Stripper whores who lie about being raped should be raped. (3670 hits)
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Submitted by MyNameIsTim (View user info) at 2006-04-11 09:39:02 EDT
OK, not really. But I got your attention though, huh?
So as everyone with a television, radio, internet connection, or tin can-string rig knows, the Duke Lacrosse players who were accused of gang raping a stripper that they hired have been all but cleared. After a court-ordered DNA test showed that the stripper-whore had none of the players' DNA on her, combined with other evidence, all of television's legal experts say that the prosecution has no case whatsoever. For argument's sake, let's assume that this is the case, and the 45 kids are innocent.
Some of the people on television are even saying it was an elaborate hoax, in attempt to get back at the team for some other unknown. Is there anything that anyone could do that could justify this? Hell fucking no. But we really don't know.
All we know, is that this stripper-whore lied about being raped.
She lied about being gang raped, and the lives of 45 college kids and one man were ruined.
Here's what I hate about feminism and their futile quest for what is inaccurately deemed "gender equality": All it takes is one word to a cop from a lying whore, and any man in the world will instantly be plastered all over the news, and known forever as "that guy who was accused of rape." But even after it becomes known that the woman LIED, even if she had malicious intentions, her name is legally shielded from the press. So much for gender equality.
The problem is that there are not a lot of people who will stand up for Men's Rights when it comes to people being accused of rape. Because rape is one of the worst crimes a human being can commit against another single human being, nobody wants to have their name associated with a rapist.
Luckily, I'm an asshole, and I don't really care. I know I'm not a rapist, and I know I never will be. That's good enough for me.
Here's how shit should work:
I understand that a real rape victim is an emotional wreck, and rightfully so. I understand that a falsely accused rapist is an emotional wreck, and rightfully so.
******The judicial penalties for falsely accusing someone of rape should be just as stiff as those for the crime of rape itself.****** The penalties for falsely accusing 45 people of rape should be just as stiff as the crime of raping 45 people.
Under the current legal system, the ONLY thing that can happen to a stripper-whore who falsely accuses 45 men of gang rape and ruins their lives, is she can be sued for libel, defamation of character. Problem is that she's poor. Not worth anything. Both monetarily, and as a human being, so she's not going to get sued.
Because of the way the law is set up, the school, the public, the media, women's groups, black groups, and class-equality groups all consider the team guilty, before even a speck of evidence is made public.
So this broad gets off 100% scot-free. The media is allowed to broadcast the names and faces of kids and tell the world that they've been accused of rape, just one some stripper-whore's word. The stripper-whore is forever hidden behind a veil of legal and media anonymity. The kids will never be the same.
That's just not right.
Something needs to change.
User Reviews
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-06-09 10:31:13 EDT (#)
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godfuckingdammit that makes me so fucking angry.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-06-09 07:49:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Well no fucking suprises here.
what should have been an open and shut case of a false accusation has now ruined the lives of three players and their coach.
And the fucking whore who made up this whole bullshit story is going to walk away smelling like roses and have a free scholarship from Jesse Jackson's people. Nevermind the book she is going to write the Oprah, Tyra banks and BET circuit.
This bitch needs to go to jail. The police or DA who covered up or ignored this early on should lose their job. And Jesse Jackson and his "coalition" should be worried about making life easier for the people they have been slandering instead of some lying criminal cracked out whore.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-06-09 07:44:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
CNN) -- Police investigating the Duke University lacrosse team on rape allegations "omitted" notes from a second dancer at the party, who told authorities the alleged victim had been drinking, was acting "crazy" and that her colleague's accusation was a "crock," a defense attorney said Thursday.
In court documents filed Thursday, attorney Kirk Osborn said that Durham, North Carolina, police "intentionally, deliberately and/or recklessly omitted" information from a probable cause affidavit -- information Osborn says would have persuaded the judge not to file felony charges against three of the players.
The district attorney's office did not return a call seeking comment.
The accuser, a 27-year-old student at nearby North Carolina Central University, was hired as an exotic dancer at an off-campus team party, where she said three white men pulled her into a bathroom and assaulted her March 14.
Reade Seligmann, 20, of Essex Fells, New Jersey; Collin Finnerty, 19, of Garden City, New York; and team co-captain David Evans, 23, of Bethesda, Maryland, are facing charges of first-degree forcible rape, first-degree sexual offense and first-degree kidnapping.
But Osborn says that wouldn't be the case if the judge had seen a written statement by the lead Durham investigator summarizing an interview with Kim Pittman, aka Kim Roberts, the second dancer at the party.
Pittman referred to the accuser's report that she had been sexually assaulted as a "crock," the investigator wrote, and "she also stated that she was with her the whole time until she left," except for five minutes -- not the 30 minutes reported by the alleged victim, according to court documents.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-06-09 07:44:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Pittman said in a handwritten note dated March 22 that the accuser, to whom Pittman refers as "Precious," wanted to stay at the party and earn more money, even after one of the players made a verbal threat.
"Precious became 'crazy' and eventually passed out and had to be carried to Pittman's car by some of the Duke athletes," the statement says.
Another police note obtained by the defense says the alleged victim acknowledged having two beers before arriving at the party and that she and Pittman both had a rum and coke after their arrival.
The accuser also told police that she used a vibrating sex toy during a dance in a hotel room for a male and female, but she told police that she had not had sex in the week before the party, the note says.
However, a male friend of the accuser said that he had sex with her that week and that he drove her to three other sexual encounters, according to the friend's statement.
Osborn also claims in the court documents that the nurse who examined the alleged victim was in training and not yet certified.
Submitted by Axolotl (user info) at 2006-04-26 12:18:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
http://www.ubersite.com/m/87184 WOO Irish Mafia
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-20 11:41:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
that's my whole point...even if she did make the whole thing up because she's a vinctive cunt or she had alterior motives, the absolute worst thing that can happen to her, is she gets sued for defimatino of character.
thats the worst. she loses all the money in her bank account.
no jail time, unless she lies in court.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-20 09:39:52 EDT (#)
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Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-20 09:29:22 (#)
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those are some great links indo...you're right..it is continuing to look like she is lying on purpose...which brings me back to my orignal question:
ASSUMING she's lying and is out to get someone, should their names have been dragged through the mud before they were even indited?
