If Iran makes nuclear weapons, do we really have room to talk? (1822 hits)
Category: PoliticsLabels: ETS_Sociopolitical_Commentary ETS_Essays
Rating: 0.74 on 106 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (View user info) at 2006-01-10 14:05:48 EST
Short answer: no.
Countries get into the nuclear game because it gets them a seat at the 'priviledged' table...even if everyone around the table is looking at you like you're a total skank because they're the popular kids and you're not, the fact that you have the commonality of nuclear weapons means they can sneer all they want, but the fact remains you've made it here and cannot be pushed around at the whim of others anymore.
Think of that...
What if the United States had not won the nuclear arms race? What if a communist nation had developed the bomb first? Can you imagine the frustration of living under sanctions from a foreign power...one that only wields its authority because they have the ability to blow us off the map if push really came to shove?
It's like being a pipsqueak in a room of bullies who are only leaving you alone because you agree to give them your lunch money everyday. And taking ju-jitsu lessons is just out of the question because they can't handle the thought of you being on equal footing because they're afraid you'll remember all the times they picked on you needlessly and pushed you around and stole your lunch money and humiliated you in front of girls. They're nervous because they know retribution is forthcoming if ever you learn to defend yourself. They know that your progress is a deflation of their power over you.
What are international sanctions and UN resolutions and security council hearings if not an attempt to exert rule over another sovereign nation? What does it really indicate?
Out of the fear of the possibility of our own demise, and for all these insinuations and statements of the 'dire consequences to come', the fact remains that if the little pipsqueak can keep his ju-jitsu learning secret and he is able to master it without the knowledge of the bigger bullies, even if they were to find out at that point, it would ensure mutual footing and freedom from further bullying.
The fear of retribution, while posing a genuine concern for the bully, should tell him more about himself than anything. At this point, it would serve the bully well to rethink the way he treats others. It would serve him well to take a long look at his fear and determine its true source, for the roots of fear are often hidden over by the thickets of his past.
If the United States of America and its allies were to lie on the psychiatrist's couch, what secrets would their fear reveal? I suspect it might have something to do with the unknown...with uncertainty...with knowing there are some things that you simply cannot control, and no amount of money or power can ever change that.
Karma has a way of exacting its own vengeance upon those who tread on her with impunity and swagger.
I am a firm believer in the edict that those things have power over us that we allow to have power.
A bull with blinders might well trample everything in its path, but eventually it will run into a wall, and when that time comes, it doesn't really behoove him to get back up and start running again without first trying to figure out how to take the blinders off.
User Reviews
Submitted by Bellebrown (user info) at 2006-01-12 08:01:59 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-11 11:39:16 (#)
Ranking: 0
The United States dropped the bomb to impress the Russians and Chinese, that's it. It was unnecessary military muscle-flexing. """
Japan was far from surrendering and the conflict would've linguished for a pretty long time. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki prevented further American death, but also the quasi total anhilation of the Japanese people which was ready to fight to the last man.
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I can't understand why they didn't drop it over somewhere uninhabited and then said "Carry on mate, and we'll drop this on Tokyo"... If they had still refused, they could have bombed them and said "I told you so".
But then, I suppose they wanted to see what it did to a real city, and what a waste of money it would have been to blow up the ocean as a demonstration of how hard you can be.
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2006-01-11 17:42:49 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The Russians and the Japs never actually signed a peace treaty after the war, any negotiations between the two are highly strained by the fact that Russia still occupies a few islands that the Japanese want back.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-11 12:27:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Thanatos (user info) at 2006-01-11 12:10:30 (#)
Ranking: 0
ETS, you need to realize that people are never going to change. How exactly do you propose to make everyone love their brother?
When you drive to work, what happens if someone cuts you off? Do you think, "My brother must really need to get to work on time. I should be glad he cut me off so that he could accomplish his goal".
Fuck no. You'll do the same thing everyone else does, either flick him off or curse him under your breath. How exactly are we supposed to change people into loving all our worldwide 'neighbors' when we can't stand people that live on the same block?
You're talking about changing human nature. It will not happen. You want to breed out the survival instinct of the human race. It CAN not happen.
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HAHAHAHAHA....
My brothers also buy lottery tickets in front of me at the convenience store checkout when I'm in a hurry, but I just wait till later to confront them in a non-violent manner...with a tire iron in one hand.
I'm not even talking about the world really. I'm talking about us as individuals. Countries should really be the EASY part. Creating a policy and having cooler heads around in the government should be the part we GET RIGHT. It is our own actions that should be the hard part, not the other way around. It's easy to create laws stating that we have to have checks and balances and we have to consider peace above all else. Shit, look at the Canadians! They could have been right there with un in every conflcit full force if they had so chosen, but they are more laid back and groovy than that. Look at the Swiss, if for no other reason than I'll probably misspell 'Switzerland'. They don't go poking around in everyone's business, then running back inside their mountainous cocoon going "na na na na NA NAAAAAA", do they? The answer is NO! And they damn sure better not start that shit either, because I'm pretty sure this isn't the 12th century, and we've got shit that will fly right over those mountains now and weapons that will blow them the fuck out of our way!
But yea...loving your brother. It's easier than we think. Sharing a laugh, a joke, a courteous handshake is a lot easier than a conflict. How many fights have you been in as an individual? Are there any of those you can honestly say there is nothing you could have done personally to avoid them? How many fights have you fought that you can honestly say you were doing it to protect someone else's welfare?
Submitted by Thanatos (user info) at 2006-01-11 12:10:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
ETS, you need to realize that people are never going to change. How exactly do you propose to make everyone love their brother?
When you drive to work, what happens if someone cuts you off? Do you think, "My brother must really need to get to work on time. I should be glad he cut me off so that he could accomplish his goal".
Fuck no. You'll do the same thing everyone else does, either flick him off or curse him under your breath. How exactly are we supposed to change people into loving all our worldwide 'neighbors' when we can't stand people that live on the same block?
You're talking about changing human nature. It will not happen. You want to breed out the survival instinct of the human race. It CAN not happen.
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2006-01-11 12:10:17 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
btw do you have hobbies that aren't in anyway connected to cnn?
Submitted by Kraven (user info) at 2006-01-11 12:07:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Wont grade on the message, but is it just me or is it that the American Public, and the American Government on conflicting sides? We bitch about our government, but what do we do to change it? We mock ourselves for being a super-power bully, but who would you rather have the bully.. Iran, Iraq, China, Germany??? Granted years have past, but Geremany had its chance, the world didnt like it. I feel much safer for the world knowing we are the super-power bully, based on our moral and ethical basis (atleast till around the 90's). But i do have to say, yes.. America is as vain as Lucifer himself; big, bad and beautiful. We're a country being taken over by money and power hungry Athiests, and egnostics, what can you expect. Politics and peace talk make me sick, it wont happen ever, unless we unite as one country, one planet, sounds a tad bit science fiction to me, i pray for our furute. Good luck to us all.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-11 12:06:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Also, Caul, the Russians were on the verge of joining us in the conflict in Japan. There had already been skirmishes with the Japanese, and the US was afraid it wouldn't have unilateral free reign over the rebuilding and occupation of Japan after the war if Russia were to enter the picture.
It was really the beginning of the cold war and the idea of preventing the spread of communism around the world. Essentially, we wanted to be the sole shapers of the future of Japan. That's why the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It had nothing to do with American lives, as the official line suggests.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-11 11:53:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Drone_of_Industry (user info) at 2006-01-11 11:39:59 (#)
Ranking: 0
save the children
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/safetyproducts-store/safforchil.html
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Dude, that's fucked up.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-11 11:51:43 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm
There you go, Caul. What you said there is the official line, but if you dig deeper, there is more to it. The Japanese were only not going to surrender if they were disallowed in the resulting treaty to continue the institution of Emperor, which the Americans refused to allow, yet eventually did anyway AFTER the dropping of the bombs. Read the comments in that link by the military generals and several scientists and subsequent US presidents on the issue.
