An Osama Bin Laden Speech Bush Doesn't Want You To Read (3609 hits)
Category: Politics -> IraqRating: 0.33 on 210 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (View user info) at 2006-01-04 15:59:02 EST
If you're going to listen to the constant parroting of 'terrorism' from the mouth of one liar, you might as well see what all that fuss is about, right?
Truth is now my personal mission.
The following is a speech by Osama Bin Laden made on Oct. 29 2004 in which we outlines the reasons for 9/11.
"Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding."
~Albert Einstein
Praise be to Allah who created the creation for his worship and commanded them to be just and permitted the wronged one to retaliate against the oppressor in kind. To proceed:
Peace be upon he who follows the guidance: People of America this talk of mine is for you and concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan, and deals with the war and its causes and results.
Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar of human life and that free men do not forfeit their security, contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom.
If so, then let him explain to us why we don't strike for example - Sweden? And we know that freedom-haters don't possess defiant spirits like those of the 19 - may Allah have mercy on them.
No, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.
No one except a dumb thief plays with the security of others and then makes himself believe he will be secure. Whereas thinking people, when disaster strikes, make it their priority to look for its causes, in order to prevent it happening again.
But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year after the events of September 11th, Bush is still engaged in distortion, deception and hiding from you the real causes. And thus, the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred.
So I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the decision was taken, for you to consider.
I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.
The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.
I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.
The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.
In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.
And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.
And that day, it was confirmed to me that oppression and the intentional killing of innocent women and children is a deliberate American policy. Destruction is freedom and democracy, while resistance is terrorism and intolerance.
This means the oppressing and embargoing to death of millions as Bush Sr did in Iraq in the greatest mass slaughter of children mankind has ever known, and it means the throwing of millions of pounds of bombs and explosives at millions of children - also in Iraq - as Bush Jr did, in order to remove an old agent and replace him with a new puppet to assist in the pilfering of Iraq's oil and other outrages.
So with these images and their like as their background, the events of September 11th came as a reply to those great wrongs, should a man be blamed for defending his sanctuary?
Is defending oneself and punishing the aggressor in kind, objectionable terrorism? If it is such, then it is unavoidable for us.
This is the message which I sought to communicate to you in word and deed, repeatedly, for years before September 11th.
And you can read this, if you wish, in my interview with Scott in Time Magazine in 1996, or with Peter Arnett on CNN in 1997, or my meeting with John Weiner in 1998.
You can observe it practically, if you wish, in Kenya and Tanzania and in Aden. And you can read it in my interview with Abdul Bari Atwan, as well as my interviews with Robert Fisk.
The latter is one of your compatriots and co-religionists and I consider him to be neutral. So are the pretenders of freedom at the White House and the channels controlled by them able to run an interview with him? So that he may relay to the American people what he has understood from us to be the reasons for our fight against you?
If you were to avoid these reasons, you will have taken the correct path that will lead America to the security that it was in before September 11th. This concerned the causes of the war.
As for it's results, they have been, by the grace of Allah, positive and enormous, and have, by all standards, exceeded all expectations. This is due to many factors, chief among them, that we have found it difficult to deal with the Bush administration in light of the resemblance it bears to the regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the military and the other half which are ruled by the sons of kings and presidents.
Our experience with them is lengthy, and both types are replete with those who are characterised by pride, arrogance, greed and misappropriation of wealth. This resemblance began after the visits of Bush Sr. to the region.
At a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our countries, all of a sudden he was affected by those monarchies and military regimes, and became envious of their remaining decades in their positions, to embezzle the public wealth of the nation without supervision or accounting.
So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son and they named it the Patriot Act, under the pretence of fighting terrorism. In addition, Bush sanctioned the installing of sons as state governors, and didn't forget to import expertise in election fraud from the region's presidents to Florida to be made use of in moments of difficulty.
All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies.
This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.
All Praise is due to Allah.
So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah.
That being said, those who say that al-Qaida has won against the administration in the White House or that the administration has lost in this war have not been precise, because when one scrutinises the results, one cannot say that al-Qaida is the sole factor in achieving those spectacular gains.
Rather, the policy of the White House that demands the opening of war fronts to keep busy their various corporations - whether they be working in the field of arms or oil or reconstruction - has helped al-Qaida to achieve these enormous results.
And so it has appeared to some analysts and diplomats that the White House and us are playing as one team towards the economic goals of the United States, even if the intentions differ.
And it was to these sorts of notions and their like that the British diplomat and others were referring in their lectures at the Royal Institute of International Affairs. [When they pointed out that] for example, al-Qaida spent $500,000 on the event, while America, in the incident and its aftermath, lost - according to the lowest estimate - more than $500 billion.
Meaning that every dollar of al-Qaida defeated a million dollars by the permission of Allah, besides the loss of a huge number of jobs.
As for the size of the economic deficit, it has reached record astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars.
And even more dangerous and bitter for America is that the mujahidin recently forced Bush to resort to emergency funds to continue the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, which is evidence of the success of the bleed-until-bankruptcy plan - with Allah's permission.
It is true that this shows that al-Qaida has gained, but on the other hand, it shows that the Bush administration has also gained, something of which anyone who looks at the size of the contracts acquired by the shady Bush administration-linked mega-corporations, like Halliburton and its kind, will be convinced. And it all shows that the real loser is ... you.
It is the American people and their economy. And for the record, we had agreed with the Commander-General Muhammad Ataa, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations should be carried out within 20 minutes, before Bush and his administration notice.
It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone, the time when they most needed him.
But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah.
And it's no secret to you that the thinkers and perceptive ones from among the Americans warned Bush before the war and told him: "All that you want for securing America and removing the weapons of mass destruction - assuming they exist - is available to you, and the nations of the world are with you in the inspections, and it is in the interest of America that it not be thrust into an unjustified war with an unknown outcome."
But the darkness of the black gold blurred his vision and insight, and he gave priority to private interests over the public interests of America.
So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy bled, and Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his future. He fits the saying "like the naughty she-goat who used her hoof to dig up a knife from under the earth".
So I say to you, over 15,000 of our people have been killed and tens of thousands injured, while more than a thousand of you have been killed and more than 10,000 injured. And Bush's hands are stained with the blood of all those killed from both sides, all for the sake of oil and keeping their private companies in business.
Be aware that it is the nation who punishes the weak man when he causes the killing of one of its citizens for money, while letting the powerful one get off, when he causes the killing of more than 1000 of its sons, also for money.
And the same goes for your allies in Palestine. They terrorise the women and children, and kill and capture the men as they lie sleeping with their families on the mattresses, that you may recall that for every action, there is a reaction.
Finally, it behoves you to reflect on the last wills and testaments of the thousands who left you on the 11th as they gestured in despair. They are important testaments, which should be studied and researched.
Among the most important of what I read in them was some prose in their gestures before the collapse, where they say: "How mistaken we were to have allowed the White House to implement its aggressive foreign policies against the weak without supervision."
It is as if they were telling you, the people of America: "Hold to account those who have caused us to be killed, and happy is he who learns from others' mistakes."
And among that which I read in their gestures is a verse of poetry. "Injustice chases its people, and how unhealthy the bed of tyranny."
As has been said: "An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure."
And know that: "It is better to return to the truth than persist in error." And that the wise man doesn't squander his security, wealth and children for the sake of the liar in the White House.
In conclusion, I tell you in truth, that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida. No.
Your security is in your own hands. And every state that doesn't play with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security.
And Allah is our Guardian and Helper, while you have no Guardian or Helper. All peace be upon he who follows the Guidance.
User Reviews
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-09 08:47:03 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Continues beating dead horse.
Not from Osama, but from his lead man in Iraq
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The Iraqi Al-Qaeda leader then laid down two conditions for giving up the jihad.
"First, chase out the invaders from our territory in Palestine, in Iraq and everywhere in Islamic land.
"Second, instal sharia (Islamic law) on the entire Earth and spread Islamic justice there (...). The attacks will not cease until after the victory of Islam and the setting up of sharia," he swore.