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If it is made up I hope they sue. And the university better beg to have the coach come back.
Did you hear that Jesse Jackson has agreed to pay for her school even if she made the whole thing up?
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-20 09:29:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
those are some great links indo...you're right..it is continuing to look like she is lying on purpose...which brings me back to my orignal question:
ASSUMING she's lying and is out to get someone, should their names have been dragged through the mud before they were even indited?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-20 07:58:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
http://www.nbc17.com/news/8830631/detail.html
I don't think most chicks smile after being violently gang raped.
I know everything isn't out yet, but I am really starting to think she is full of shit.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-19 10:48:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Alright I am not making anopther post about this, but here are some interesting articles.
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=4091290 description of party photos showing injured and apparently intoxicated stripper.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&page=1 description of one of the accused alibi with corresponding ATM receipts, phone records and taxi driver testimony.
There was also some story about one of the accused being involved in an anti gay fight in DC. It turns out the guy he got into a fight with was a lacrosse player from another school, it wasn't a hate crime it was a meathead calling another meathead a fag. I love how it is portrayed like he went out gay bashing.
Submitted by jimmiss (user info) at 2006-04-14 11:13:08 EDT (#)
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Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-12 16:27:40 (#)
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Nothing, for the simple fact that it is already an infrequently-reported crime. Start penalizing people when there isn't enough evidence, and it will almost never be reported. Right or wrong, that is the way it has to be.
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Well, I gotta say that is a good point. I wouldn't want to be scared shitless of going to jail because someone raped me and I couldn't prove it.
There still should be punishement if the prove it was only for personal gain.
Then there is the guilty until proven innocent syndome associated with the subject. Any vindictive woman can ruin your live with a phone call. That is not fair.
I'd be a lot happier if the courts were more neutral when it came to the subject. Also a law such as you can't have your name in the paper until your proven guilty, given the fact your reputation is permanently ruined. That's pretty unlikely though.
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2006-04-14 01:24:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I love you too Tim.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-13 13:31:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
DAVY JONES FOR PRESIDENT!
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2006-04-13 12:14:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
One last thought before class.
Stripper whore vs. rich little shit
One implies strippers are bad people, the other implies rich kids are bad people. Both are stereotypical generalizations and hold no water. Both are wrong for the same reasons, so stop using them. They have no place in this argument.
Submitted by DavyJones (user info) at 2006-04-13 12:01:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Loki...your UNC bias is showing. Nothing you've been arguing about in this entire thread has anything to do with "let's assume they are innocent, should they have their names pulled through mud?" That's what's at issue here, isn't it? Really, you're just raising hell to raise hell it seems to me. They could be the most disrespectful rascist fucks who are actively attempting to enslave the 39% black population around them (by the way, your experience is clearly more telling than a fucking census, right? It MUST be more than 39%, because you've seen it... c'mon, you're supposed to be capable of rational thought...)
All that shit is tangental to NOTHING. Regardless of who they are, their character, or whether or not they actually raped her, their good names should not be ruined until they are proven guilty. If they are proven innocent, too late. Damage has been done that should not have. Argue against that, or shut the fuck up.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-13 06:37:46 EDT (#)
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Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-12 16:27:40 (#)
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Nothing, for the simple fact that it is already an infrequently-reported crime. Start penalizing people when there isn't enough evidence, and it will almost never be reported. Right or wrong, that is the way it has to be.
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i said it at least twice below in the thread...but i'll say it again.
i dont' want to penalize her for the case being dropped. I think it shoudl go back the other way, and the lax players should have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that she was lying for the sake of revenge or whatever it was.
Submitted by ConorJS (user info) at 2006-04-12 20:18:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Well, if you're right, then yeah, but... CONDOMS???
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-12 16:27:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Nothing, for the simple fact that it is already an infrequently-reported crime. Start penalizing people when there isn't enough evidence, and it will almost never be reported. Right or wrong, that is the way it has to be.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-12 16:25:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
assuming that they're not guilty...i don't think it's enough that they're found not guilty...i think SHE has to be found GUILTY of fabricating this whole mess...guilty beyond reasonable doubt in a separate trial.
but IF she were to be found guilty of making this up for her own personal gain or for revenge, then she she go to prison for at least (([minimum 1st degree rape years] + [minimum 1st degree sodomy years])x 3) years
Submitted by jimmiss (user info) at 2006-04-12 15:42:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Aside from all the semantics and splitting of hairs, assuming they are not guilty, what do you think should happen to her?
Submitted by jimmiss (user info) at 2006-04-12 15:40:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Wardy
even though i agree with you that those who falsely accuse for whatever reason (though it has to be intentionally false) should be drawn and quartered just like the rapists themselves, i fear that by writing this article in itself you have become a hypocrit. after all, the case has not yet been put before a judge and jury, so how can you formulate your opinion based on what the media has and has not reported? you have committed the same attrocities that you say your detractors are guilty of in the first place.
shame on you, sir. shame.
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"For argument's sake, let's assume that this is the case, and the 45 kids are innocent". is what the orginal submitter said.
Submitted by jimmiss (user info) at 2006-04-12 15:38:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
45 counts of fraud would do it.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-04-12 12:57:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
rape is a myth
Submitted by Adamdidit2u (user info) at 2006-04-12 12:35:57 EDT (#)
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Submitted by wardy (user info) at 2006-04-12 11:48:22 (#)
Ranking: -2
even though i agree with you that those who falsely accuse for whatever reason (though it has to be intentionally false) should be drawn and quartered just like the rapists themselves, i fear that by writing this article in itself you have become a hypocrit. after all, the case has not yet been put before a judge and jury, so how can you formulate your opinion based on what the media has and has not reported? you have committed the same attrocities that you say your detractors are guilty of in the first place.
shame on you, sir. shame.
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I'm glad to see someone believes in "innocent until prven guilty"
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-12 12:10:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
i get your point wardy...consider it well taken.
i don't agree with that I am committing the same atrosity that i am accusing the stripper in question of...
she's accusing someone of something that carries serious jail time, a lifetime of shame and the attached stigma of being labeled a rapist.
i'm accusing someone of something that makes her look bad.
i get the paradox that if what i proposed were put into effect, then it would be much closer to the same thing.