Submitted by Drone_of_Industry (user info) at 2006-01-11 11:39:59 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
save the children
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/safetyproducts-store/safforchil.html
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-11 11:39:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The United States dropped the bomb to impress the Russians and Chinese, that's it. It was unnecessary military muscle-flexing. """
Japan was far from surrendering and the conflict would've linguished for a pretty long time. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki prevented further American death, but also the quasi total anhilation of the Japanese people which was ready to fight to the last man.
That's History has been apologetic of Truman.
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2006-01-11 11:35:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
yes but i believe in revenge. they started it. and then i stick my tongue out at them.
gaijin forever!!!
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-11 11:30:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2006-01-11 09:59:08 (#)
Ranking: 1
eh, but notice we haven't used any nukes since we found out exactly what the fuck they do. and neither has any one else. so maybe it's not so much fear of retribution because it's not like we can't wipe the world off the map. let iran have the toys, by the time they blow up half the usa we'll have turned the entire middle east into a big smoking glass hole in the ground. and we probably still have room to talk, simply because we know better now. but then again, we'd also just talk anyway because we're americans and we have big mouths.
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We knew what would happen before we dropped the first bombs. The Japs were completely on the ropes and were probably going to surrender anyway.
The United States dropped the bomb to impress the Russians and Chinese, that's it. It was unnecessary military muscle-flexing.
History has been kind to Truman in that regard, supposing he did it to save American lives, which is simply not the case.
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2006-01-11 09:59:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
eh, but notice we haven't used any nukes since we found out exactly what the fuck they do. and neither has any one else. so maybe it's not so much fear of retribution because it's not like we can't wipe the world off the map. let iran have the toys, by the time they blow up half the usa we'll have turned the entire middle east into a big smoking glass hole in the ground. and we probably still have room to talk, simply because we know better now. but then again, we'd also just talk anyway because we're americans and we have big mouths.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-11 09:34:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
That's not to mean that applies when killing is involved. That's a whole different basket of fruit.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-11 09:23:05 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by ThineJericho (user info) at 2006-01-11 04:31:19 (#)
Ranking: 0
Honest question for you. Using your analogy of the bullies/pipsqueak.
If you, personally, were the aforementioned bully (no questions on character or the like, simply accept the hypothetical basis), would you really want the pipsqueak to learn ju-jitsu so he could potentially be on equal footing?
Fairness doesn't exist. Power does.
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My argument isn't about what I *want* to see. It's about the reality of the situation. And now that you mention it, if I were the bully and I suddenly realized I had wronged someone, I would apologise and ask forgiveness. If he learned ju-jitsu and wanted to kick my ass, I would accept that I deserved it.
That's the honest truth.
Submitted by Nobb (user info) at 2006-01-11 07:33:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by Bellebrown (user info) at 2006-01-11 06:22:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Ahhh psh. It doesn't really matter in the long run who has nukes and who doesn't.
Will it matter if they get used? Nope - if they get used, those of us who will survive will forget who first pushed the button.
I doubt it will come to that though - all of us "in power" are fast handing it over to other countries by abusing them for profit.
We're pushing ourselves into become the third world what with our systematic rape of developing countries; We'll be on our knees begging for 30 cents and hour to make 6 shirts for some Chinese Nike rip-off company before long, because we've given all our work to the people who will do it cheapest. Sooner or later, we will be the cheapest labour - we'll have no choice.
So, I think worrying about some other country having Nukes is like worrying about whether it's going to rain. It doesn't really matter if you worry about it or not - You can hold meetings all you like; if it rains, it rains - if it doesn't it doesn't. You can't do much about it.
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2006-01-11 06:03:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Williamson, sayig Stabby has a first hand view of middleeastern culture is like saying my grandad has a first hand view of german culture, thats a piss poor argument
Submitted by ThineJericho (user info) at 2006-01-11 04:31:19 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Honest question for you. Using your analogy of the bullies/pipsqueak.
If you, personally, were the aforementioned bully (no questions on character or the like, simply accept the hypothetical basis), would you really want the pipsqueak to learn ju-jitsu so he could potentially be on equal footing?
Fairness doesn't exist. Power does.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-01-11 01:35:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I'll say it.
We (allies)have the nukes, we (allies)have the power.
Lets keep it that way.
fuck feelgood foriegn policy.
Submitted by Avals (user info) at 2006-01-11 01:27:05 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:15:09 (#)
Ranking: 0
Avals: The way I see it, if you guys want to blow each other up, go right ahead. As soon as you pounce on Iran, it'll be all out WWIII, but this time it will be about religion. People will see this as the fulfillment of long-awaited prophesy, and there will be nothing to stop it all going to hell. It's high time Israel stop using the United States as a big dumb oaf to be their muscle to keep things secular. If you want your religious war, go get it. There it is.
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I must be missing something here... For starters, didn't we do THE EXACT SAME THING that we're planning to do to Iran with Iraq like, 25 years ago? I'm sorry, I must have missed the whole WWIII thing that followed. Figures, I always miss all the fun stuff.
If you think all the Arab nations will rush to defend Iran at the first opportunity, you're very much mistaken. Despite what their fervent anti-Israel speeches may have you believe, most Arab nations don't really like each other all that much. I distinctly remember Iraq going to war against Iran, for example. Who woulda' thunk?
Anyway, like I said there's really no reason for invading Iran over this. A flight or two of F-15 fighter-bombers will take care of the problem just fine, and no one's going to go to war over something like that.
Regarding your very much idyllic call for brotherhood and understanding in the world, I think that if you'll look through history you'll find that it really is war that brings peace:
WWII - I distinctly recall many attempts for understanding and cooperation. Guess what? A world war broke out anyway. Now that it's over, though, Germany and Italy sure became some friendly countries, didn't they?
Japan - Check it out. Murder and carnage and blood-lust galore! Four years of war and two nukes and hey, they're manufacturing half the shit the we buy in our stores! Wonder how that happened?
Egypt - Hey ho! Took a couple of wars for Israel and Egypt to realize that they really should make peace, didn't it? How long do you think a "peaceful understanding" would've held? Until Egypt saw a breech in the defenses 's my guess.
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2006-01-11 00:54:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
i read the title on the most heated and i knew it was you. i just had to say that. i might read it later when i'm feeling more pissed off at the government and less concerned with whether or not i feel like making a booty call at 1am.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 22:26:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
A battle of song... Now this is the best kind of war.
With God on Our Side
Bob Dylan
Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.
Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.
Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.
Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.
When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.
I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war comes
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.
But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.
In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.
So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.
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War Pigs
Black Sabbath
Generals gathered in their masses,
just like witches at black masses.
Evil minds that plot destruction,
sorcerers of death's construction.
In the fields the bodies burning,
as the war machine keeps turning.
Death and hatred to mankind,
poisoning their brainwashed minds.
Oh lord, yeah!
Politicians hide themselves away.
They only started the war.
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah.
Time will tell on their power minds,
making war just for fun.
Treating people just like pawns in chess,
wait till their judgement day comes, yeah.
Now in darkness world stops turning,
ashes where the bodies burning.
No more War Pigs have the power,
Hand of God has struck the hour.
Day of judgement, God is calling,
on their knees the war pigs crawling.
Begging mercies for their sins,
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings.
Oh lord, yeah!