Zarqawi concluded: "O young Muslims everywhere in the world, and in particular in the neighbouring countries (of Iraq) and in Yemen, I recommend jihad to you (...). O nation of Islam, America is today drawing its last breath."
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/09/060109051601.0pm2jjra.html
Yep, it seems like they have pretty reasonable goals.
Submitted by Geekboy_1 (user info) at 2006-01-08 11:42:03 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
+2 for having the balls to post this and keep arguing your point.
For the record, as far as I'm concerned, both of them (Bush and Osama) are idiots and can go to hell for all I care.
Submitted by TweakinIan (user info) at 2006-01-07 21:51:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Damn.
Isn't it scary to know that Public Enemy #1 is more articulate than the Commander in Chief?
ouuuuhhhhhh....
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-01-07 15:23:44 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:33:58 (#)
Ranking: -2
How about everyone shut the fuck up?
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Amen to that! The majority of the respondents think their
opinions mean something, but bear in mind that this is
a fucking website read by ~1000 people. Will your asinine
opinions change the world? You guess the answer......
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-07 14:27:31 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by FilthyAssistant (user info) at 2006-01-07 10:34:42 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by resignator (user info) at 2006-01-06 19:01:13 (#)
Ranking: 0
You want to change the world, almost every policy made, and the politicians in the US? Get our represenitives and senators out of the pockets of big money. That is all you have to do.
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Nice idea but it'll never happen. America is glued together by that big money - take it away and you'd splinter apart. You can't unify a landmass that large and that empty with group hugs and pretty ideas. The second big business stops running the show, china's gonna come for you.
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I'm of the mind that you can have a change in superpower without firing shots though.
Submitted by FilthyAssistant (user info) at 2006-01-07 10:34:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by resignator (user info) at 2006-01-06 19:01:13 (#)
Ranking: 0
You want to change the world, almost every policy made, and the politicians in the US? Get our represenitives and senators out of the pockets of big money. That is all you have to do.
===
Nice idea but it'll never happen. America is glued together by that big money - take it away and you'd splinter apart. You can't unify a landmass that large and that empty with group hugs and pretty ideas. The second big business stops running the show, china's gonna come for you.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-07 04:29:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by resignator (user info) at 2006-01-06 19:01:13 (#)
Ranking: 0
You want to change the world, almost every policy made, and the politicians in the US? Get our represenitives and senators out of the pockets of big money. That is all you have to do. It is so fucking simple.
I want my goddamn country back you fucking bastards!
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YES!!!!!
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Preach it!
That's ALL I'm talking about. I want my goddamn country back!
Submitted by Cadrach (user info) at 2006-01-07 00:19:13 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Pussy.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-06 22:22:36 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-06 12:18:55 (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-06 11:08:02 (#)
Ranking: 0
Indo: Do you remember in school when learning how to write an essay, we learned how to write to an audience? You see propaganda. I see someone writing to an audience (Americans). He probably didn't include the information you think he should have because he didn't want to create more enemies on his own side at that moment, he probably thought it more important to deal with the 'America' issue first seeing as our elections were upon us.
There are an infinite number of ways to look at any situation. You have your way, which is based on who you are (a former worker in the oil industry) and I have my way based on who I am (someone who, for reasons that should be obvious, realizes he's being lied to and misled by his own leadership on a daily basis). I am using a combination of reason and intuition to formulate an opinion on who to believe. That obviously differs from yours.
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He didn't include that information because he was trying to get support in the Middle east and cause more problems in the US. If it was geared toward AMericans why did he not release his own translation? I am sure a clever boy like you knows arabic and english isn't a 1:1 translation, and there is room for some wiggle. If he wanted his point in english he would have released it.
My way is to look at the big picture, after having lived in the middle east and with othe muslims. Your point of view is anything anti Bush is good.
Fine, lets pretend I am wrong on why he wrote it, who he wrote it to, on if Osama is 100% truthful, its impact on the middle east.
Answer me this what the fuck in this speech is news to you?
No answer?
Submitted by resignator (user info) at 2006-01-06 19:01:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
We've killed 100 of them to their 1 of us.
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I think that sums up my feelings on this whole subject. But if you want to keep a running tally then I think it is more along the lines of 1000 to 1. The US has put in place so many puppet regimes and messed with so many other country's welfare all in the excuse of the cold war. The average American was too busy to give a shit and are too guilt ridden to admit they let this happen. I think that is why you see all this conservative bullshit rhetoric spewed by half the population now. They are grasping for something.
You want to change the world, almost every policy made, and the politicians in the US? Get our represenitives and senators out of the pockets of big money. That is all you have to do. It is so fucking simple.
I want my goddamn country back you fucking bastards!
Submitted by awj002 (user info) at 2006-01-06 18:54:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
did osama actually write this? hmm
hmm
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-06 18:37:05 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Because that's not what we're after! If you do not run a cruel theocracy or pose any threat to America, we don't fuck with you. In fact, we don't give a shit. We are not after wealth, we are just looking out for ourselves and our friends.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
We are not after wealth???
We're just looking out for our friends???
We only fuck with those that run cruel theocracies???
Someone else want to take this one? I'm afraid I'll hurt the little, uneducated thing.
Tell you what, just go on back to bed, honey...your government is in control.
Submitted by psychabillyjean (user info) at 2006-01-06 18:28:18 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
The innocent people that died in 9/11 are the victims. Bin Laden asks, why doesn't Al Queda attack Switzerland? Answer, because Switzerland does not have the power that Al Queda wants to take. A better question would be, why doesn't America attack Switzerland, or Japan, or Bahrain or anyone else with any wealth??? Because that's not what we're after! If you do not run a cruel theocracy or pose any threat to America, we don't fuck with you. In fact, we don't give a shit. We are not after wealth, we are just looking out for ourselves and our friends. And thank God Israel has our friendship because everyone else on earth wants to continue the cycle of antisemitism and BLAMING THE VICTIM when it comes to the Palestinian debate. If these middle east fucks care so much about Palestine, oh POOR PALESTINE then why don't they give them a little chunk of Saudi Arabia?? That land belonged to the British and the Allies and after WWII we could give it to whoever we wanted. And we did, the jews. The only place on earth for them!!! But no, all you nazi fucks just won't let them even have that.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-06 18:16:06 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by psychabillyjean (user info) at 2006-01-06 18:09:36 (#)
Ranking: -2
woman: Father, I've been raped.
father: Well, look at how you dress and the company you keep
Blaming the victim is as old as time.
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That's not the scenario here.
The real question is: who's the victim?
We've killed 100 of them to their 1 of us.
Submitted by psychabillyjean (user info) at 2006-01-06 18:09:36 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
woman: Father, I've been raped.
father: Well, look at how you dress and the company you keep
Blaming the victim is as old as time. The main purpose it serves is to quell our anger at the evil wrongdoers because we know we are powerless (as an individual) to stop them. The other approach is complete rebuke often leading to vigilantism. I choose the latter, watch yer step boys.
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2006-01-06 17:44:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
If you're gonna have propaganda you might as well hear both sides and choose to believe something in the middle.
Submitted by refusenik (user info) at 2006-01-06 15:19:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
dirka dirka, i'll put a jihad on your ass!
Submitted by Cadrach (user info) at 2006-01-06 12:41:03 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Ignoring the possible holes in the things you say about Bush (I really just think you have yourself closed off and are looking for reasons not to HEAR what he's saying. Free your mind. =) let's examine what you said about OBL.
What possible reason would make me assume that the head of a multi-national organization, funded by millions or billions of dollars would be in charge of writing his own speeches? That's problem number one. How are you choosing who gets the benefit of the doubt here and who doesn't?
Problems number two and three - you give this guy extra credibility because he has the conviction to pull off the greatest terrorist attack in history? He DIDN'T pull off the greatest terrorist attack in history. He sat back in the RELATIVE SAFETY of a cave and pushed buttons, made phone calls, etc and convinced a few religious zealots to pull off the greatest terrorist attack in history. He wasn't in any fucking danger. So how do you get off giving him the courage of his convictions?