Submitted by wardy (user info) at 2006-04-12 11:48:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
even though i agree with you that those who falsely accuse for whatever reason (though it has to be intentionally false) should be drawn and quartered just like the rapists themselves, i fear that by writing this article in itself you have become a hypocrit. after all, the case has not yet been put before a judge and jury, so how can you formulate your opinion based on what the media has and has not reported? you have committed the same attrocities that you say your detractors are guilty of in the first place.
shame on you, sir. shame.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-12 11:29:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
what are you talking about hadley?
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-12 11:28:14 EDT (#)
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I don't think you did it on purpose, but the two phrases have a distinctly different meaning, as indo said. so yes, i'm splitting hairs to poke holes in your argument.
they've said on the news that court documents prove that the party was only attended by lacross players. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2404866)
but no, it's not hard to admit i was hasty. i was hasty in calling her a liar. i don't think i was hasty in calling her a whore, but i probably shouldn't have for niceness sake...
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-12 09:47:07 EDT (#)
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Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-12 09:39:08 (#)
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You can't possibly be splitting hairs on my paraphrasing something I read in the paper?
jebus christ on a popsicle stick, is it so hard to admit that you may have been hasty here?
I brought up the issue of it possibly not being someone on the team here: http://www.ubersite.com/m/86497#1927149
Come on, you've been to these big parties. I've been to parties at my own place where I didn't know half the people there. I seriously doubt that there was no one there except members of the team.
The paper also said that she has identified the three guys she is accusing, old school police line up style I assume.
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I don't think you did it on purpose, but it does have a different meaning.
And I think TIm mentioned a big IF at the beginning. I know I have said I don't KNOW what happened, just tossing ideas out there.
At this point, with what has been in the papers, I don't think she got raped by them. But I would not be willing to bet large sums of money on it.
Submitted by HadToBeDone (user info) at 2006-04-12 09:39:44 EDT (#)
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If it had been a kid instead of a stripper, you all would be saying he should be dead already.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-12 09:39:08 EDT (#)
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You can't possibly be splitting hairs on my paraphrasing something I read in the paper?
jebus christ on a popsicle stick, is it so hard to admit that you may have been hasty here?
I brought up the issue of it possibly not being someone on the team here: http://www.ubersite.com/m/86497#1927149
Come on, you've been to these big parties. I've been to parties at my own place where I didn't know half the people there. I seriously doubt that there was no one there except members of the team.
The paper also said that she has identified the three guys she is accusing, old school police line up style I assume.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-12 09:31:30 EDT (#)
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You know what is weird, and maybe I am reading too much into this, they are saying that there is no DNA matches with the players, but not that she had no other DNA on her.
Is it possible she was raped but not there? I think it would be weird for the team to cover up for anyone, but for three dudes who aren't on the team?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-12 09:18:22 EDT (#)
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Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-12 09:12:41 (#)
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no actually I don't enlighten me
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There is a difference between none being left behind and there being none to analyze.
If someone is waits a few days, or showers there might be no DNA left to analyze, that doesn't mean there is no evidence after the crime.
I think she pretty much was tossed out of the party and walked to the hospital, probably didn't give her much time to clean up.
I don't know maybe they watch CSI too and cleaned her up, but that seems a little far fetched.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-12 09:12:41 EDT (#)
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no actually I don't enlighten me
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-12 09:08:10 EDT (#)
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the paper said this:
"Nifong added that in 75 percent to 80 percent of sexual assaults, there is no DNA evidence to analyze."
Loki quoted it as this:
"In the paper this morning, they said that 75-80% of all rapes do not leave behind DNA. "
Anyone else see the discrepency here?
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-12 08:36:58 EDT (#)
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It was in the Charlotte Observer, but I also found it here:
http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=117525
**Nifong said prosecutors were awaiting a second set of DNA results, but did not say how those differed from the tests reported Monday. A spokeswoman for the state attorney general's office said the state crime lab gave all the results of DNA tests it has performed to Nifong on Monday.
Nifong added that in 75 percent to 80 percent of sexual assaults, there is no DNA evidence to analyze.
The district attorney said a rape case can built on testimony from the alleged victim and other witnesses. Nifong also said the hospital exam of the woman has led him to believe a crime occurred at the March 13 party.**
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-12 08:35:46 EDT (#)
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Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-12 07:37:44 (#)
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Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-12 07:06:28 (#)
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Submitted by CookieLass (user info) at 2006-04-12 04:38:06 (#)
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"Because an estimated 70% of rape cases go uncharged, things like this remain unnoticed, or are written off as "boys will be boys" "
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i find it really hard to believe that ANY rape case was ever dismissed on the grounds that "boys will be boys." at what stage is it getting off like this? the cops say it to someone who walks into the police statement? what? i can't imagine anyone in our society would dismiss a rape charge on something like that.
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Where does this 70% come from? If it is unreported, how do you get that info?
I remember lojope quoting numbers like that, but the way she described that they arrived at them made no sense.
Hey!!! She was raped, you know.
Submitted by nightshade (user info) at 2006-04-12 08:31:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Amen
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-12 08:27:58 EDT (#)
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Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-12 08:07:19 (#)
Ranking: -2
In the paper this morning, they said that 75-80% of all rapes do not leave behind DNA.
Did you know that Mr. Jump to Conclusions?
I actually did not.
I've watched too much CSI and was already surprised at how long it takes to get the results back. The paper also said that they were sending the samples to another lab because the one where they sent it could only do one type of analysis and this other lab is more conclusive.
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I have been watching too much CSI, as well because I thought almost all rapes left behind DNA. Especially if she went right from where it happened to the hospital.
Loki, I didn't mean to give the impression I thought they were innocent, I htink it is entirely possible, but I don't know enough about it.
Which paper was that in? Just curious because my googling skill are showing me different numbers, are you sure it isn't 75-80 of rape cases don't use DNA evidence?
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-12 08:07:19 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
In the paper this morning, they said that 75-80% of all rapes do not leave behind DNA.
