Richard "Satan" Nixon: "We leave Vietnam, not out of weakness, but out of strength."
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Translation: We're getting our ass kicked and the people can't handle it.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2005-11-23 10:11:42 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
It's funny to see Americans brag about their military history when they have the biggest firepower ever seen but are ready to surrender a third world country to Neanderthals after a few thousand of their compatriots died.
Great fucking work guys. Don't shake the nest if you can't handle the stings.
And what Fabit said.
Submitted by cuberat (user info) at 2005-11-23 09:45:47 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
It's just too bad that america hasn't realized that Republican is equivalent to "incompetant" and "greedy".
The last great republican president - Abraham Lincoln. And nowadays his views would be closer to the Democrats than his own party...
Submitted by WildcatMcGee (user info) at 2005-11-23 09:06:50 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I agree with your comments on the incompetent 'strategies' in this war(if strategy is even the proper word), but I think it doesn't help that the government doesn't supply the men they will likely blame for not 'winning' with enough troops.
Also, I wanted to say thank you for the post about George R.R. Martin's books. I started The Game of Thrones last Thursday night and am already 300 or so pages in. Fucking incredible story so far. He's got a real way of creating nonexistent things and making them seem entirely plausible all while weaving a tale that draws you in further and further. However, as I've been reading I noticed that he doesn't keep the same tone in the characters language throughout. It seems as though some of the sentences are based off of today's colloquialisms while others are of obviously older origin, especially when he uses profanity with some of the characters. I was wondering if you noticed this as well?
Submitted by TheSpook (user info) at 2005-11-23 09:01:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2005-11-23 08:32:01 (#)
Ranking: 1
I think we can all agree at this point the Iraq war, whether you agree with it in the first place notwithstanding, has bee waged in an utterly incompetent fashion. Young American men and women are dying because of the arrogance and incompetence of this administration.
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SOrry but tehy are dying because we are trying to win a war of "hearts and minds" as well. If the number of explosives experts were doubled, it would help, but I think the decrease in lost American life would be incrimental.
The only way we could have significantly reduced the US casualties would have been to wage a real war and bombed the shit out of them. Which we did not do. Not by a long shot. The US hands have been virtually tied in this conflict (and rightfully so, you can't claim to try and bring democracy when you are wiping civilians out).
Typical blame shifting response. Doesn't suprise me one bit.
If we did bomb the shit out of them, they're wouldn't be much left to salvage. We're not fighting this war WWII destroy everything style since this is a war based mainly on economic interest. The more we destroy, the more we rebuild, the longer we're there. I can't really point fingers in this war, but I would say bad leadership is the cause of most problems.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2005-11-23 08:51:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I'm at a loss for what do to now. I was against this whole debacle from the beginning. I would like to say that watching it unfold exactly as I predicted left me feeling smug and superior, but I just don't, not with this many lives permanently lost or destroyed.
What do we do now though?
a. Stay and continue limping along watching the US and civilian death count continue to grow.
b. leave and watch the place get plunged into a civil war, oh wait they're already plunged into a civil war
c. turn the place back over to Saddam
I mean damn now what?
Submitted by Fabit (user info) at 2005-11-23 08:37:23 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2005-11-23 07:54:05 (#)
Ranking: -1
No mate. It's not just about America you know.
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I think what my esteemed colleague was trying to say was that it's not just about America - it's about the Iraqis as well. If we (All countries involved) want to go in and "Liberate" them then we should take responsibility and stay there and support them at least until they are able to look after themselves again. They aren't there yet. So we have to stay there. Simple.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2005-11-23 08:32:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
I think we can all agree at this point the Iraq war, whether you agree with it in the first place notwithstanding, has bee waged in an utterly incompetent fashion. Young American men and women are dying because of the arrogance and incompetence of this administration.
--------------------------------------------
SOrry but tehy are dying because we are trying to win a war of "hearts and minds" as well. If the number of explosives experts were doubled, it would help, but I think the decrease in lost American life would be incrimental.
The only way we could have significantly reduced the US casualties would have been to wage a real war and bombed the shit out of them. Which we did not do. Not by a long shot. The US hands have been virtually tied in this conflict (and rightfully so, you can't claim to try and bring democracy when you are wiping civilians out).
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2005-11-23 08:17:00 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
we are all fuxx0red
and since when was an unethical politician 'satan'?
Submitted by zakalwe (user info) at 2005-11-23 08:08:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
this is so fucked. just up and leaving would make a mockery of everything attempted over the last two years, but staying is just making things worse too.
it's like the worst Hobson's choice ever.
Submitted by Judoka (user info) at 2005-11-23 08:06:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2005-11-23 07:54:05 (#)
Ranking: -1
No mate. It's not just about America you know.
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Since I happen to be an American, writing as an American citizen, I know from my extensive education that I have zero influence of what other countries armed forces do. Therefore I concluded that you are being willfully ingnorant, or even more depressing you don't understand why my country is called the United States and yours the United Kingdom. You see even though they look similar when they are written down. In fact they are two very different countries. In short, I'll use British slang so I know my message will be received loud and clear, piss off.
Submitted by nate (user info) at 2005-11-23 08:03:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
There's a time and place for everything. "Leave no drop behind"
Submitted by Stuch (user info) at 2005-11-23 08:01:54 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Richard "Satan" Nixon: "We leave Vietnam, not out of weakness, but out of strength."
Or words to that effect.
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2005-11-23 07:54:05 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
No mate. It's not just about America you know.