But even then, he didn't even know it WOULD be the greatest terrorist attack in history. All they wanted to do was fly the planes into the towers. They didn't know that the steel would fail. They were pleasantly surprised when the towers actually fell as a result of their attack. Read the transcripts from the tape that came out after the attacks. You are ALREADY giving the guy more credit than he deserves. Probably because you are automatically going to side with a "rebel" no matter what the actual facts are. You rebel, you.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-06 12:18:55 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-06 11:08:02 (#)
Ranking: 0
Indo: Do you remember in school when learning how to write an essay, we learned how to write to an audience? You see propaganda. I see someone writing to an audience (Americans). He probably didn't include the information you think he should have because he didn't want to create more enemies on his own side at that moment, he probably thought it more important to deal with the 'America' issue first seeing as our elections were upon us.
There are an infinite number of ways to look at any situation. You have your way, which is based on who you are (a former worker in the oil industry) and I have my way based on who I am (someone who, for reasons that should be obvious, realizes he's being lied to and misled by his own leadership on a daily basis). I am using a combination of reason and intuition to formulate an opinion on who to believe. That obviously differs from yours.
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He didn't include that information because he was trying to get support in the Middle east and cause more problems in the US. If it was geared toward AMericans why did he not release his own translation? I am sure a clever boy like you knows arabic and english isn't a 1:1 translation, and there is room for some wiggle. If he wanted his point in english he would have released it.
My way is to look at the big picture, after having lived in the middle east and with othe muslims. Your point of view is anything anti Bush is good.
Fine, lets pretend I am wrong on why he wrote it, who he wrote it to, on if Osama is 100% truthful, its impact on the middle east.
Answer me this what the fuck in this speech is news to you?
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-06 11:30:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Cadrach (user info) at 2006-01-06 10:51:06 (#)
Ranking: -2
I'm going to go find the transcripts (hopefully edited for coherency) of the last couple State of the Union addresses and post them. Then I'm going to accuse anyone who still doesn't like Bush of being closed minded and not being open to understanding their enemy.
KICKASS!!!
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Clever, but it's not the same thing.
Bush is a world figure who was elected in good faith to uphold the constitution and lead the most powerful country in the world. His ACTIONS are what tell us he's full of shit, not his words. His words aren't even written by him. He is a complete puppet.
Bin Laden, on the other hand, is a single man without a country or elected obligations, and who one would at least assume writes his own speeches. For if he has the conviction to pull off the greatest terrorist strike in history against the most powerful nation in history, you'd at least assume that same conviction would be represented in his words.
I think some people too easily forget that the men that carried out the 9/11 attacks weren't on some offshore aircraft carrier pressing buttons. They weren't flying remote control aircraft from a secret bunker in relative safety... These men were giving their lives for their beliefs!
No matter what culture or country you're from, that's a powerful thing! ...and it begs more scrutiny from us than a simple dismissal of 'craziness', in my opinion.
The people that would sell you THAT idea... THEY are the ones I'm concerned about when it comes to propaganda.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-06 11:08:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Indo: Do you remember in school when learning how to write an essay, we learned how to write to an audience? You see propaganda. I see someone writing to an audience (Americans). He probably didn't include the information you think he should have because he didn't want to create more enemies on his own side at that moment, he probably thought it more important to deal with the 'America' issue first seeing as our elections were upon us.
There are an infinite number of ways to look at any situation. You have your way, which is based on who you are (a former worker in the oil industry) and I have my way based on who I am (someone who, for reasons that should be obvious, realizes he's being lied to and misled by his own leadership on a daily basis). I am using a combination of reason and intuition to formulate an opinion on who to believe. That obviously differs from yours.
So be it.
I'll trust MY instincts. You trust yours. Let's see where it leads each of us.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-06 10:56:43 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Cadrach has the best comment out of all 189.
Submitted by Cadrach (user info) at 2006-01-06 10:51:06 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I'm going to go find the transcripts (hopefully edited for coherency) of the last couple State of the Union addresses and post them. Then I'm going to accuse anyone who still doesn't like Bush of being closed minded and not being open to understanding their enemy.
KICKASS!!!
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-06 10:38:26 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
ETS,
What is relevant about this speech?
Have you been hiding under a fucking rock? You didn't know that the muslim world didn't like us for invading Iraq? You didn't know that Muslims get upset about Israel/Palestine? I mean what exactly was eye opening about this? What causes in here are new to you? To anyone with half a brain his reasons are common fucking knowledge.
Your peoblem is that you see Osama as some sort of pure hearted hero, who is honest about his cause, you don't think the man behind 9/11 would lie, or twist the truth to make him seem less evil? You seem to think that any news source (FOX, CNN, BBC) are completely editited but that a speech by Osama will hold the complete truth? By the way this speech in its entirety WAS listed on at least CNN, probably on the others as well. Yep good thing you broke through the USA's Iron information wall to get this nugget of wisdom.
Q: Why in this speech does he not attack Saudi for being bedfellows with americans?
A: How in the fuck should I know!?!?! I'm not Osama Bin Laden! However, he DID briefly mention the American influence on Saudi Arabia as yet another in a laundry list of reasons to hate us.
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He doesn't list it because the whole thing is PROPAGANDA. This what inspired him to become a terrorist. Jesus, you call people sheep, but you believe what a mass murder puts out as the fucking gospel.
I give up. You are right. This is a heart felt plee to the American people so he isn't forced to be a terrorist any more. It wasn't written at a time when Osama was getting bad press for blowing up muslims. It wasn't written at a time when Bush was more unpopluar than ever in the Middle east, and Osama def wasn't trying to capitilize on peoples hate for Bush. Osama really cares for the struggle of the Palestinians even though he never lifted a finger to aid them or campaign for other muslim countries to treat them better when he was connected to his family's vast fortune. He has never expressed a desire for a Islamic state throughout the entire middle east. He never lied in his speeches, he never mislead people. The US isn't #1 in the world for giving aid to palestinians.
And you are right I am here putting out propaganda. I am concerned about my job security, even though I haven't worked in the Petroleum industry for OVER A YEAR. I am afraid of a policy of peace with the muslim world because of my job, not because they have attacked Israel with every olive branch they have extended, not because you can't find a single instance where a peacful resolution has come in a conflict in the middle east with outsiders (probably with insiders as well) unless there was a clear victor.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-06 09:58:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm going to take a minute to answer some of these questions and then, I'm going to leave this post alone.
Q: Why am I posting this now if it's not news?
A: Just because it fades from the headlines doesn't mean everyone has seen it, and it doesn't mean it deserves to be forgotten. I think this speech is and will remain relevant for quite some time to come. Besides, it was relevant to an argument I was having on my last post and instead of simply posting the link to this speech there (where undoubtedly noone would read it), I decided to post it where the neo-cons that run around on this site, along with anyone else who was curious about what we are really fighting for in Iraq, could read it and decide for themselves what to think without the gentle editing of American news organizations sticking their greasy fingers in the soup bowl. Because that's the essence of FREE speech and the sharing of ideas in a FREE society.
Q: Why in this speech does he not attack Saudi for being bedfellows with americans?
A: How in the fuck should I know!?!?! I'm not Osama Bin Laden! However, he DID briefly mention the American influence on Saudi Arabia as yet another in a laundry list of reasons to hate us.
Q: Why in this speech does he not condemn people for accepting a more western lifestyle?
A: What kind of stupid questions are these!?! Honestly. The man created a speech that is clearly designed to articulate to Americans the reasons we were attacked on 9/11, and offer us a clear roadmap toward not getting attacked again. Perhaps the reason he didn't venture too much into chastising his own people is because that wasn't the point of his speech. Americans are short enough in the attention span as it is for him to venture too far off topic of things that don't concern us. I'd say he's directing this particular speech toward outlining America and the Bush Family's contribution to his state of mind because he wanted us to understand that this asshole that we put up on this pedestal is one of the worst fucking terrorists in the entire world. Maybe he thought that was important for us to consider as we went to the polls. Plus, Bush has done his best to villify him in his anti-terrorist blame-game/fear-mongering witch hunt, so it's really only natural for a man to say "now hang on a cotton-pickin' minute here!"