Did you know that Mr. Jump to Conclusions?
I actually did not.
I've watched too much CSI and was already surprised at how long it takes to get the results back. The paper also said that they were sending the samples to another lab because the one where they sent it could only do one type of analysis and this other lab is more conclusive.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-12 07:37:44 EDT (#)
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Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-12 07:06:28 (#)
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Submitted by CookieLass (user info) at 2006-04-12 04:38:06 (#)
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"Because an estimated 70% of rape cases go uncharged, things like this remain unnoticed, or are written off as "boys will be boys" "
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i find it really hard to believe that ANY rape case was ever dismissed on the grounds that "boys will be boys." at what stage is it getting off like this? the cops say it to someone who walks into the police statement? what? i can't imagine anyone in our society would dismiss a rape charge on something like that.
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Where does this 70% come from? If it is unreported, how do you get that info?
I remember lojope quoting numbers like that, but the way she described that they arrived at them made no sense.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-12 07:06:28 EDT (#)
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Submitted by CookieLass (user info) at 2006-04-12 04:38:06 (#)
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"Because an estimated 70% of rape cases go uncharged, things like this remain unnoticed, or are written off as "boys will be boys" "
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i find it really hard to believe that ANY rape case was ever dismissed on the grounds that "boys will be boys." at what stage is it getting off like this? the cops say it to someone who walks into the police statement? what? i can't imagine anyone in our society would dismiss a rape charge on something like that.
Submitted by rockdocc (user info) at 2006-04-12 04:55:17 EDT (#)
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Saying all that. I don't particularly agree with feminism. I think it's made women forget to be sweet and men forget to be men.
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equality is great.
but still, definately agree with you.
"you don't want to stay home and have babies? Wonderful, come stand beside me and make something of yourself in this world" equality is where it's at.
Submitted by rockdocc (user info) at 2006-04-12 04:51:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
the ucmj has provisions set against false accusations of sexual misconduct and other such things. If you are found to be guilty of lying about such things, you are stripped of pay, given extra duties, sometimes sent to the brig, and even freakin dishonorably discharged. Which means one thing, you are fucked for life. McDonald's won't freakin hire someone with a freakin Dishonorable Discharge.
Maybe they should do something like that in the civilian world.
I know all this because a friend of mine was accused of rape. We all couldn't believe, this guy is the nicest guy in the world, former marine turned corpsman, a real good friend to have in a tough situation and just all around good guy.
then this bitch accuses him of rape.
three months later, he's been kicked out the ER (his favorite job) she's been treated like a queen, and his name is almost permanently blackened to the navy.
She confesses to a friend that she made this up to cover up her cheating on her boyfriend with some other guy, and to hide underage drinking, among other things.
She was snitched on, and in about a month was sent to the brig to serve a four month sentence (with hard labor) before being dishonorably discharged.
and the dude? His name was cleared, he went back to the ER and is now attending medical photography school.
He's got a great future in the navy, and this skanky ho is fucked.
so this kind of thing works for us, maybe the civilian world should adopt something like that.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-04-12 04:43:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
actually, I'd go with the suggestion in the title.
Submitted by CookieLass (user info) at 2006-04-12 04:38:06 EDT (#)
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Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:24:59 (#)
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Submitted by CookieLass (user info) at 2006-04-11 11:56:34 (#)
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The average rape sentence in this country is between 3 and 5 years. The average time served for rape in this country is between 9 and 18 months. Less than 60% of rape cases actually make it to trial, and of those, less than 50% are actually found guilty and sentenced to any time. How's that for pathetic? You get more time in jail for having an ounce of weed on you than you do for raping someone. Or manslaughter, for that matter.
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i had no idea that the average sentence was that low. i'll have to research that. surely it should be waaaay longer.
so if 60% of cases make it to trial, and 50% of those are convicted...does that mean that only 30% of cases are true? or that 70% of accussees are innocent? or that 70% of rapists get off scot-free?
we don't know. that's my point. i'm sure some of them were falsely accused, and some are rapists who got off. both are horrible. but that statistic proves absolutely nothing.
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Allow me to explain since the class is having trouble with this. 40% of the cases don't make it to trial because the victim is either intimidated out of pressing charges, or the prosecutor cuts a deal. Fake rape cases don't tend to make it out of police interrogations. To quote my brother-in-law's badass cop older brother, "You can smell a whore a mile away, and her story will always stink just as bad." Unfortunately, the media doesn't tend to care about these "facts" and "truths" that out judicial system is supposed to be based on. They get a whiff of a story, and facts don't matter so long as they insert the word "alleged" every 10 seconds or so, their asses are covered.
Just because the sentance *should* be longer, doesn't mean it is. At the risk of sounding femi-nazi, rape is a crime perpetrated upon women in a male-ruled society. We just plain don't matter in the scheme of things, and what is done to us is generally unimportant to the people in positions of power. Because an estimated 70% of rape cases go uncharged, things like this remain unnoticed, or are written off as "boys will be boys". I could go into rape statistics (ACTUAL rape, not the "oh, I was too drunk to know I was letting you poke me in the butt! Rape! Rape!" cases) but that's beyond the point, as you obviously weren't saying that every woman who sways she was raped is a liar. I would like to say that in cases such as this one, the woman's name, face, and home address should be broadcast for 30 seconds in the middle of prime time every night for a month, but that's just stupid.
Submitted by Nobb (user info) at 2006-04-12 04:38:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Your idea is retarded and I hope someone brought this up. If the system worked in a way where if you accuse someone of a crime, and they are found not guilty, you serve the time, then many many crimes will go unreported. It's just a really really stupid idea that sounds good if you put no thought into it at all.
There should be penalties for false accusations I agree, but what you're proposing is just dumb.
Submitted by shitfuck (user info) at 2006-04-11 20:57:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
I can't be fucked to read any of this. Have a sympathy +1 for the daring title.
Submitted by creep_firebombing (user info) at 2006-04-11 20:16:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Werd.
Hitwhore.
Submitted by Whiplash (user info) at 2006-04-11 19:07:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I read the title and decided this gets a +2 no matter what the content.