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Africa
Toto
I hear the drums echoing tonight
But she hears only whispers of some quiet conversation
She's coming in 12:30 flight
The moonlit wings reflect the stars that guide me towards salvation
I stopped an old man along the way,
Hoping to find some long forgotten words or ancinet melodies
He turned to me as if to say, Hurry boy, it's waiting there for you
It's gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do
I bless the rains down in Africa
Gonna take some time to do the things we never had
The wild dogs cry out in the night
As they grow restless longing for some solitary company
I know that I must do what's right
As sure as Kilimanjaro rises like Olympus above the Serangetti
I seek to cure what's deep inside, frightened of this thing that I've become
It's gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do
I bless the rains down in Africa
Gonna take some time to do the things we never had
Hurry boy, she's waiting there for you
It's gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do
I bless the rains down in Africa, I passed some rains down in Africa
I bless the rains down in Africa, I passed some rains down in Africa
I bless the rains down in Africa
Gonna take some time to do the things we never had
Just thought I'd throw that last one in there.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 21:28:23 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
And as long as your throwing out lyrics....
His eyes they closed and his last breath spoke
He had seen all to be seen
A life once full, now an empty vase
Wilt the blossoms on his early grave
Walk away me boy, walk away me boy
And by mornin' we'll be free
Wipe that golden tear from your mother dear
And raise what's left of the flag for me
Then the rosary beads count them one, two, three
Fell apart as they hit the floor
In our garb of black we must pay respect
To the colour we're born to mourn
Walk away me boys, walk away me boys
And by mornin' we'll be free
Wipe that golden tear from your mother dear
And raise what's left of the flag for me
In his place there grew an angry festered wound
Filled with hatred and remorse
Where I'd pick and scratch till the blood it matched
The silent rage now that fills my lungs
For there are many ways to kill a man they say
With bayonet, axe, or sword
But son a bullet fired from a shapeless guise
Leaves but the shell of a Thompson gun
Walk away me boys, walk away me boys
And by mornin' we'll be free
Wipe that golden tear from your mother dear
And raise what's left of the flag for me
From the East out to the Western shore
Where many men and many more will fall
But no angel flies with me tonight
Till freedom reigns on all
And curse the name for which we slaved our days
Till every man shall his kingdom come.
But sure as night turns day
Ends the passion play
Oh my God what have they done?
WIth madman's rage, well they dug our graves
But the dead rise again you fools.
Walk away me boys, walk away me boys
And by mornin' we'll be free.
Wipe that golden tear from your mother dear
And raise what's left of the flag for me
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 21:23:00 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
One day the real world will take your high hopes and wildest dreams and pulverize them to a pulp which it will mix with a large quantity of hydro-carbons and make it mandatory for you to drink it...and even charge you a high price for it.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 21:14:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You live in a world that is far different from reality.
No matter how many people think like you, there is some oil barron that will control more people in congress than if you were elected to it yourself.
No matter how many rallys you attend, no matter how many people you talk to, someone who inherited fame through their family will have a louder voice and more political pull.
No matter how many posts you do, no matter how many hits you get from google searches, your message will travel no further than a homeless man shouting about god on a street corner.
That's reality. Of course, believe that if we all stand up for what we believe in the world will start singing in unison.
When you think these thoughts, does your brain include "Get Together" by the youngbloods or "all we need is love" by the beatles?
Wake up and smell the coffee for God's sake.
Submitted by The_Yellow_Dart (user info) at 2006-01-10 21:11:43 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Battle flag in the bassinet
Oil and blood on the bayonet
Crowded downtown hit the floor
What are we fightin' for?
What are we fightin' for?
What are we fightin' for?
The world got smaller but the bombs got bigger
Holocaust on a hairpin trigger
Aint no game so forget the score
What are we fightin' for?
What are we fightin' for?
What are we fightin' for?
What are we fightin' for?
What will I tell my daughter?
What will you tell your son?
Where were all the doves?
That we were nothing but a shadow,
a faceless generation devoid of love?
The crucifix ain't no baseball bat
Tell me what kind of God is that?
Ain't nothing more godless than a war
So what are we fightin' for?
What are we fightin' for?
What are we fightin' for?
What are we fightin' for?
What will I tell my daughter?
What will you tell your son?
Where were all the doves?
That we were nothing but a shadow,
A faceless generation?
What are we fightin' for?
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-01-10 21:09:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
indeed
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 21:02:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Yes, I think I just played the Phil Collins card...
That's the rhetorical equivalent of slapping you in the face with a silk glove.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 20:57:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"This is just some lame internet forum, not hardly the place to really find some solution for world peace. Just think...someone at the United Nations gets paid or have positions of power to come up with solutions for these things and they can't do it. I doubt we can do it ourselves."
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That's an incredibly stupid statement.
Changing the world is not a matter of a few men in positions of authority taking the reigns and leading us to the fucking promised land while we rest on our laurels watching the fucking Oprah Winfrey show!!!
WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!!!
This is about each and every one of us chipping in to do our part to make this world something worth living in.
I just reminded myself of something there:
I must've dreamed a thousand dreams
Been haunted by a million screams
But I can hear the marching feet
They're moving into the street.
Now did you read the news today
They say the danger's gone away
But I can see the fire's still alight
There burning into the night.
There's too many men
Too many people
Making too many problems
And not much love to go round
Can't you see
This is a land of confusion.
This is the world we live in
And these are the hands we're given
Use them and let's start trying
To make it a place worth living in.
Ooh superman where are you now
When everything's gone wrong somehow
The men of steel, the men of power
Are losing control by the hour.
This is the time
This is the place
So we look for the future
But there's not much love to go round
Tell me why, this is a land of confusion.
This is the world we live in
And these are the hands we're given
Use them and let's start trying
To make it a place worth living in.
I remember long ago -
Ooh when the sun was shining
Yes and the stars were bright
All through the night
And the sound of your laughter
As I held you tight
So long ago -
I won't be coming home tonight
My generation will put it right
We're not just making promises
That we know, we'll never keep.
Too many men
There's too many people
Making too many problems
And not much love to go round
Can't you see
This is a land of confusion.
Now this is the world we live in
And these are the hands we're given
Use them and let's start trying
To make it a place worth fighting for.
This is the world we live in
And these are the names we're given
Stand up and let's start showing
Just where our lives are going to.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 20:51:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"[Stabkill's] been to war in Iraq and was in Korea. He's got quite a good first-hand view of both."
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I hardly think that being in Iraq during wartime is going to be indicitive of their culture, and just visiting a place doesn't mean you've understood it. Don't get me wrong, that's pretty essential, but it's not everything.
Stabkill, I know you think you're speaking the real truth here. I know you think you're saying those things that are on everyone's mind, but people are too nice and politically correct to say it. I know you think you see the future of events in the world. But I'm here to remind you, nothing's certain and if we can't hold out hope that someday man will be able to leave behind his petty fetters of war and dischord for higher aims, if we can't believe that someday truth and understanding will prevail over the forces of ignorace, then what's left to fight for?
If people around the world are being told of America's tyranny, then it's up to us to combat that by showing people that's not what we're about instead of reinforcing their existing views. Be an example of the best our country has to offer, not an indicator of it's paranoia, ignorance, and endless suspicion. For when someone is suspicious already, they are more apt to be swayed by a mere rumor instead of concrete evidence of wrongdoing. (SEE: IRAQI INVASION.)
It's unfortunate for people in countries like North Korea because they'll probably never really know the difference, but their lack of civil liberties and freedom of press should remind us of everything we should not take for granted or ever be willing to give up. It should also further illustrate the point I was making in this post about the power of the nuclear threat.