Q: He goes on and on about Israel, but why has he never joined the Palestinians in fighting them, or worked for other Muslims to oppress them?
A: Are you fucking serious? Let me answer this stupid fucking question with another stupid fucking question: When you think of Osama Bin Laden, what date, if any, comes to mind? Any specific DATE? Maybe one that begins with a 9? Jesus, it's like teaching a retarded baby to suck a teet.
Q: What self serving agenda comes with working in the oil industry?
A: I don't know, maybe job security? Maybe because Republicans, such as the ones this speech is aimed at exposing, are all about protecting the use of fossil fuels for as long as possible because that's where the bulk of their money is invested? Maybe because you know that if we truly adopt a policy of peace with the Muslim world and focus our efforts and resources on research into alternative renewable sources of energy and ways of implementing them on a mass scale, you'd be out of work? You know...just a guess. Plus, the simple fact of your [Indoninja's] fervor on this subject alludes to a deep-seeded agenda in your [Indoninja's] comments.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-01-06 07:48:39 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
cut and paste
Submitted by ozzy (user info) at 2006-01-06 07:16:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
While Osama is/was undoubtedly a smart man, he has become the face which the Bush administration has focused their propoganda campaign, a scapegoat. From a political viewpoint, Bush neeed to be seen to retaliate against someone after 9/11. Bin Laden was undoubtedly involved, and naturally Bush needed to be "seen" to stand up for America.
And so, under the guise of a "War on Terror", Bush invades Afghanistan (from a political standpoint this is understandable, if their motive was to kill Bin Laden) and then, very controversially, Iraq.
But......in all likelihood Bin Laden is dead, yet his name, and later the name of Al Qaeda, were continually bandied about to justify the US occupation of the 2 nations. This is done in much the same way that the "boogey man" persona is used to scare kids.
ie "If we don't invade Afghanistan/Iraq, the terrorists and Al Qaeda will get you!" ("you" being the American public)
At the end of the day, he was right about a one major thing in this speech. The longer the US occupies Iraq and Afghanistan, the closer they will come to bankruptcy, which will mean that Bin Laden has acheived one of his goals.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2006-01-05 20:13:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
More left wing propoganda for impressionable idiots.
still worth reading though
Submitted by Quint (user info) at 2006-01-05 20:10:28 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
While I agree that the foreign policy of the US is the root of much of the current "war on terror", what I don't agree with is anyone who follows Islam to the segree of Mr. bin Laden. That religion is an oppressive cult used by leaders to motivate people to kill. And the sad thing is it keeps spreading and growing.
All of the tolerances, freedoms and human rights that we enjoy are not permitted by an Islamic society. Abortion? Gay Marriage? Women's right to vote? Freedom of speech? The more Islam spreads, the more we can kiss those goodbye. In 30 years we will be reading about drives to establish Islamic nations in what is now the Netherlands, France and England.
So if I have to choose between a bunch of jacked up cowboys starting wars to secure oil supply and Osama bin Laden, I will take the former.
Then again, what the fuck. DIE AMERICAN INFIDELS!!! YIYIYIYIYIYIYI!!!!!!!!!!!!! <<BOOM!>>
Submitted by CanucksFan (user info) at 2006-01-05 19:54:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Got about half way then realized life is short, and I have better things to do.
Submitted by detective_mike_ohara (user info) at 2006-01-05 18:12:47 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
We should get rid of the police, that way criminals will have nothing to hate and we can all be happy!
Submitted by lucid (user info) at 2006-01-05 18:02:21 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by Method (user info) at 2006-01-04 15:59:33 (#)
Ranking: -2
WTF I'M NOT JIHADING ALL THAT
==========================================================
Easily the best comment I've read in six months.
ABC ran this a long time ago. It's hardly news now.
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2006-01-05 17:28:41 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
This speech, and its attendant commentary is just the same as every liberal argument - vapid and hollow at the core. Do you have any idea why Israel went into Lebanon, ETS? Do you know the shithole it was before they did? DO you know the Lebanese were thrilled and threw flowers to the Israelis when they came in, they were so sick of the totalitarian turd of a government they were under?
Submitted by Zol (user info) at 2006-01-05 16:17:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"I give up all the time if I am busy at work. This is a slow day."
BLACK EYED PEAS
"Don't Lie"
Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry
Hey, baby my nose is getting big
I noticed it be growing when I been telling them fibs
Now you say your trust's getting weaker
Probably coz my lies just started getting deeper
And the reason for my confession is that I learn my lesson
And I really think you ought to know the truth
Because I lied and I cheated and I lied a little more
But after I did it I don't know what I did it for
I admit that I have been a little immature
Fucking with your heart like I was the predator
In my book of lies I was the editor
And the author
I forged my signature
And now I apologise for what I did to you
Cos what you did to me I did to you
No,no, no, no baby, no, no, no, no don't lie
No, no, no, no, yeah, you know, know, know, know, you gotta try
What you gonna do when it all comes out
When I really see you & what you're all about
No, no, no baby, no, no, no, no don't lie
Yeah, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you gotta try
-----
Don't bother
Just fuckin with ya
Submitted by SullyThePirate (user info) at 2006-01-05 15:56:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by Envenom (user info) at 2006-01-05 14:19:45 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
He gave a great speech for a dead guy
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 14:08:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Zol (user info) at 2006-01-05 13:59:57 (#)
Ranking: 0
indoninja
The Guy
Who never
Fuckin
Give UP.
----------------
I give up all the time if I am busy at work. This is a slow day.
Submitted by DeadHorse (user info) at 2006-01-05 14:04:33 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
LOOK WHO'S HERE!
Take the hint, fellas.
Submitted by Zol (user info) at 2006-01-05 13:59:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
indoninja
The Guy
Who never
Fuckin
Give UP.
This Song is for you, pal.
All our dreams are gone
With a lose of faith
And were still hangn' on
For another day
Its so hard to see
That its gonna get better
And when will it be
Its hard to say
We must believe
That if again we will recieve
Yes we must believe
That its gonna get better
Don't give up
Never give up
We won't stop givin' all we got
Don't give up
Never give up
We won't stop givin' all we got
And were breakin' the way
For what holds us down
And this could be the day
That brings out the light
Now were marchin' on
With the weather never gettin' on
And this town will in one
Without a fight
We must believe
That if again we will recieve
Yes we must believe
That its gonna get better
Don't give up
Never give up
We won't stop givin' all we got
Don't give up
Never give up
We won't stop givin' all we got
Don't give up
Never give up
We won't stop givin' all we got
Don't give up
Never give up
We won't stop givin' all we got
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 13:34:03 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 13:11:43 (#)
Ranking: 0
Questioning doesn't make someone retarded, it makes them AWARE.
---------------------
Not when you only question one side. fine refuse to believ me look it up yourself. Look at titles from Middle eastern news were at this time. Look at the first reports of insurgents blowing up civilians in Iraq. Look at newspapers being careful not to attack America too much but to crucify Bush.
And you still think I am the close minded one?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 13:30:30 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 13:11:43 (#)
Ranking: 0
If I am so way off base how come you can't answer a single question I had that makes me doubt the validity of this speech being the real reason he has attacked AMerica?
----------------------
I've answered all your questions. You just haven't accepted any of it.
Questioning doesn't make someone retarded, it makes them AWARE. You worked for an oil company and I am to believe that you don't have any self-serving agenda in any of your doubts or opinions?
-----------------------------
No, no you didn't. Why in this speech does he not attack Saudi for being bedfellows with americans? Why in this speech does he not condemn people for accepting a more western lifestyle? That is what drove him out of Saudi and to becomming a terrorist.
He goes on and on about Israel, but why has he never joined the Palestinians in fighting them, or worked for other Muslims to oppress them.
Where did you answer any of those questions? You should be thinking about that. You should be thinking about what was going on in the Middle east when this came out, as it had a much bigger impact and audience there. I am still baffled as to why you think this was ground breaking or post worthy? Anyone who keeps up with the news at all know the basic reasons people are fighting with people like Osama.
I don't love Bush, but to hands down believe anything Osama says is stupid, use your head. You don't think someone who masterminded 19 people killing themselves and taking out thousands of others is capable of propaganda?