Good for you m'boy.
Submitted by munkeypants (user info) at 2006-04-11 18:56:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I see what you are saying... hypothetically if a woman does lie she should not get
off scott free. No she should not. Just just the accusation can damage the life of the
accused.
I don't know if they have come to that point yet in this particular case though.
Just disproving one piece of evidence does not an aquittal make.
Submitted by Davros (user info) at 2006-04-11 18:42:12 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
You are right, absoloutely.
Maybe presenting it in an "Uber-friendly" method on this occasion has cost you slightly, but the points are valid.
-Dave
Submitted by ghola (user info) at 2006-04-11 17:35:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:39:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
get it?
regarding the title of the post: "OK, not really"
and it's not "who can't prove it" but "falsely"
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:38:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Loki:
please re-read the first three words of this post, and the sentence that has ****** before and after it.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:28:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
The whole school has a rather odd relationship with the state. There was a rather infamous incident here in the Holy City of Charlotte when Duke got rather viciously booed last year when they played an opening round of the men's NCAA basketball tournament here. I thought it was pretty funny, but there was a lot of bad noise in the paper about it. This is a UNC town and really a UNC state and we don't care.
why
cause FUCK DUKE that's why
So yea I think we tend to believe the worst of them. Unfortunately, they never seem to fail to disappoint.
Essentially I think what I'm getting at here is that there are a lot more factors at play here than a simple college party that got out of hand, involved a lot of underage drinking and strippers where there may or may not have been a rape.
I think you jumped the shark calling her a lying whore. I also think you are way off the charts when you say that anyone who accuses someone of rape and then later can't prove it should be raped. In fact, that is a bit on the Taliban side don't you think.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:26:02 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:03:47 (#)
Ranking: 0
I have encountered major MAJOR attitude from the black people in that town. I had someone actually try to start a fight with me in a grocery store. Want to know what my offense was? Sure you do. I was next in line, when the person in front of me paid and left, I shoved the stuff I had on the counter forward and something or other that I was buying turned over. That's it, I think it was shampoo or something but the bottle fell over. It was seen as me being disrespectful towards the cashier. Not by the cashier you understand, by the person behind me in line who decided to follow me out into the parking lot raising hell. She got a group of guys who were hanging out in front of the place riled up. I never even responded to her and just got in my car and started driving away. She got in her car and tried to follow me but it would seem that there is some kind of repellent at the Chapel Hill city limits and she turned back.
----------------------
So you are saying she deserved to be raped because she was black, not because she was a whore...?
Submitted by ampersand (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:18:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:01:07 (#)
Ranking: 0
indo...that's ONE YEAR at Duke. And yes, I am implying that people whose parents make enough to send them to school for 5 years at total cost of $200K are spoiled shits because I've SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES FOR OVER 20 YEARS (including time since graduation).
Do you know why? Those kids don't grow up knowing the value of a dollar. They've never had to face going without the best of everything. 20 years of observation. You know when I gave up hope on them all?
"I can't believe Daddy only bought me a Lexus. Whitney got a Range rover when she turned 16."
I heard variations on that for 4 years of high school. That sense of entitlement can't EVER lead to anything good.
---
I don't know who you are or anything about you but you can suck my dick. By the time I'm done undergrad I and my parents will be out $180k (thats across 4 years, not 5). And I do mean I and my parents because I'm spending as much of my own money on it as I can. Daddy didn't buy me a Lexus, or anything else when I was 16. Or 17. Or 18. I paid for my own used Corolla. I've been working since 10th grade and I'll be working through my undergrad studies and my grad studies too. So fuck off.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:18:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
yeah, women are held to a different standard than men when it comes to sex. it's unfortunate, but true.
i would consider a man who sold himself for sex to willing women a whore also. as for the women who pay for them, i would consider them to be whatever the equivalent is of men who go to strip clubs and throw mardi gras beads.
i don't know if there's a word for male whore. you can coin the term if you'd like.
but you're right. racism is still alive. it's horrible. it goes both ways. we need to work to fix it, not just in the community of durham, NC, not just in the US, but everyone, as a human race.
i mean that.
<sings michael jackson's heal the world>
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:14:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:01:07 (#)
Ranking: 0
indo...that's ONE YEAR at Duke. And yes, I am implying that people whose parents make enough to send them to school for 5 years at total cost of $200K are spoiled shits because I've SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES FOR OVER 20 YEARS (including time since graduation).
Do you know why? Those kids don't grow up knowing the value of a dollar. They've never had to face going without the best of everything. 20 years of observation. You know when I gave up hope on them all?
"I can't believe Daddy only bought me a Lexus. Whitney got a Range rover when she turned 16."
I heard variations on that for 4 years of high school. That sense of entitlement can't EVER lead to anything good.
----------------------
You do realize that you are still in th etop 1% of the world when it comes to wealth. what is the difference between you saying they are no good and don't know the value of a dollar, and some guy from the streets of india saying that about all Americans? Or about a poor American saying it about all middle class people.
You were on a lower rung in a very small group of people. In the grand scheme of things you are at the top. It is stupid to assume you are better than anyone because they are richer. It is stupid to assign values, or worth to anyone simply because of their wealth. Assuming anyone with money is a spoiled brat is just as stupid as saying all poor people are lazy and dumb.
I lived in a very well off part of CT for a while in high school. I saw rich kids, more rich kids than any other school I went to, but there wer eno more spoiled shits than anywhere else. In any group you will always have people who are better off, it doesn't mekt them better or worse though.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:03:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
You seem to see double standards everywhere you go so tell me what is the male equivalent of a "whore"?
come on think?
Why is it that we have a word like whore, one that you are comfortable throwing around like mardi gras beads and there is no male equivalent?
why?
Could it be because women are held to an entirely different standard where it comes to sex?
as in SHE is a whore because she is a stripper and THEY are just some college kids out for some good clean fun.
Sorry but I don't buy it. I do think they are, if nothing else, disrespectful rich little shits. Clearly they do not consider themselves citizens of the town or state for that matter. What could they do better, oh I don't know and I don't care. I didn't go to school there, thankfully it's private so my money isn't going to it nor am I a big fan of Durham.