One could easily ask why we would be so cavalier about storming into Iraq while countries like North Korea are just as oppressive. And the easy answer would be because North Korea probably has nukes already, or at the very least has the backing of China, which does, not to mention a million man standing army.
It seems to me that war is more of a sport to people than anything. It's a giant game of Risk or Chess to the geeky politicians who want to feel drunk on the power of holding armies under their thumbs and controlling the fates of nations at their whim. It takes an educated and informed public to keep from being used to these ends.
That being said, I believe in a time for action and I believe in a time for retribution, but life is far too precious and short as it is to make war the rule instead of the exception. We should all do what we can to be instruments of peace instead of spreaders of fear. What has a man accomplished by spreading fear or accurately predicting future events? It's not like anyone is going to show up at your doorstep with a 'Prediction of the Month' award. Unless you think it's going to help achieve a positive end by promoting a healthy fear or caution, I don't see the point in amplifying the situation. There is just nothing in that that will make the world a better place in which to live.
I'm not saying I know what I would do if I was in a position of power right now with regard to Iran and its nuclear program, but I do know that unless we revamp our national foreign policy across the board and start being more diplomatic and less warlike, more understanding and less prejudicial, more educated and informed and less ignorant and quick to judge, we're going to have a long row to hoe in the coming decades.
If we were really so afraid for the welfare of our country, our children, hell...our own lives...we'd be doing something about global warming right now so that this planet will remain habitable to our kind for millenia to come. That threat is really no less immeninet, and yet we ignore it because people can rationalize it in their minds that the consequences are far enough into the future to not warrant any intervention on their part.
It's madness.
We're all mad.
Let's try to change that. I think it's our obligation.
We were given an extraordinary gift to live out a life on this planet, and I think it would be an inconscionable waste to squander it because we couldn't reconcile our intelligence with our passions.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 20:14:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Williamson, you put that better than I could....
From what I understand, most people think of Palestinians as lower than dirt. Maybe the kurds are the only other lower-treated muslim group in the entire middle east.
When Israel invaded Lebanon to rid them of the Palestinians that were fighting and occupying the area, most of the locals cheered the Israelis...true story.
And then there was a recent story where some palestinians ran through a wall at gaza into egypt to raise hell and the average Egyptian seemed disgusted by them as a people rather than the ones who came over to take people hostage.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 20:07:24 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I do know the differences in cultures and the reasons Japan went to war, which had nothing to do with buddhism but everything to do with nationalism and ...well, basically they were racists that took advantage of their superior military power to take over their neighbors.
This is just some lame internet forum, not hardly the place to really find some solution for world peace. Just think...someone at the United Nations gets paid or have positions of power to come up with solutions for these things and they can't do it. I doubt we can do it ourselves.
I don't blame the USA, but I would appreciate the USA keep its hands out of other governments business (except when it comes to nuclear weapons perhaps) so we aren't blamed always when they suck. We get no advantage to "help out" but sure get shit on when things go bad.
And the arab muslim thing probably has alot more to do with the spread of their local radical style of Islam rather than their blood. But it has spread through most arab areas, not asia...yet.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 20:01:14 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I was just making a comment not to be taken as serious... of course you can't sum up all of asia as "buddhist" and peaceful. But currently would you dispute the attitudes of arab muslim nations versus asian muslim nations are different? They are. Each has their own unique problems and the Iranians are persian so the vast majority aren't even really Arab. Funny enough, Iran was traditionally the most relaxed muslim nation in the past and enjoyed many freedoms others did not before the 1979 overthrow of the corrupt shah.
"brotherhood" is a joke and for people to achieve some kind of mutual respect for one another, you'd have to toss religion right out the window. That is probably easier to do in Europe and even the USA than islamic nations.
In all seriousness, if you want "peace" you would have to address real serious issues and SOLVE them instead of talk about them....the UN was supposed to be some kind of tool for this, but it is a pure joke of an organization. All talk, no action...solves nothing.
Do you want world peace? Petition for a kurdish independant state... solve the israel/palestinian thing...let africa die of aids ...solve the northern Ireland issues...solve columbia's problems...and on and on. Can it be done? You blame the government of the USA for its actions over the world and yet Kim Jong-Il's government (along with many others) drive into the heads of their people that Americans are the devil. Do you know what the North Koreans have been told about Americans?
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2006-01-10 19:53:38 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
ETS, no offence, but you can not say this: "Once again, I believe we're witnessing, here, the symptoms of Stabkill's prejudice and lack of first-hand understanding of these cultures."
He's been to war in Iraq and was in Korea. He's got quite a good first-hand view of both.
I disagree with his theory though. I would say that both Asians and Arabs are equally dangerous and war-like, the difference is their methods and purpose. Arabs are strongly religious and highly factional. Look at Palestine. No matter what any Palestinian authority says you'll still have a whole bunch of Pally militants fighting for their own cause. On the other hand, Asians are highly nationalistic and authoritarian. They'll never disrespect their governments or nation, unlike Arabs who only see authority in the Mosques.
The moments the Asians are involved in a national struggle they are just as willing to blow themselves up as the Arabs are (kamikazes, waves of suicidal vietnamese). Asians, within their nations, are an indivisable force while Arabs are broken up into hundreds and hundreds of factions, sects and god knows what. The reason for that would probably be thousands of years of stable kingdoms in Asia that rarely changed borders, as opposed to ever-changing, ever-invaded, ever-invading Arab emirates (combined with a stronger, more militaristic philosophical and religious base of Islam).
That's the way I see it anyway.
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2006-01-10 19:43:34 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 19:06:42 (#)
Ranking: 0
And I forgot to add:
Maybe you better check how the governments of Europe are responding to Iran right now. It is a hell of alot more harsh than they did with Iraq. If the governments of these nations, even Iran's "ally" Russia, are not thrilled by developments there, something is seriously wrong.
=-=--==--=-=
I'm sorry; I haven't actually been reading up on this whole Iran thing as much as Americans would have (the few Americans who read, anyway). But I heard that Russia was exporting nuclear expertise to the Iranians to teach them how they can enrich uranium (for whatever purpose). That may be only a half-truth (like i said, I don't know how this whole thing's playing out) but if that's the case how could Russia not be happy? They're the ones making it possible.
Excuse my ignorance if I'm completely wrong. I really haven't been following this at all.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 19:43:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
In response to Stabkill...he said: "it is strange how asians overall don't have that violent streak. (Could it be the generations upon generations of buddhist-styled culture before them?)"
I think if you went back over their history, you'd see they have their fair share of warlike behavoir. Even so, the very fact that you have that perception of them sort of proves my point.
Perception of our so-called 'ememies' dictates how we see the possibility of peace with that set of people.
Stabkill, here, has a certain perception of Asians as being more peaceful a people in general than middle-eastern Arabs, which, while having statistically little foundation over the course of centuries or millenia is nevertheless supported by the fact that most American conflicts of our lifetime has centered around the middle east, as opposed to, say, Japan in WWII, Korea in the early 50's, or the ever-present Vietnam. Whereas, if Stabkill had been from my grandfather's generation, he might hold Asians with equal suspicion.
It also is of note that Stabkill has clearly supported his claim that Asians seem more peaceful because of a predominantly Buddhist ideology as opposed to an Islamic one. Once again, I believe we're witnessing, here, the symptoms of Stabkill's prejudice and lack of first-hand understanding of these cultures. One could also make an argument that, as predominantly Christian nations, America, Britain, France, Germany, Russia, and others should have long ago adopted a sweeping philosophy of brotherhood and non-violent resistance to tyranny around the world, but in case after case throughout history, we find instances where our own people are capable of UNSPEAKABLE atrocities regardless of their nationality and regardless of their religion. And in all cases, fear and paranoia of a scapegoat or a perceived enemy are a factor.