What can we learn from this speech? To lay down arms and leave the Middle east? I have said it a million times, look what happens when Israel tries it? Where is your answer to that? they try to give palestine what they want, and they are attacked even more?
What self serving agenda comes with working in the oil industry? Look at SLB record, they aren't a drilling company, and they have the most environmentally friendly policies of any oil service company. To be honest I want as little known as possible about what I do, because I really think there are some vindictive people out there. Now I work with helicopters, and that is all I am saying.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 13:11:43 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
If I am so way off base how come you can't answer a single question I had that makes me doubt the validity of this speech being the real reason he has attacked AMerica?
----------------------
I've answered all your questions. You just haven't accepted any of it.
What do you think the 'real reason' is? I'm curious.
"Yeah I worked for an oil company, but it wasn't an american oil company. If you really think I am getting paid by the govt to spread propaganda on ubersite, you are fucking retarted."
And you STILL haven't told us what you do now. Amazing. Questioning doesn't make someone retarded, it makes them AWARE. You worked for an oil company and I am to believe that you don't have any self-serving agenda in any of your doubts or opinions?
I'll tell you right now, I'm an average Joe who works in tech support. I'm just trying to see what's here because George W. Bush has managed to convince me through his words and actions that he is a liar and a fake, along with the rest of his administration. That's coming from the perspective of a common citizen who watches and pays attention to a variety of news sources.
I don't know WHERE you're coming from on the other hand...but I have an idea.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:57:02 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:33:58 (#)
Ranking: -2
How about everyone shut the fuck up?
---------------------------
quite caul or we won't be sleeping together.
Oh yeah, I get to be the big spoon.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:56:02 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:38:58 (#)
Ranking: 0
You keep acting like Osama had something clear to gain from jumping on some Bush Hate Bandwagon...
It's not like he running for election, you know.
And it doens't matter what was going on in Muslim nations at the time so much. The point is, we were having our elections...OF COURSE everyone is going to seize the opportunity to point out that Bush is the lying, greedy, sniveling sack of horeshit that he is!
DUUUUHHHHH!
-----------------------
You stupid fuck. You don't think Osama relies to some extent on public relations? You don't think that if everybody in the Middle east hated him he would be stopped?
Of course he had a lot to gain by saying his problem was more with Bush then americans in general. Only the most extreme zealot really wants to kill an entire people, but one leader and the military that he represents? That is easy to hate, that makes it easier to hate his group.
It doesn't matter what was going on in Muslim countries? What countries do you think heard this whole speech? And you think I am close minded? You are a fucking simpleton if you can't see how the situation in the middle east would play a part on his speech.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:51:06 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:34:56 (#)
Ranking: 0
Oh trust me, I was IMPLYING you're twisting facts... I'm ACCUSING you outright.
What you did was you took my words completely out of context with the surrounding sentences, thereby narrowing their meaning. And you were using that narrowed statement in conjunction with an insinuation that I was SIDING with Osama, when I have stated elsewhere on this post that I don't agree with what he did, that I was only seeking to gain some understanding into WHY he did it.
I know that he was a wanted man when Clinton was president. He shot rockets at what he thought was his location in Africa, I think Sudan, but it turned out to be a glue factory or something. I didn't say he wasn't considered dangerous and a terrorist before Bush II's reign, but you keep insinuating he was behind the first WTC attack as well, and I don't recall that ever being substantianted in any form at any time. Besides, you're missing part of the point here. Osama said his problems with the United States began in 1982, then he went on to outline some of the ways in which the Bush family, (not just George W) has contributed to this hatred throught the years. You keep trying to make this into an issue of whether 9/11 would have happened had Bush not been in office.
Fair game to you. That's a common strategy of debate - the mutation of your opponents own words and misdirection. Again, one might conclude that since you seem to be so good at these basic principles that this might be your JOB. You worked for an oil company huh? Interesting... What is it you do now again??? Am I supposed to believe your arguments aren't coming with a distinct agenda here? Tell me what you do now...
-------------------
Where did I say you were siding with Osama? Where did I say you like him, or what he did. I said you respect him more then Bush, which you did, that isn't twisting anything. If you don't like how it sounds then maybe you should retract it.
If he was so hurt in 1982, why was he not fighting with the Lebanese then? Why has he never joined the Palestinians in fighting Israel?
I am not trying to make an issue of Bush being in office, he implies it in his speech, simply because Bush is so unpopular. He hated America when Clinton was in office, he was involved in the first attempt to blow up the WTC but doesn't mention it here (he has mentioned it before) because he wants momentum from the anti Bush sentiment in the middle east.
Yeah I worked for an oil company, but it wasn't an american oil company. If you really think I am getting paid by the govt to spread propaganda on ubersite, you are fucking retarted.
If I am so way off base how come you can't answer a single question I had that makes me doubt the validity of this speech being the real reason he has attacked AMerica?
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:38:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
So you think the road we were on with Clinton was the wrong one too? How come his leadership wasn't mentioned? Because this whole speech is playing on hatred for Bush, you ignorant shit. I explained to youwhat was going on in the Middle east at the time, and you still don't fucking get it do you? Every other day Bush was on the cover of the paper in Egypt, adn people were going out of their way to be anti-bush not anti-american. Osama was jumping on this bandwagon.
----------------------
You keep acting like Osama had something clear to gain from jumping on some Bush Hate Bandwagon...
It's not like he running for election, you know.
And it doens't matter what was going on in Muslim nations at the time so much. The point is, we were having our elections...OF COURSE everyone is going to seize the opportunity to point out that Bush is the lying, greedy, sniveling sack of horeshit that he is!
DUUUUHHHHH!
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:34:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:18:53 (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:00:00 (#)
Ranking: 0
Actually, let me help you out. Here's what I said:
"I don't agree with what Osama Bin Laden did, but reading this speech gives me tons more respect for him than I've ever had for George W. Bush.
At least Bin Laden has conviction and alliegance toward something other than money."
That's a bit of a far cry from saying I SIDE WITH OSAMA, as you clearly tried to insinuate here:
"I don't think you have to side with either one, ETS said he had more respect for Osama."
What you're doing right now is trying to create a general atmosphere of disdain for me with successive misinformation and paraphrasing of what I said, not to mention inaccurate 'facts' about unsubstantiated claims that Osama was behind the first WTC attack.
-----------------------------------
ETS, please read what you wrote, in your own parantesis up there. You said you have tons more respect for Osama then you ever had for Bush. Your fucking words. You did say you have more respect for Osama then Bush. Don't say I am twisting your words.
Osama WAS behind the attacks on the WTC among other things.
He was a wanted man when Clinton was president, you probably don't know that because your only interest in the news has to do with bashing Bush, which is fine by me, but don't try and imply I am the one twisting facts.
------------------------------
Oh trust me, I was IMPLYING you're twisting facts... I'm ACCUSING you outright.
What you did was you took my words completely out of context with the surrounding sentences, thereby narrowing their meaning. And you were using that narrowed statement in conjunction with an insinuation that I was SIDING with Osama, when I have stated elsewhere on this post that I don't agree with what he did, that I was only seeking to gain some understanding into WHY he did it.
I know that he was a wanted man when Clinton was president. He shot rockets at what he thought was his location in Africa, I think Sudan, but it turned out to be a glue factory or something. I didn't say he wasn't considered dangerous and a terrorist before Bush II's reign, but you keep insinuating he was behind the first WTC attack as well, and I don't recall that ever being substantianted in any form at any time. Besides, you're missing part of the point here. Osama said his problems with the United States began in 1982, then he went on to outline some of the ways in which the Bush family, (not just George W) has contributed to this hatred throught the years. You keep trying to make this into an issue of whether 9/11 would have happened had Bush not been in office.
Fair game to you. That's a common strategy of debate - the mutation of your opponents own words and misdirection. Again, one might conclude that since you seem to be so good at these basic principles that this might be your JOB. You worked for an oil company huh? Interesting... What is it you do now again??? Am I supposed to believe your arguments aren't coming with a distinct agenda here? Tell me what you do now...