I have encountered major MAJOR attitude from the black people in that town. I had someone actually try to start a fight with me in a grocery store. Want to know what my offense was? Sure you do. I was next in line, when the person in front of me paid and left, I shoved the stuff I had on the counter forward and something or other that I was buying turned over. That's it, I think it was shampoo or something but the bottle fell over. It was seen as me being disrespectful towards the cashier. Not by the cashier you understand, by the person behind me in line who decided to follow me out into the parking lot raising hell. She got a group of guys who were hanging out in front of the place riled up. I never even responded to her and just got in my car and started driving away. She got in her car and tried to follow me but it would seem that there is some kind of repellent at the Chapel Hill city limits and she turned back.
So yea, clearly it is a two way street. In fact I am shocked at the lack of rioting in the streets.
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:01:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
indo...that's ONE YEAR at Duke. And yes, I am implying that people whose parents make enough to send them to school for 5 years at total cost of $200K are spoiled shits because I've SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES FOR OVER 20 YEARS (including time since graduation).
Do you know why? Those kids don't grow up knowing the value of a dollar. They've never had to face going without the best of everything. 20 years of observation. You know when I gave up hope on them all?
"I can't believe Daddy only bought me a Lexus. Whitney got a Range rover when she turned 16."
I heard variations on that for 4 years of high school. That sense of entitlement can't EVER lead to anything good.
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2006-04-11 16:00:51 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
The debate on this issue is confusing. As far as I can tell everyone seems to be in agreement that the agreement of anonymity should be extended to the accused, though we might as well open this up to all cases, not just rape. Not unless it's actually being seriously considered that being crucified by the press for being accused of a crime is somehow neccesary. Beyond that there's not much to say.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:54:20 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
so you're saying that EVERYONE who went to a school that cost north of $26K is a "rich shit?"
of course not.
it's kind of stupid to argue about that. i went to a good college, i'm not a rich shit. i bet 75% of the people on this website over the age of 22 went to college. i bet most of them are not "rich shits"
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:54:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:45:07 (#)
Ranking: 0
I used 12 years of experience around people who went to schools that cost around $40K a year to base my statement. That is real-world experience.
There were 46 players on the lacrosse team. Now read:
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/424160.html
"Duke awards the equivalent of 12.6 scholarships, the NCAA maximum for lacrosse. At $42,000 per scholarship, that's $529,200. The scholarships are divided among 27 players."
None of them are getting full-ride scholarships, meaning they are somehow managing to pay an average of ~$24,500 a year. Hardly chump change, and definitely within spoiled shit range - based on real-world experience.
--------------------------------
You still don't get it do you? Who cares if their parents are paying 25k a year for school. Nevermind the fact you don't know how much state or federal aid they are getting, or how may loans they are taking out. You are assuming since they have money they are spoiled shits. That is no different than assuming since she is a single mother and a stripper she is a lying whore.
YOu can't honestly sit there and tell me that most people who make over x amount of money are really all spoiled shits. That is beyond idiotic. To third world countries yo are a spoiled little shit. Is it fair for them to assume you would given the chance rape a woman from their community because you have been so spoiled?
For the record my parents didn't pay a dime for my school, and I graduated around 30k in debt.
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:45:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:29:49 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:16:41 (#)
Ranking: 0
Total Awards: $27,482
That doesn't even cover tuition. You still have $19K a year to go. Every year.
So now look at that again. $44k a year for college. That sounds like rich shits to me. Mostly because I went to high school in a district comprised mostly of rich shits (Median house value: $738,800 [year 2000] - only concrete stat I could find for the wealth of the area...the rich often lie about how much they make, either to limit attention, or they lie the other way to appear largerthan life), and there were maybe a handful who didn't look down their noses at the poorer segment of society. Funny thing is, most haven't changed in 10 years.
------------------------
Ok look what we have a black single mother working as a stripper. Sounds like a whore to me.
That makes as much sense as calling these students shits, doesn't it? Especially since some of these guys might only be going to duke because of athletic scholarships. Are they not rich shits then, just asshole jocks?
**
I used 12 years of experience around people who went to schools that cost around $40K a year to base my statement. That is real-world experience.
There were 46 players on the lacrosse team. Now read:
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/424160.html
"Duke awards the equivalent of 12.6 scholarships, the NCAA maximum for lacrosse. At $42,000 per scholarship, that's $529,200. The scholarships are divided among 27 players."
None of them are getting full-ride scholarships, meaning they are somehow managing to pay an average of ~$24,500 a year. Hardly chump change, and definitely within spoiled shit range - based on real-world experience.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:39:29 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I fail to see why stripping makes someone a whore and yet guys who hire them are just having good clean fun.
good point. but shouldn't it be "people who hire them..." per your early "and that's what feminism is" statement?
:-p
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:35:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't think anyone doubts the fact that the community is, for lack of a better phrase, split in half.
The haves and the have-nots.
I don't think this is the only community in the country that experiences this. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Do you think this is a bad thing, and think segragating the haves and the have-nots is the right way to go about doing it?
what solution would you propose? making Duke University affordable for the average resident of Durham? forcing the students at duke to live in the slums of durham?
i don't know. I don't think there's an easy answer. I think it's good that a lot of people smarter than me are going to meet and try to figure out what the answer is.
and for the record, I don't frequent strip clubs. I've been maybe 7 times in my life. Yes, i like looking at hot naked women, but i hate strip clubs because of the strippers. they're constantly asking for money, and whoring themselves out for lap dances. excuse my french, but buying a lap dance is buying a form of sex. and selling sex for money makes you a whore. by definition.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:29:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Loki-
Those stats are from the 2004 census bureau. I have never been there, so there are probably areas that are more whits or black. I have no idea how big Durhamis or how much Duke plays a roll in its economy. But I don't think town gown relationships are good anywhere there is expensive schools.
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:16:41 (#)
Ranking: 0
Total Awards: $27,482
That doesn't even cover tuition. You still have $19K a year to go. Every year.