Brotherhood is the answer, people. I don't know if there's a way I can say that which won't sound 'pussy' to some of you, or ill-informed and idealist to others, but when you boil it all down to the crux of the issue, the entire world is in each of us, and if we don't start with ourselves and have a little hope, then we're only furthering the spread of coldness and pain and fear.
It's a disease that finds a host in each of us. That's something we have to keep in mind always. There is no substitute for vigilance in this ongoing struggle for some semblance of righteousness. The battle is within the heart of every man and every woman.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 19:19:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by SilvrWolf (user info) at 2006-01-10 18:21:24 (#)
Ranking: 2
+2 for using 'behoove' in a metaphor with a bull. I don't know why that tickled me so.
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hahah.... I leave it to you, Jeremy, to notice that subtle bit of comedic gold in a wasteland of political seriousness. :P
I just got finished watching the Alito hearings on fucking C-SPAN. I think I'm getting old.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 19:17:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Don't forget that if Iran gets nukes, you can bet on Saudi Arabia going after them next
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2006-01-10 19:13:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Errr? More harsh than invading?
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 19:06:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
And I forgot to add:
Maybe you better check how the governments of Europe are responding to Iran right now. It is a hell of alot more harsh than they did with Iraq. If the governments of these nations, even Iran's "ally" Russia, are not thrilled by developments there, something is seriously wrong.
This means the leaders of those nations take issues a hell of alot more seriously than internet peons like ourselves (yes, you included as well). Iran having nukes? The only people who would approve of that are jew-haters and/or anti-americans...of course they ignore their own future would probably be adversely affected as well.
Submitted by tinactin (user info) at 2006-01-10 19:05:04 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
I kind of admire your recent evolution into a liberal Jack McCallum.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 19:03:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The funny thing is, there are idiots in the world (the vast majority) that thinks it is the USA's problem. But what do you think all these countries will turn their anger to when the USA is gone? It sure isn't "mission over" until your little part of the globe is finished off just the same.
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2006-01-10 19:00:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Stabkill's gonna go the way of Koolmang and so many others, too much trolling.
'Cept stabby was never entertaining in the first place.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 18:56:07 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
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Submitted by HighVoltage900 (user info) at 2006-01-10 17:28:27 (#)
Ranking: 2
While I agree there will never be world peace, your definition of peace by war is stupid. People say that trying to be all mystic, but listen to the words.
War.....means that there is no peace RIGHT NOW! If I am at war, we are not at peace.
And Asian societies had plenty of shit. Ever heard of the Pacific Theatre in WW2?
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Peace will only be obtained when everyone "gets along" and in some groups, that will never happen. The arabs will never, ever, accept the existance of Israel and their hatred of Jews has grown to nazi-like proportions. What is going to solve this problem? War. THEN we have peace. OBVIOUSLY we can't have peace DURING war....it is afterward.
There will never be world peace as long as certain groups exist and the only way to achieve peace is to eliminate those groups. How long that peace would last would remain to be seen as new conflicts would arise and some of those could potentially lead to armed conflict.
Nothing can tune me out to a fool that says "World peace must be achieved now!" because it is impossible unless you kill everyone on earth except one person. And if they are a manic-depressive they could still be at war with themselves...so why bother.
Anyway, Iran will never be allowed to have nukes (unless they secretly have them already) because Israel WILL attack before this happens. With 60-70% of the entire population of Israel living in Tel-Aviv and an Iranian leader saying "Israel must be wiped off the map" it is too much of a risk to take.
Imagine this scenario: Iran gets nukes and now Israel has a missile headed toward them in the sky from that direction...how will they respond? Or how about Tel Aviv going up in a mushroom cloud from a hezbollah-provided delivery? How will Israel respond to that? You can kiss Damascus, Tehran, and probably Mecca goodbye. They'd have nothing to lose at that point, would they?\\
It is in the world's best interest that Iran never aquires nukes. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.
Submitted by The_Yellow_Dart (user info) at 2006-01-10 18:51:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 17:08:24 (#)
Ranking: 0
There is only one way to obtain "peace" and that is by war. Complete elimination of the groups that will never be able to live along side the others in harmony.
________
Quite possibly one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard. ETS addressed the first sentence.
Once you eliminate your enemies in hopes that all will be dandy you may be shocked to find you discover people within your own "group" that you dislike. Basically, with that mentality you'd constantly _find_ someone to be against and hate until all that's left is you; alone on the planet. Good luck.
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2006-01-10 18:45:06 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Williamson I may be wrong (thats I lie, I'm not), But I think Iran is already a democracy
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2006-01-10 18:40:23 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The main reason the Iranians want nukes is to stop Bush invading.
They don't plan on bombing anyone, they're just scared that america or an america backed israel will go all iraq on their arse.
Submitted by SilvrWolf (user info) at 2006-01-10 18:21:24 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
+2 for using 'behoove' in a metaphor with a bull. I don't know why that tickled me so.
Oh, it could just be the Vicodin. Damned dentist. I'll try to come back when I'm more coherent and this is on Heated.
Submitted by williamson (user info) at 2006-01-10 18:13:25 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
We have no moral foothold over them but we still have to look out for our arses. I say we give the Iranians the N. Korean option. We could build a Nuclear Reactor in a neighbouring country (even though we own Iraq, Kuwait would be a better option, and sell the Iranians Nuclear power in exchange for diplomatic concessions (weapons inspections, furthering democracy etc.).
Although I agree we have no moral arguement I still don't want these guys running around with nukes or even holding any sort of military power. It's just unsafe.
Submitted by HighVoltage900 (user info) at 2006-01-10 17:28:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 17:08:24 (#)
Ranking: 0
There is only one way to obtain "peace" and that is by war. Complete elimination of the groups that will never be able to live along side the others in harmony.
Religious war? Sure. Arabs and Islam seems to be a combination that leads to bad things... it is strange how asians overall don't have that violent streak. (Could it be the generations upon generations of buddhist-styled culture before them?)
There will never be world peace, get over it.
----
While I agree there will never be world peace, your definition of peace by war is stupid. People say that trying to be all mystic, but listen to the words.
War.....means that there is no peace RIGHT NOW! If I am at war, we are not at peace.
And Asian societies had plenty of shit. Ever heard of the Pacific Theatre in WW2?
Submitted by Drone_of_Industry (user info) at 2006-01-10 17:23:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
There is only one way to obtain "peace" and that is by war. Complete elimination of the groups that will never be able to live along side the others in harmony.
There will never be world peace, get over it.
tisk tisk Stabkill. So you're saying there won't be peace unless everyone's dead. That's true I guess, but it sorta defeats the purpose.
We gotta do what we can in this life to advocate peace.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 17:08:24 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
There is only one way to obtain "peace" and that is by war. Complete elimination of the groups that will never be able to live along side the others in harmony.
Religious war? Sure. Arabs and Islam seems to be a combination that leads to bad things... it is strange how asians overall don't have that violent streak. (Could it be the generations upon generations of buddhist-styled culture before them?)
There will never be world peace, get over it.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:56:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:24:37 (#)
Ranking: 0
This is the kind of thinking from all leftist idiots and all anti-americans of the world. And it is the same kind of thinking that will lead to their own destruction as well as others around them who think otherwise.
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I'd rather die than live in a world where peace is regarded as 'idiotic'.
There are some times when all a man can do is pull the barrel of the gun to his head and tell your enemy if they're going to do it to make it quick. They only want to hurt you because they think you are out to hurt them.
That's the way the world goes round.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:48:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:13:12 (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm not saying you are wrong in saying that hate and fear are useless. But if the leader in the opposite camp doesn't care, no amount of hugs are gonna help.