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:33:58 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
How about everyone shut the fuck up?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:28:39 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:05:57 (#)
Ranking: 0
Oh and Razor...
Nowhere in this speech did this man try to use subsequent events as REASONING for 9/11...
He pointed to subsequent events because he was giving us a warning that the current road we're on will lead us right back to where we started.
And he happens to be right, whether he would be behind the next attack or not. If we continue doing like we're doing in this country, 9/11 is only indicitive of a pattern.
Stop confusing the truth, people.
You might not like what I have to say, and you certainly might not like what Osama has to say, but all I've really asked you to do here is to consider for a second that you *might* be wrong, and at least TRY to walk a mile in another man's moccassins, no matter how crazy you've been taught to regard him.
-------------------------
So you think the road we were on with Clinton was the wrong one too? How come his leadership wasn't mentioned? Because this whole speech is playing on hatred for Bush, you ignorant shit. I explained to youwhat was going on in the Middle east at the time, and you still don't fucking get it do you? Every other day Bush was on the cover of the paper in Egypt, adn people were going out of their way to be anti-bush not anti-american. Osama was jumping on this bandwagon.
The main reasons he points to is the Israeli/Palestine conflict. If he felt so strongly about them why is he not fighting there? He doesn't have convictions, at least not the ones he professes in this speech.
And look what happens when Israel does give an inch?
Are they any safer since giving up more land?
Have attacks decreased?
Have Muslims been any appreciative or tried to stop terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians?
What is the point of understanding this speech if it is BS. Israel is a clear fucking example that backing down won't stop the hatred or attacks, the only difference is we would be to far away to hit...for now. How many years do you think it took Japan to go from a backwards country (militarily speaking) to having a badass navy?
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:21:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by SilvrWolf (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:47:00 (#)
Ranking: 2
What would be the point of bringing down WTC-7? I mean, the two towers falling would be more than enough to serve their agenda. More importantly, why would Osama take credit for it? Was he so arrogant that he thought we wouldn't retaliate?
---------------------
The point of bringing down WTC-7 was money. Insurance. Pure and simple. Watch that video that Williamson posted all the way through. It will explain all that. The man that owned the entire WTC complex had only purchased it 2 months prior, and had taken out a fat insurance policy on the whole thing.
Bob seems to think that a 10 man crew could wire up an entire 40+ story building with explosives in a few hours. I happen to know he's mistaken.
In order to properly wire up a building such as that and have it fall straight down like it did in the video we all saw that day, you'd have to prepare for quite some time. Reinforced steel buildings also have to have some of their suppots drilled with pores, removed, or otherwise weakened as well to acheive the diesired effect. A carefully executed demolition would require the consultation of the blueprints and the architect of the building.
Besides...don't you find it a little implausable that a wrecking crew, who could have been out amid the rubble searching for survivors, instead was wiring up a building for IMMEDIATE demolition amid one of the largest search and rescue missions in our nation's history, thereby adding to the rubble?
Here is some more reading: http://www.wtc7.net/
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:18:53 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:00:00 (#)
Ranking: 0
Actually, let me help you out. Here's what I said:
"I don't agree with what Osama Bin Laden did, but reading this speech gives me tons more respect for him than I've ever had for George W. Bush.
At least Bin Laden has conviction and alliegance toward something other than money."
That's a bit of a far cry from saying I SIDE WITH OSAMA, as you clearly tried to insinuate here:
"I don't think you have to side with either one, ETS said he had more respect for Osama."
What you're doing right now is trying to create a general atmosphere of disdain for me with successive misinformation and paraphrasing of what I said, not to mention inaccurate 'facts' about unsubstantiated claims that Osama was behind the first WTC attack.
-----------------------------------
ETS, please read what you wrote, in your own parantesis up there. You said you have tons more respect for Osama then you ever had for Bush. Your fucking words. You did say you have more respect for Osama then Bush. Don't say I am twisting your words.
Osama WAS behind the attacks on the WTC among other things.
He was a wanted man when Clinton was president, you probably don't know that because your only interest in the news has to do with bashing Bush, which is fine by me, but don't try and imply I am the one twisting facts.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:10:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Razor, you said:
"Frankly, I think that the two of them are both criminals of the worst kind and the 21st century has a lot of work ahead of it to generate some jackasses of their level.
I'm of the opinion that George W. Bush is perhaps the worst president in the history of the United States. I also believe that he is a criminal of the worst kind, and nothing he said can be trusted."
I couldn't agree more. This is why I said that I respect Osama more than Bush because at least he, unlike Bush, seems to carry some principles (however twisted they may be) other than what can be listed off as one of the seven deadly sins.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:05:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Oh and Razor...
Nowhere in this speech did this man try to use subsequent events as REASONING for 9/11...
He pointed to subsequent events because he was giving us a warning that the current road we're on will lead us right back to where we started.
And he happens to be right, whether he would be behind the next attack or not. If we continue doing like we're doing in this country, 9/11 is only indicitive of a pattern.
Stop confusing the truth, people.
You might not like what I have to say, and you certainly might not like what Osama has to say, but all I've really asked you to do here is to consider for a second that you *might* be wrong, and at least TRY to walk a mile in another man's moccassins, no matter how crazy you've been taught to regard him.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 12:00:00 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Actually, let me help you out. Here's what I said:
"I don't agree with what Osama Bin Laden did, but reading this speech gives me tons more respect for him than I've ever had for George W. Bush.
At least Bin Laden has conviction and alliegance toward something other than money."
That's a bit of a far cry from saying I SIDE WITH OSAMA, as you clearly tried to insinuate here:
"I don't think you have to side with either one, ETS said he had more respect for Osama."
What you're doing right now is trying to create a general atmosphere of disdain for me with successive misinformation and paraphrasing of what I said, not to mention inaccurate 'facts' about unsubstantiated claims that Osama was behind the first WTC attack.
I can sit here and beat you all day on every point, but it won't matter to someone like you. You'll keep coming back... And knowing that no one is ever going to read all these reviews to get an overview of the entire argument, you'll get a few people who will fall right in line with you because they've taken what you say at face value, when it's anything but.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 11:51:54 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 11:31:46 (#)
Ranking: -2
I am not trying this into a bush Vs Osama thing (like some of ETS comments).
----------------------------
Like which ones? Show me where.
Misdirection. You seem to be a pro at this, but you really could use some work.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 11:31:46 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I am not trying this into a bush Vs Osama thing (like some of ETS comments).
I am simply saying they way he uses W's name in this speech undermines it's validity as anything other then propaganda.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 11:29:37 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2006-01-05 11:18:46 (#)
Ranking: 0
ok you missed my point a little.
What kind of a person Bush is has nothing to do with the validity of this speech, any more than what kind of a person Osama is has anything to do with the validity of anything that comes out of Bush's mouth.
It's like people are saying that they trust Bush because they don't trust Osama or vice versa.
-------------------------------
I think you missed my point.
I don't think this is a Osama Vs. Bush issue.
When you read the speech he continually blames Bush for continued terrorist attacks. This undermines the validity of the speech because he tried to blow up the WTC before Bush was elected, so there is no way his attacks are because of Bush.
It would lead a reasonable person to believe this was written to garner support in the middle east because Bush is hated more then America. Especially if you look what was going on in the Middle east at the time.
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2006-01-05 11:18:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
ok you missed my point a little.
What kind of a person Bush is has nothing to do with the validity of this speech, any more than what kind of a person Osama is has anything to do with the validity of anything that comes out of Bush's mouth.
It's like people are saying that they trust Bush because they don't trust Osama or vice versa.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 11:13:30 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2006-01-05 11:02:13 (#)
Ranking: 0
You know what just pops my nuts?
The fact that some people, as there is tremendous evidence of on this post, feel that you have to side with either Bush or Osama.
What does George Bush have to do with the validity of this speech, aside from the fact that he was mentioned in it?
---------------------------
Because he mentions George W as a cause for 9/11. Even though Osama had been trying to attack America for a long time before that. He (or whoever wrote the speech) used Bush for an excuse because he was (and still is) so unpopular in the Middle east.