So now look at that again. $44k a year for college. That sounds like rich shits to me. Mostly because I went to high school in a district comprised mostly of rich shits (Median house value: $738,800 [year 2000] - only concrete stat I could find for the wealth of the area...the rich often lie about how much they make, either to limit attention, or they lie the other way to appear largerthan life), and there were maybe a handful who didn't look down their noses at the poorer segment of society. Funny thing is, most haven't changed in 10 years.
------------------------
Ok look what we have a black single mother working as a stripper. Sounds like a whore to me.
That makes as much sense as calling these students shits, doesn't it? Especially since some of these guys might only be going to duke because of athletic scholarships. Are they not rich shits then, just asshole jocks?
I don't think it is right to call her a whore, and when I first heard about my first instinct was they should go to jail for a long time. But now that more stuff is coming out, I am seeing another side, and it is bothering me that people are using things like them being college students, athletes and having some common minor offenses as some type of ammunition to question their character.
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:16:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Rich shits at Duke? Let's examine the evidence:
2005-2006
Cost of Attendance
Tuition and Fees: $32,600
Room: $4,800
Board: $4,150
Personal expenses / books: $2,455
Total Cost of Attendance: $44,005
* NOTE: All figures are estimated averages.
2004-05 Award Statistics
Average Aid Award
Grant Funds: $21,592
Deferred Loans: $4,358
Work-Study Job: $1,532
-----
Total Awards: $27,482
That doesn't even cover tuition. You still have $19K a year to go. Every year.
So now look at that again. $44k a year for college. That sounds like rich shits to me. Mostly because I went to high school in a district comprised mostly of rich shits (Median house value: $738,800 [year 2000] - only concrete stat I could find for the wealth of the area...the rich often lie about how much they make, either to limit attention, or they lie the other way to appear largerthan life), and there were maybe a handful who didn't look down their noses at the poorer segment of society. Funny thing is, most haven't changed in 10 years.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 15:09:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I seriously doubt the neighborhood they were in was racially mixed and clearly you have never been to Durham. It is more than 39% black. My personal observation puts it at more like 60-70%, but that may be a bit of an exaggeration. It is definitely more than 50% black. Basically anyone white in Durham is connected to Duke.
Rich little shits was to illustrate the perception of the community of the students.
Step off the rape issue and the stripper issue and just look at this objectively. These kids these white kids are attending a school that costs more in tuition than the majority of the inhabitants of the city make in a year. How do you think this would play out? Hell if this were an all black private school in an all black town there would be conflicts just from the economic disparity.
I do condemn Tim for jumping to the lying whore conclusion. I find his attitude hypocritical since he has admitted on here before that he frequents strip clubs. I fail to see why stripping makes someone a whore and yet guys who hire them are just having good clean fun.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:57:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:29:42 (#)
Ranking: 0
As far as the hate crime goes....
If a rape did occur, don't you think the fact that they were calling her a nigger and saying her grandfather picked the cotton for their shirts makes it a bit of a racial aspect? One that at least deserves investigation?
-----------------------------
Who said they said that(I don't know)?
Well not really, but I don't believe in hate crime laws. Under the law it makes sense, but I have never heard of hate crime being used against a black person, and especially never inthe case of rape, even when racial slurs were used.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:43:53 (#)
Ranking: 0
I never said that I thought these guys were guilty. I'm just describing different scenarios to counter the blind "she's a whore and a bitch and had it coming" slant to this.
By guilty I mean of rape, they are guilty of a whole host of other offenses and in general are a disgrace to the university. I'd say state, but no one from here actually goes to school there.
This thing has a lot more going on than you read in the papers. What they are not describing is the class warfare that is Durham. I think everybody who lives in that town except the Duke people is poor and black. Long before this there have been minor clashes between the university and the city. It's pretty easy to see why. On one side are the rich little shits who go to a school that costs more per year than the per capita income of the majority of the city in which it is located. I'm sure there is a better than thou attitude emanating from the school. Combine that with the racist attitudes that would lead someone to yell, "thank your grandfather for my cotton shirt" mixed in with a healthy dose of pure resentment from the town and you have real volatility.
It could be worse, there was a frat in Georgia that lost their charter for paying black people to pick cotton in front of the house for some weeklong old south party or some such bullshit.
Why this thing in Durham hasn't come to a head long before now I just don't know except that like I said, very few Duke students actually come from the state so maybe they don't really mix in with the townies all that much. I seem to remember everyone more or less keeping to themselves.
At least until they moved the students off campus, specifically they moved the students who didn't want to be bothered by the honor code off campus.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
-------------------------------
What is the host of other offenses? Public drunkenness and noise violations is good clean college fun. I find it really hard to believe they were making the ststements thay are accused of in a racially mixed neighborhood without popilce reports from complaints or fights that would surely ensue.
Durham may be poor but it is 50% white and 39% black. You don't see a problem calling them all rich little shits, but condemning Tim for calling her a lying whore. That is the same thing.
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:46:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
The alleged cover-up is because not a single one of the players would speak to police, period. When 45 potential witnesses, who supposedly have done nothing wrong, won't even say what happened, it makes people ask more questions.
Often, the appearance of impropriety does more harm than the actual deed.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:44:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:28:03 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:13:31 (#)
Ranking: 2
She went with another stripper, they both left because they didn't like the atmosphere. Strippers don't get fired for that.
Why would only one come back because she was afraid to get fired? No she probably wasn't going to get paid if she left, but why should she?
**
It's like when you're an independent contractor and are hired for a job. You turn down others so you can do it, based on how it was represented to you. Then you get there and you find out it's nothing like you thought it was going to be. In fact, it far exceeds what you expected, both in requirements and risk to your well-being. Should you walk away and get NOTHING?
---------------------------
Actually whenever anyone I know has hired strippers there is a deposit they pay for the strippers showing up. I don't think she would have left empty handed, but even if she did, sorry but who cares. People can get stiffed in any service job.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:43:53 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
In the case of Kobe, money as always trumps race. Plus there was only one of Kobe so it isn't really a gang rape. In fact, it was a whole different set of dice. Kobe took advantage of a groupie and then went back door without permission. I still don't know if its rape, but it's rude as hell.
I never said that I thought these guys were guilty. I'm just describing different scenarios to counter the blind "she's a whore and a bitch and had it coming" slant to this.