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We're in agreement here.
This is why it's so important to talk things through and air grievances in a forum where people will truly listen. When's the last time we tried peace? I don't see where it's ever really been given a chance. I don't see where in the 1500 years or so since this religious conflict has been brewing where both sides have gotten together and decided that killing is not the answer. There's always been someone there with their own selfish interests in mind. They need to be shown this is not the way, and the only way to do that is to forgive and to offer your other cheek.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:40:38 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:20:40 (#)
Ranking: 0
If you can't see a difference in having a country like the USA, UK, France, etc. having nuclear weapons versus other countries ...
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You know what the difference is...
You and I are on this side and they are on that side. That's it.
It's all based on cultural and racial distrust stemming, in large part, by the way we've treated their people and their regions of the world through the years. Again, I go back to my analogy of the blind bull. There will be a wall at some point if we don't to dismantle this culture of fear.
Submitted by The_Yellow_Dart (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:34:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:18:08 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by The_Yellow_Dart (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:17:12 (#)
Ranking: 1
America's debt is over 4 trillion dollars
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7
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7 > 4 ;)
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:26:07 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by The_Yellow_Dart (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:17:12 (#)
Ranking: 1
America's debt is over 4 trillion dollars; almost equal to the amount they've spent on nuclear weapons since the 50's. If America didn't perpetuate the arms race they could have afforded universal health care or things like that.
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Thank you.
Defense is one thing, but global domination is another. We've been so stuck in this mode of trying to prove we're the best, we've forgotten the reasons we could be.
We've forgotten that giving up rights should not be an option. "Give me liberty or give me death!"
In a nation of Christians, we've forgot Jesus's most important teaching of all: Love thy neighbor as yourself and treat others as you'd have them treat you.
We've forgotten, (and I don't know if we ever really knew this), that it isn't enough to go to the moon, as an example, just so you can say you've been there and so you can say you beat the other guy. You have to have a vision for all of mankind to be a true leader, not just a selfish motivation to exert power over and control others for your own ends.
If you don't have that, and if your intentions aren't solely for peace on earth, you're damaged goods.
If you've forgotten, through the cynical process of growing up, that forgiveness is possible, and that love is truly the answer to all these problems, then you might as well sell your soul now, because you've already lost it.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:24:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
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Submitted by Barnymeinhoff (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:28:59 (#)
Ranking: 2
I trust the Iranians with nukes more than I trust Americans. but then Americans make better films....oh ots all so confusing. (opens beer and watches Eastenders.)
Iranians my be more prone to aggressive fundamentalist inspired terrorist atrocities but then Americans have a proven track record in dropping nukes on civillians.
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This is the kind of thinking from all leftist idiots and all anti-americans of the world. And it is the same kind of thinking that will lead to their own destruction as well as others around them who think otherwise.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:20:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Blah blah blah.
Give Hamas nuclear weapons...blah blah blah
Who cares? blah blah blah.
If you can't see a difference in having a country like the USA, UK, France, etc. having nuclear weapons versus other countries ... maybe perhaps Iran, Libya, Venezuela, Cuba, Syria, etc... you have serious issues. And I believe you do because I don't think you see a difference at all.
It is bad enough North Korea has nukes, so what the fuck? Your philosophy: If we got em', everyone should have them! That's real intelligent thinking right there.
Submitted by HighVoltage900 (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:19:17 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Avals: The way I see it, if you guys want to blow each other up, go right ahead. As soon as you pounce on Iran, it'll be all out WWIII, but this time it will be about religion. People will see this as the fulfillment of long-awaited prophesy, and there will be nothing to stop it all going to hell. It's high time Israel stop using the United States as a big dumb oaf to be their muscle to keep things secular. If you want your religious war, go get it. There it is.
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You realize that even if every single nation within 100 miles of Israel attacked it, I would still give Israel 2:1 odds in FAVOR of it winning?
Israel has the best (better than American, no offense to our guys, but Israeli military is crazy) individual soldiers. They have been trained by the best. They have the best (per pilot/plane) airforce. They have the best navy of the Arabic countries.
The only problem would be after the Israelis destroy the Arabic military. It's not their military that does the most harm, it's the attrition afterwards by suicide bombers and the like.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:18:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by The_Yellow_Dart (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:17:12 (#)
Ranking: 1
America's debt is over 4 trillion dollars
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7
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:17:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:56:58 (#)
Ranking: 0
ETS- I think you have hard time differencing reality and ideology.
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Submitted by Garrik (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:14:49 (#)
Ranking: 2
+2 because you mean well, even if I think you're being impractical
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I'll let the uberboard answer for me from now on...
"You must become the change you want to see in the world." - Ghandi
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Submitted by The_Yellow_Dart (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:17:12 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
America's debt is over 4 trillion dollars; almost equal to the amount they've spent on nuclear weapons since the 50's. If America didn't perpetuate the arms race they could have afforded universal health care or things like that.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:15:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:26:52 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:45:20 (#)
Ranking: 0
Peace and understanding is the only answer...anything else would be simply delaying certain destruction...on ALL sides
=================
You do realize that this is like the final step in revelations before the end of the world
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And I'm trying to help prevent it.
Help me.
Avals: The way I see it, if you guys want to blow each other up, go right ahead. As soon as you pounce on Iran, it'll be all out WWIII, but this time it will be about religion. People will see this as the fulfillment of long-awaited prophesy, and there will be nothing to stop it all going to hell. It's high time Israel stop using the United States as a big dumb oaf to be their muscle to keep things secular. If you want your religious war, go get it. There it is.
Submitted by Garrik (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:14:49 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
+2 because you mean well, even if I think you're being impractical
Submitted by HighVoltage900 (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:13:34 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
"Even a nut understands mutually assured destruction. Governments are in the business of making things better for their country, not seeing their citizens blown to bits. (The exceptions to this rule would find a way of reaking havoc no matter what we said.)"
The exceptions to the rule are the thing we need to watch out for. They are the Hitlers, Caligulas, Saddams. They are people who would rather have their entire country burn and die with them than them die alone.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:13:12 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:06:44 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:50:44 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:45:20 (#)
Ranking: 0
Peace and understanding is the only answer...anything else would be simply delaying certain destruction...on ALL sides.
===
Chamberlain and Lebrun tried that in pre-WWII, it sure did went well didn't it? Sometimes, war is inevitable. I don't know if that's the case with Iran, but you should keep all options on the table. Just because you realize that peace is the only answer, doesn't mean the nut on the other side of the table agrees.
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Even a nut understands mutually assured destruction. Governments are in the business of making things better for their country, not seeing their citizens blown to bits. (The exceptions to this rule would find a way of reaking havoc no matter what we said.)
We might not like to believe this because, frankly, we've been conditioned not to, but Iranians, Irqis, Afghans, etc. are people too. They're not all radical nutcases. They bleed when cut and they bite when bitten.
I can't help but see this fundamental distrust as a problem. And hate and fear are a viscious circle in which no one wins.
====
I'm not saying Iraniansn and Iraqis and the like aren't people. That's your interpretation of my comment. These people are powerless. I'm referring to leaders. I don't think the Germans of 1939-45 were bloodthirsty aryan bavarian assholes, but their leader sure had a few short-circuits.
I'm not saying you are wrong in saying that hate and fear are useless. But if the leader in the opposite camp doesn't care, no amount of hugs are gonna help.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:09:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:45:20 (#)
Ranking: 0
That should be left entirely up to your country in my opinion. But how's that really any different than them bombing you? How's that any different than any invasion by any country into territory that is NOT your own? That only serves to reinforce the idea of the people of Arab nations that your country is the enemy.