I don't think you have to side with either one, ETS said he had more respect for Osama.
Submitted by JackalFett (user info) at 2006-01-05 11:06:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
*weren't
Submitted by JackalFett (user info) at 2006-01-05 11:04:03 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
First off, this isnt a democracy, its a republic. You don't really have a vote on any policies, just on politicians... do you know what it takes to get a politician removed from office? Alot, once they get in they can say fuck off to you and do what they want. The only real power you have is to not re-elect them... which kinda sucks because it's all "party politics" anymore and you end up voting on party policy not on politicians.
Bush has valid points. Bin Laden has valid points. Maybe more of us would listen if they we're killing all the little people.
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2006-01-05 11:02:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You know what just pops my nuts?
The fact that some people, as there is tremendous evidence of on this post, feel that you have to side with either Bush or Osama.
What does George Bush have to do with the validity of this speech, aside from the fact that he was mentioned in it?
Frankly, I think that the two of them are both criminals of the worst kind and the 21st century has a lot of work ahead of it to generate some jackasses of their level.
I'm of the opinion that George W. Bush is perhaps the worst president in the history of the United States. I also believe that he is a criminal of the worst kind, and nothing he said can be trusted.
I am also of the opinion that Osama Bin Laden is one of the worst figures to emerge in the modern history of mankind. He is a criminal of the worst kind, and nothing he says can be trusted.
Specifically, in this speech, he is using events that have happened SINCE 9/11 as a hindsight justification for his actions, in the very same way that Bush says we went into Iraq to remove a dictator.
If we ever capture Osama, I think we should throw him in a pit with W and make them fight it out with tridents Captain Kirk style. Then we can shoot the winners nuts off and let him bleed to death tied to a chair while they are alternately shown photographs of pornographic acts and late term abortions while Yoko Ono reads (in a poetically interprative style) Electro's collected works.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:55:25 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Indo,
I don't respect Osama. I live in a major city and I don't really like Muslims to be honest. You could even say that I hate them sometimes. I'm just trying to understand where they MIGHT be coming from. Maybe that's where me and ETS differ.
Anyway, I think you know what I mean and I get your point. We can fuck now.
Submitted by BLITZKREIG_BOB (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:54:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Any blasting engineer will tell you a job like that, to do it safely and accurately, takes months of planning and preparation, yet it was done THAT DAY!
=======
No it doesn't. You could have a 10-man crew wire a building for demo within a few hours. All you need to know is where the structural columns are located and place a shear charge onto the steel. The wiring/fusing can be done in minutes if you're just going for a big bang. If you want timed, sequenced explosions, you need to time your ignitions and fuses.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:50:01 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
But just because a bunch of internet clowns can't handle it doesn't mean I'm not going to try to be."""
What a bizarre sentence. Don't you think they'd handle it better if you showed a little bit more respect? Like not calling them Internet clowns and such?
At least when I insult people, I don't expect them to agree with me.
For instance, I don't think we'll have a healthy debate if I tell you that you're a 28 years old loser with deep emotional issues that pretend he's an accomplished musicians even though all he does is max up the reverb and moan like a wounded goat.
Submitted by SilvrWolf (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:47:00 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
What would be the point of bringing down WTC-7? I mean, the two towers falling would be more than enough to serve their agenda. More importantly, why would Osama take credit for it? Was he so arrogant that he thought we wouldn't retaliate?
Don't get me wrong here. Both ideas (9/11 conspiracy and Bin Laden's reasonings) have compelling points, but I still can't see how they can possibly coexist. Maybe I'm just too hung-over to comprehend this stuff right now.
Damnit! I have to get some work done. I'll try to get back to this later.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:45:09 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:30:35 (#)
Ranking: 0
I see.
Honestly, I don't even believe he wrote that. Nor do I believe that it is the utmost truth or that it is even coherent. Far from it. But do you think that W's speeches about liberty and freedom are 100% integrity? You really think Iraq was invaded to spread freedom? Were you pissed off about THAT propaganda? Bullshit is being spewed from all sides buddy.
So I think it's important to have a different perception of our enemy, not some "evil-doer" childish vision while we conince ourselves we're so fucking Good.
I suppose that trying to have a more levelheaded approach of all this makes me a brainwashed terrorist.
-------------
I don't swallow everything Bush has to say. He isn't my favorite person. But people seem to be taking Osama's words as gospel. Call me a crazy right wing nut, but I am more likely to believe Bush.
I accept the possibility he might have intentionaly mislead us, but if him or his administration was that clever they would have known Iraq was going to be a quagmire. There are any number of cases in the middle east where intellegence was fucked up. Read about the CIA led coup in Iran, do you know how amazing (not amazing good, but amazing these guys were like monkeys fucking footballs)it is that it worked?
When I hear people like ETS say they respect Osama more then bush because he is not motivated by money, it worries me and makes me sick. Osama may not be motivated by money, but he is motivated by hate of all things not Muslim. That includes you, me and even people at anti war protests.
This message is not sending out Osama's message. It is using Israel/palestine to unite muslims in hatred for Bush, and the US.
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:44:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Recipe:
1 tbsp. truth
6 oz. semi-sweet misdirection
3/4 cup phony religious pretense
1 pound baking fear
12 oz. lies
1. Add truth and misdirection to a glass bowl. Stir in phony religious pretense gradually.
2. Add baking fear, stir until mixture is smooth.
3. Add mixture to a cake pan. Sprinkle lies on top.
4. Bake at 350 degrees for an hour or until Americans believe this pile of shit.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:43:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:40:46 (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:08:40 (#)
Ranking: 0
Why is everyone always so worried that someone around them might have something to share that resembles wisdom?
You should share in that, not simply combat it because you feel threatened by it.
===
Claiming that you own wisdom usually discredit anything you have to say. And it makes you look like a pretentious prick. The only way to know if you are wise is if others decide you are. Just because you smoked a joint in your mom basement and ruminated a few thoughts you cherry-picked on the Internet doesn't mean you're the Dalai Lama.
There's your -2
----------------------
I never said I was wise.
But just because a bunch of internet clowns can't handle it doesn't mean I'm not going to try to be.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:40:46 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:08:40 (#)
Ranking: 0
Why is everyone always so worried that someone around them might have something to share that resembles wisdom?
You should share in that, not simply combat it because you feel threatened by it.
===
Claiming that you own wisdom usually discredit anything you have to say. And it makes you look like a pretentious prick. The only way to know if you are wise is if others decide you are. Just because you smoked a joint in your mom basement and ruminated a few thoughts you cherry-picked on the Internet doesn't mean you're the Dalai Lama.
There's your -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:32:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Actually Silvr, I'm thinking that our government was tipped off that an event was about to occur and they seized the opportunity to allow it to happen because, after much analysis, they realized this would actually be in their favor.
As for the explosives in the twin towers... I think they've been there for years. I think they might have been installed after the first attack in the early 90s so that in the event of a catastrophe such as 9/11 they could bring the whole building down without harming surrounding structures.
Doesn't it strike you as strange that they OBVIOUSLY had building #7 already wired!?!?!
Any blasting engineer will tell you a job like that, to do it safely and accurately, takes months of planning and preparation, yet it was done THAT DAY!
That day, Jeremy.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:30:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-04 19:50:01 (#)
Ranking: -2
It is only extreme because so many people think it is an eye opening truth.
It pisses me off because he never really admits that he is pissed off at the US for putting troops in Saudi.
He never mentions how he hates Saudi for not being strict enough.
It pisses me off that nobody picks up on him being fine with Muslims oppressing other muslims but if an infidel interferes they deserve death.
It pisses me off that he continually singles out W Bush and his father (I am not defending them here), even though he tried to blow up the WTC when CLinton was president.
It pisses me off that people reading this have no idea what was going on in the Muslim world when this was written.
It pisses me off that people can't see through this self serving BS.
===
I see.
Honestly, I don't even believe he wrote that. Nor do I believe that it is the utmost truth or that it is even coherent. Far from it. But do you think that W's speeches about liberty and freedom are 100% integrity? You really think Iraq was invaded to spread freedom? Were you pissed off about THAT propaganda? Bullshit is being spewed from all sides buddy.
So I think it's important to have a different perception of our enemy, not some "evil-doer" childish vision while we conince ourselves we're so fucking Good.
I suppose that trying to have a more levelheaded approach of all this makes me a brainwashed terrorist.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:27:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by SilvrWolf (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:21:02 (#)
Ranking: 2
I have an issue: B, you seem to be having a possible change of heart about the whole 9/11 coverup thing [per your comments on williamson's post]. This is essentially in opposition to what's posted here. I don't see how you can buy into a conspiracy involving our own government's hand in the WTC disaster while simultaneously making your post here. Bin Laden proudly takes credit for the event[here], yet you suggest[there] that the current administration may have set it up. That would essentially mean they're working together, yet their ideologies are supposedly in opposition. It creates a paradox (albeit a small one) in your line of thought. Maybe I'm reading too much or not well enough into this. You know I value your opinions, man; I'd just like to know how you address this.
That said, I don't think the whole truth will ever come out about any of this, sadly. Our government (ALL governments, really) has been "onion-ing" itself for decades. Each layer we peel off only reveals another layer. If the reality of things should ever come to light, I fear it may be too late to do anything about it.
--------------------------------
I'm keeping both possibilities open, but there is some real compelling evidence in that video.
I posted this before I saw that video.
Submitted by FartSmeller (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:24:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:16:04 (#)
Ranking: 0
The purpose here was to try to understand where this man is coming from so we can perhaps take another look at ourselves, and from that, see how to change things for the better.
========================
Okay, I actually misread this part. On that note, of course we should all practice peace. It's the greatest theme of the world, it was Jesus' whole mission and Mohammed after him and MLK Jr. after that. But, when has peace been met with peace? Peaceful move by Israel: murder of Israeli students. Peaceful move by U.S.: bombing of Kovar Towers. It just won't work with the Muslim extremists. They want to convert or kill us all.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:23:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
For fuck's sake, ETS, quit acting like you have the moral high-ground. Get into the argument and make some points that don't involve you acting like we're all afraid of wisdom. Better to come off like a brainwashed right-winger than to sit on the sidelines of your own battle acting like you're above the whole thing.
------------------------
It's not my actions we should be concerned about here, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not avoiding the argument. I just think this is too important to all of us to reduce to a steaming pile of smouldering shit.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:22:40 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:16:04 (#)
Ranking: 0
I agree with you, but that's not the purpose of this exercise. The purpose here was to try to understand where this man is coming from so we can perhaps take another look at ourselves, and from that, see how to change things for the better.
Tell me you don't understand where he's coming from. Tell me that in some way that we are not responsible, ourselves, if what he said here is true.
-------------------------------
ETS you tell me why he didn't go to palestine to fight?
Tell me why he did not get involved until US military were put in Saudi?
Tell me why he was not upset about Saddam killing Muslims?
Tell me why he never mentions this in his speech?
Because Most muslims don't want to live in a country as strict as saudi (Osama wanted it stricter). Because every muslim will stand behind him if he blames it on Israel/palestinian conflict. If you can't see that you don't know shit about the Middle east.
Submitted by SilvrWolf (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:21:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I have an issue: B, you seem to be having a possible change of heart about the whole 9/11 coverup thing [per your comments on williamson's post]. This is essentially in opposition to what's posted here. I don't see how you can buy into a conspiracy involving our own government's hand in the WTC disaster while simultaneously making your post here. Bin Laden proudly takes credit for the event[here], yet you suggest[there] that the current administration may have set it up. That would essentially mean they're working together, yet their ideologies are supposedly in opposition. It creates a paradox (albeit a small one) in your line of thought. Maybe I'm reading too much or not well enough into this. You know I value your opinions, man; I'd just like to know how you address this.
That said, I don't think the whole truth will ever come out about any of this, sadly. Our government (ALL governments, really) has been "onion-ing" itself for decades. Each layer we peel off only reveals another layer. If the reality of things should ever come to light, I fear it may be too late to do anything about it.
Submitted by FartSmeller (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:20:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:16:04 (#)
Ranking: 0
I agree with you, but that's not the purpose of this exercise. The purpose here was to try to understand where this man is coming from so we can perhaps take another look at ourselves, and from that, see how to change things for the better.
-----------------------------------------------------
Sorry to come off harshly, but you never phrased your point in that way. Instead, you consistently reviewed acting like anyone in disagreement with Osama bin Laden was an asshole or propagandized or Bushified or whatever.
I can understand what Osama is saying, but I still think that his woes have no validity whatsoever. He's saying that the WTC was in response to X,Y, and Z horrible thing that the U.S. did.
What about 99.7 percent of the gratuitous acts that him and people like him have been committing for the last, say, three hundred years? Nay, earlier, when the Arab pirates of the Barbary Coast were pillaging British trade ships. Is that all shit we should just "understand" and "feel for him" on because he saw some of the horrors HE HELPED CREATE first-hand? I think not.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:16:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You talk about peace, ETS, Osama talks about peace, well then maybe he shoud be practicing what he's "preaching" and leading the peaceful charge against America to quit our supposed wrongdoings. Maybe than everyone in America wouldn't hate him. You catch more bees with honey, and all that.
----------------------
I agree with you, but that's not the purpose of this exercise. The purpose here was to try to understand where this man is coming from so we can perhaps take another look at ourselves, and from that, see how to change things for the better.
"I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.
The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.
In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.
And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children."
Tell me you don't understand where he's coming from. Tell me that in some way that we are not responsible, ourselves, if what he said here is true.
Submitted by FartSmeller (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:13:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Praise be to Allah who created the creation for his worship and commanded them to be just and permitted the wronged one to retaliate against the oppressor in kind. To proceed:
Peace be upon he who follows the guidance: People of America this talk of mine is for you and concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan, and deals with the war and its causes and results.
==================================
Like this crap here. He starts off his speech by saying "the IDEAL way to prevent another Manhattan"?! Give me a fucking break. The way to prevent another Manhattan is to live by ETS's teachings and put down our guns! He must be an idiot!
For fuck's sake, ETS, quit acting like you have the moral high-ground. Get into the argument and make some points that don't involve you acting like we're all afraid of wisdom. Better to come off like a brainwashed right-winger than to sit on the sidelines of your own battle acting like you're above the whole thing.
Submitted by FartSmeller (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:10:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Perfect case in point.
You mention nothing about what Bin Laden himself said in the post. Instead, you choose to take my first review and use it as a tool of hatred.
=========================================
Okay, fine. I tried to infer what I thought about his speech, but I'll just say it: I think it's all bullshit.
The parts where he talks about the killing the U.S. has done have some truth to them, of course. That's what happens in war. But, when he starts out the speech praising Allah and talking about how he's just [basically] follwing the true path of righteousness is when he makes me raise the bullshit flag.
If Osama wants to lead a Muslim revolution throughout the world, converting or killing everyone he comes across (and that is what he wants, make NO mistake about that) that's one thing. Lots of shitty things have been done in the name of religion and power lust. However, acting like he's just acting on God's behalf is a joke, and acting like ANY of his actions are justified because of what he believes the U.S. to have done is even more hilarious.
You talk about peace, ETS, Osama talks about peace, well then maybe he shoud be practicing what he's "preaching" and leading the peaceful charge against America to quit our supposed wrongdoings. Maybe than everyone in America wouldn't hate him. You catch more bees with honey, and all that.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:09:56 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
ETS I read what it says.
If Israel lays down their arms they will all be killed.
Man, woman and child.
That okay with you? They gave evicted their own people to give palestinians land (something no Muslim country would do), and what are they doing? They are shelling them from it. Peace won't work there.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:08:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by FartSmeller (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:04:04 (#)
Ranking: 0
And thank goodness Caul was here to make some actual good points for your side without coming off like he thinks he's smarter and more enlightened than the rest of us.
--------------------------
Why is everyone always so worried that someone around them might have something to share that resembles wisdom?
You should share in that, not simply combat it because you feel threatened by it.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-05 10:05:10 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-05 09:52:54 (#)
Ranking: 2
I don't understand