Peace and understanding is the only answer...anything else would be simply delaying certain destruction...on ALL sides.
----------------------------
As recently as a month ago the leader of Iran called for wiping Israel off the map.
When has Israel ever made a claim like that, or when has Israel ever invaded a nation without being invaded first?
Lets put it this way. YOu have a house with your wife and kids. Your neighbor has tried to break in with a knife. He has thrown bricks through your windows. He has sworn that he will kill you and your family. If you see him in his front yard about to put bullets in a gun, will you try and stop him?
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:06:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:50:44 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:45:20 (#)
Ranking: 0
Peace and understanding is the only answer...anything else would be simply delaying certain destruction...on ALL sides.
===
Chamberlain and Lebrun tried that in pre-WWII, it sure did went well didn't it? Sometimes, war is inevitable. I don't know if that's the case with Iran, but you should keep all options on the table. Just because you realize that peace is the only answer, doesn't mean the nut on the other side of the table agrees.
------------------
Even a nut understands mutually assured destruction. Governments are in the business of making things better for their country, not seeing their citizens blown to bits. (The exceptions to this rule would find a way of reaking havoc no matter what we said.)
We might not like to believe this because, frankly, we've been conditioned not to, but Iranians, Irqis, Afghans, etc. are people too. They're not all radical nutcases. They bleed when cut and they bite when bitten.
I can't help but see this fundamental distrust as a problem. And hate and fear are a viscious circle in which no one wins.
Submitted by HighVoltage900 (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:06:00 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:56:58 (#)
Ranking: 0
ETS- I think you have hard time differencing reality and ideology. Things don't change overnight and no amount of love and flowers from you won't change the deep-seeded hatred that is found all over the place for any reason you can think of.
----
I agree. There are too many grudges and blood feuds to just put shit away. Look at Israel. If they suddenly lost all of their weapons, they would be destroyed. I mean the Palestinians already throw rocks, and the Israelis have assualt rifles. Give them both rocks, and of course the Palestinians have had more practice, they will school the Israelis.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 16:04:32 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by HighVoltage900 (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:45:32 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:33:21 (#)
Ranking: 0
HighVoltage - I'm hoping for chemical warfare, being smack dab between Philly and New York City I'm looking forward to the Blister Agent Cloud to settle right over me.
----
I was once talking to a guy in Kansas. He found out I lived in DC and was flipping out. Then he got real quiet. Here is the convo at this point:
Kansas guy: Wait you live in DC. With the President and stuff right?
Me: Uh...last time I checked.
KG: So...what are you gonna do if a nuke hits?
Me (with a shit eating grin): Vaporize most likely.
===
What is that? A contest of the most likely to be terrorized? And the way you deal with this TERROR, wow, you guys are phlegmatic badasses.
Hey did you know that just recently they found plans of the Montreal and the London metros in one of the perpetrator of the Madrid bombings? That indicates that we might be the next target after England and Spain.
This is a pretty credible threat compares to yours. What do I win?
No, seriously, shut the fuck up.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:56:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
ETS- I think you have hard time differencing reality and ideology. Things don't change overnight and no amount of love and flowers from you won't change the deep-seeded hatred that is found all over the place for any reason you can think of.
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:48:31 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
HOLY SHIT, BRAD IS THIS YOU....ITS ME EDDIE!
Submitted by userpete86 (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:47:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
So we should kill weaklings before they learn how to fight...?
Wait... reconsider?
Submitted by HighVoltage900 (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:45:32 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:33:21 (#)
Ranking: 0
HighVoltage - I'm hoping for chemical warfare, being smack dab between Philly and New York City I'm looking forward to the Blister Agent Cloud to settle right over me.
----
I was once talking to a guy in Kansas. He found out I lived in DC and was flipping out. Then he got real quiet. Here is the convo at this point:
Kansas guy: Wait you live in DC. With the President and stuff right?
Me: Uh...last time I checked.
KG: So...what are you gonna do if a nuke hits?
Me (with a shit eating grin): Vaporize most likely.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:44:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"So we can't just run out in front of everyone and say 'Hey, we give...we'll destroy our nukes because we want the world to do it too' That's far to romantic of an idea."
--------------------------
Not saying we should, but we should take the opposite stance on the issue, encouraging them to develop their country and increase the knowledge of the human race. We should welcome them as a developed nation and offer them assistance on the road to peace and prosperity for all nations. we should work to eliminate this fear that sinks its talons into us and divides us. We have to afford them the same rights that we have to enrich uranium for civil purposes and, if need be, for weapons purposes. We'd be hypocrites not to allow them the same priviledge we've taken for ourselves. If we don't, what we're really saying to them is..."we have given you a reason to target us".
I guess, in the end, it's the old story of 'whose side do you choose'?
When I was a little boy, I remember one day out playing with a couple neighborhood friends. we were throwing rocks into a ditch or something like that that boys do, when across the creek we say a kid playing by himself. His name was Eddie. No one at school really liked him because he was poor and smelled sometimes. When you're a kid and impressioned by the shit you see on TV, things like class systems creep their way in early.
My friends started making fun of Eddie and throwing rocks in his direction. He just wanted to be left alone. He hadn't done anything to them. He hadn't harmed them in any way. His only crime was not being popular. His only crime was that he didn't conform to what the other kids thought he should be. I turned to my 'friends' and told them to stop. They wouldn't listen. With that, I crossed the ditch and started throwing rocks back.
I spent the rest of the day playing in the dirt with Eddie. We became friends after that.
People need to know that hatred knows no cultural boundaries. Injustice knows no religion or class. Evil is something that is stamped out with brotherhood and love, and it's really just that simple. Anything else you've come to believe in this life has been learned, and is nothing but muck that cloud the basic truths every child understands.
Submitted by fluff (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:38:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"What if the United States had not won the nuclear arms race? What if a communist nation had developed the bomb first?"
In what fucking uiniverse are you living?
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:33:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
HighVoltage - I'm hoping for chemical warfare, being smack dab between Philly and New York City I'm looking forward to the Blister Agent Cloud to settle right over me.
Submitted by HighVoltage900 (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:28:17 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I would also like to point out (I'm sure this makes a few of you happy) that if terrorists decide to nuke America I will be one of the first ones vaporized. So understand I say everything I have to say with that over my head.
I love living in DC.
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:26:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:45:20 (#)
Ranking: 0
Peace and understanding is the only answer...anything else would be simply delaying certain destruction...on ALL sides
=================
You do realize that this is like the final step in revelations before the end of the world
Submitted by HighVoltage900 (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:22:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
And while we are discussing things on this thread, lets +2 it kay?
Iran has less to fear from the US and more to fear from Israel. Israel would rather the US step in and do something, but if we don't you can bet the mussad will overrun Iran and the 200 nukes Israel has stockpiled will be used.
Submitted by HighVoltage900 (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:10:36 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
What if the United States had not won the nuclear arms race? What if a communist nation had developed the bomb first?
-----
What if you were a Russian kid in 1945. Holy shit America has the Bomb. We are fucked.
And yet we let them get nukes. Why? Because if they are a certain level of power, we won't touch them. We had nothing to fear if the Soviet Union got nukes because we still could have given them 7 levels of shit if they threw down with us.
Submitted by GodLovesALittleLovin (user info) at 2006-01-10 15:01:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
gah, I agree to an extent, but still, gah..................gah gah gah gah this is a futile topic to discuss if I can be so blunt.
Submitted by Avals (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:58:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:45:20 (#)
Ranking: 0
That should be left entirely up to your country in my opinion. But how's that really any different than them bombing you? How's that any different than any invasion by any country into territory that is NOT your own? That only serves to reinforce the idea of the people of Arab nations that your country is the enemy.
Peace and understanding is the only answer...anything else would be simply delaying certain destruction...on ALL sides.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Bullshit. Israel isn't going to sit by and watch the country whose president just recently talked about erasing it from the map obtain nuclear capability. If America and the UN are too lazy or chickenshit to do anything about it, then we'll just do it the old fashioned way: WITH THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF HIGH-EXPLOSIVE GOODNESS!
Submitted by BLITZKREIG_BOB (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:58:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Bombs away, motherbitches.
Submitted by MistressFist (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:56:39 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:45:58 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by MistressFist (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:24:56 (#)
Ranking: 0
Caul,
What do you think should happen?
===
Whatever happens, I hope the EU and the US will pull together as one, unlike Iraq. Maybe if the Bush administration hold their horses a little and that Chirac pushes aside is silly Gaullist little agenda for a minute, they'll be able to make a coherent consortium. Then maybe Iran, and other extremists for that matter, will feel isolated and powerless against a homogenous bloc. Right now, we can't even agree on anything between allies, much less deal with an ennemy that size. That's what I think. As for the measure that needs to be taken against Iran rest, well, I have no idea. But I wish it'll be settled before people start panicking again: "OMG, THEY WILL NUKE US! T.E.R.R.O.R.!!!" I don't think it's very healthy for democracies to endure repeated fear campaigns.
That is my unimportant opinion. And considering that you've been bitching about me for the past week, I wonder why you're interested in it.
Bitch.
:-)
=======================
I liked your answer actually. That's good stuff.
Homo.
:-)
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:50:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:45:20 (#)
Ranking: 0
Peace and understanding is the only answer...anything else would be simply delaying certain destruction...on ALL sides.
===
Chamberlain and Lebrun tried that in pre-WWII, it sure did went well didn't it? Sometimes, war is inevitable. I don't know if that's the case with Iran, but you should keep all options on the table. Just because you realize that peace is the only answer, doesn't mean the nut on the other side of the table agrees.
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:47:45 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Actually ETS I do see your point, to an extent.
You are right in the sense that its not right and its not fair that the US acts this way.
But
The problem has gone on for a long while now and only just recently are people starting to wake up.
So we can't just run out in front of everyone and say 'Hey, we give...we'll destroy our nukes because we want the world to do it too' That's far to romantic of an idea.
You see this long history of this attitude by the US has created a large amount of enemies, so we can't leave ourselves helpless. Our enemies will not say 'hey they got rid of their nukes so we forgive and won't try some shit'
That won't happen, so it has to be a slower systematic removal of all nukes around the world. In the meantime you have to keep tabs, as the world moderator (like it or not it is our role), to keep those that are potentially dangerous to not only themselves but others, under wraps.
Now I'm sure not all of the government feels the same as I do, but there are some, and they are right and eventually the will get it straight.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:45:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by MistressFist (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:24:56 (#)
Ranking: 0
Caul,
What do you think should happen?
===
Whatever happens, I hope the EU and the US will pull together as one, unlike Iraq. Maybe if the Bush administration hold their horses a little and that Chirac pushes aside is silly Gaullist little agenda for a minute, they'll be able to make a coherent consortium. Then maybe Iran, and other extremists for that matter, will feel isolated and powerless against a homogenous bloc. Right now, we can't even agree on anything between allies, much less deal with an ennemy that size. That's what I think. As for the measure that needs to be taken against Iran rest, well, I have no idea. But I wish it'll be settled before people start panicking again: "OMG, THEY WILL NUKE US! T.E.R.R.O.R.!!!" I don't think it's very healthy for democracies to endure repeated fear campaigns.
That is my unimportant opinion. And considering that you've been bitching about me for the past week, I wonder why you're interested in it.
Bitch.
:-)
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:45:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Avals (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:39:07 (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm pretty sure that if the US refuses to do anything about it then we'll just step in and bomb the shit out of their reactors ... or homes, whatever.
-----------------
That should be left entirely up to your country in my opinion. But how's that really any different than them bombing you? How's that any different than any invasion by any country into territory that is NOT your own? That only serves to reinforce the idea of the people of Arab nations that your country is the enemy.
Peace and understanding is the only answer...anything else would be simply delaying certain destruction...on ALL sides.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:40:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:35:29 (#)
Ranking: 0
You must understand that the US is not a terroristic threat...to itself.
-----------------------
NOW we hit the meat of the fucking issue.
Where is the golden rule in that? Why is it we've been reared to believe it's ok to act like spoiled children as long as your entire country is doing it?
Surely you see my point here.
Submitted by Avals (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:39:07 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm pretty sure that if the US refuses to do anything about it then we'll just step in and bomb the shit out of their reactors ... or homes, whatever.
Submitted by Ditka (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:37:36 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
agreed
Submitted by Smack_Fuck (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:37:31 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The CIA gave nuke blueprints to Tehran.
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=131822&Sn=WORL&IssueID=28291
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:35:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You must understand that the US is not a terroristic threat...to itself.
Being the baddest dog on the block goes a long way.
That said I'd be more comfortable if there were no nukes at all.
Actually I like the idea of no guns or nukes but reverting back to swordplay, we could have our battles and only lose like arms instead of small villages.
Submitted by electrictoothsyndrome (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:35:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:14:38 (#)
Ranking: 0
I think, now this is just me speaking, but I think there is a difference between nations with terroristic traits and those without.
I'm just sayin.
-------------------
'Terrorism' is a matter of perception.
I'm sure to the thousands of Iraqi civilians that have died during our assault and occupation in that country have a slightly different perspective.
Even if the reasons we gave for invading ARE true, we still killed all those people over the REMOTE THREAT of something happening to us. This preemptive approach is hypocracy, and anyone in the country of Iraq who chooses to fight against the occupier is completely justified in my view.
One thing about 'terrorists'... At least they are fighting for something they believe in...some ideal, which is more than I can say for us. Think about this: these people are not pressing buttons and shooting bunker busters halfway around the globe. They are strapping the bombs to THEMSELVES!
What would it take for any of us to do that? Protecting your way of life? Wife murdered? Mother? Father? CHILD?
Submitted by Drone_of_Industry (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:31:12 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Cool. This one dug a little deeper. I might answer some of those questions for myself.
Submitted by Barnymeinhoff (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:28:59 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I trust the Iranians with nukes more than I trust Americans. but then Americans make better films....oh ots all so confusing. (opens beer and watches Eastenders.)
Iranians my be more prone to aggressive fundamentalist inspired terrorist atrocities but then Americans have a proven track record in dropping nukes on civillians.
Submitted by MistressFist (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:24:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Caul,
What do you think should happen? I'm curious. Since the "sanctions" are pretty much balls on a priest and all. I don't like war, but if someone nukes the US, I'm sure the fallout will float up to Canada too.
What is the answer, really? We're all kinda fucked now.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:20:48 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:14:38 (#)
Ranking: 0
I think, now this is just me speaking, but I think there is a difference between nations with terroristic traits and those without.
I'm just sayin.
===
You do realize that in many parts of the world, even among allies, you are percieved as a graver threat than "terrorists" nations, do you?
Regardless of that, I didn't like this post very much. Especially the Karma, whatever that is, part.
Submitted by MistressFist (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:19:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-01-10 14:14:38 (#)
Ranking: 0
I think, now this is just me speaking, but I think there is a difference between nations with terroristic traits and those without.
I'm just sayin.
=======================
Yes.
Ideally, no one would have nukes, but then again, this is not the land of rape and cupcakes, and I'm not in charge. So I have to go with what badassmofo said.
Submitted by FilthyAssistant (