By guilty I mean of rape, they are guilty of a whole host of other offenses and in general are a disgrace to the university. I'd say state, but no one from here actually goes to school there.
This thing has a lot more going on than you read in the papers. What they are not describing is the class warfare that is Durham. I think everybody who lives in that town except the Duke people is poor and black. Long before this there have been minor clashes between the university and the city. It's pretty easy to see why. On one side are the rich little shits who go to a school that costs more per year than the per capita income of the majority of the city in which it is located. I'm sure there is a better than thou attitude emanating from the school. Combine that with the racist attitudes that would lead someone to yell, "thank your grandfather for my cotton shirt" mixed in with a healthy dose of pure resentment from the town and you have real volatility.
It could be worse, there was a frat in Georgia that lost their charter for paying black people to pick cotton in front of the house for some weeklong old south party or some such bullshit.
Why this thing in Durham hasn't come to a head long before now I just don't know except that like I said, very few Duke students actually come from the state so maybe they don't really mix in with the townies all that much. I seem to remember everyone more or less keeping to themselves.
At least until they moved the students off campus, specifically they moved the students who didn't want to be bothered by the honor code off campus.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:43:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
OCG, Kobe missed a total of 2 games due to court and legal issues. And I'm pretty sure both of those were East Coast games, which started right about when his court session ended. (5MST is 7EST, obviously)
Most times, he took a private plane out of Aspen, and since a smallish jet is a bit faster than a 747, he made it in time for most games west of the Mississippi. I think there were 2 where he missed the first quarter.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:37:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
jonukah has a terrific point...one i really wish i thought of before i posted.
Frankly, after reading it, i give up. i agree that is a legitmate reason why you can't punish false accusers. It's sad, but true.
-------------
Loki, forgive me in advance for saying this, because I usually respect the shit out of you and just about everything you have to say, including the way you say it. I think you're probably a good person, even if i disagree with you.
I cannot stand how you are arguing. I'm taking one side, playing devils advocate, and sticking up for the people that nobody is sticking up for. You're taking the other...all good so far... I assumed (FOR ARGUMENT'S SAKE) that the stripper was lying. You assumed (for reasons unknown to me) that the stripper really was raped and it's a huge conspiracy to cover it up.
I'm a young, white, recent college graduate, and i was an athlete in college. I've been to parties where there were strippers. Nobody ever raped a stripper anywhere I was. but once again, ASSUMING that the stripper is lying, this could have happened to me and about 500 people i know. That makes it personal for me.
Was I wrong to use the phrases I did? Lying whore, stripper-whore, etc.? absolutely. I should have reserved judgement until the case was proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to make those judgements. I didn't.
But you are using my hypocracy and my personal character flaws in attempt to discredit every point i have. which doesn't work. you have never "assumed something to be true for the sake of argument?" It's a valid debate technique. you even use it yourself: "All along she said it was 3 guys so even if everything she said was god's own truth, the other 42 are only persons of interest."
You're ignoring logic and rational thought every time a point is brought up, and go back to talking about how one time i got my dick sucked or infering that i think the girl should have been raped.
But what you're doing doesn't work. It insults me, and it makes me think less of you and everything you stand for.
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:29:42 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
As far as the hate crime goes....
If a rape did occur, don't you think the fact that they were calling her a nigger and saying her grandfather picked the cotton for their shirts makes it a bit of a racial aspect? One that at least deserves investigation?
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:28:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:13:31 (#)
Ranking: 2
She went with another stripper, they both left because they didn't like the atmosphere. Strippers don't get fired for that.
Why would only one come back because she was afraid to get fired? No she probably wasn't going to get paid if she left, but why should she?
**
It's like when you're an independent contractor and are hired for a job. You turn down others so you can do it, based on how it was represented to you. Then you get there and you find out it's nothing like you thought it was going to be. In fact, it far exceeds what you expected, both in requirements and risk to your well-being. Should you walk away and get NOTHING?
It paints a one sided picture. A picture that use to infer they are all rich spoiled kids who buy their way out of trouble. A picture that isn't true. I have had all of those citations. Most of my friends have had a few. We never raped anyone.
**
You also didn't play lacrosse at Duke. I suspect that there's a HUGE difference there.
Really? What happened to Kobe when a white women alledged rape against him? Did he lose a season? Did his coach resign? I dont't even remember if he missed any games, I am sure these kids are missing classes between police and lawyer interviews. If a white woman was raped by black men would they be looking into hate crimes?
**
Yes, he missed a lot of games for court appearances and for intervies with the authorities. Same as these players.
Submitted by SunnyG (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:27:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by ubetidid (user info) at 2006-04-11 10:08:25 (#)
Ranking: -2
hell, what rape trials have you sat in on??
first of all, let's get something straight about what really happens in courtrooms. Unless you were a friggin virgin...good luck! they just don't convict otherwise. Juries just don't believe women for the most part. And a stripper??? OH LORD GET REAL. If they had DNA from all forty-some of those guys they still probably wouldn't convict!! That's just how it is.
and just because no DNA was found on those guys means nothing really.
I do think that the one player's e-mail is pretty telling about what he really thinks of women.
Who's really lying?? We'll never know. But you're right on one account. Everybody will lose. They're names and reputations will forever be tarnished. All of them.
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Wow...why dont you just die of cancer. No DNA means nothing? Are you a fucking retard? I feel dumber reading your review.
Eat a dick.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:26:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I just want to throw it out there that I don't know if these guys are innocent or assholes who deserve a long term in a jail with a large prisoner as a cell mate.
I don't know if she is a victim or a lying whore.
I know after I read stories like this I tend to form certain opinions. When I first heard of this case I thought these kids shoulc be crucified. The more I hear about it I think they did nothing wrong, or at least nothing worse than backing out on paying a stripper for blow jobs.
It is very hard for me to conjure up a scenario where a stripper would go back into a house packed with 45 dudes if she thought they were dangerous, or if she thought she wasn't going to make any money. It is hard for me to think of 45 guys who would cover up for someone getting raped.
I think it is just as fair for Tim to call her a lying whore as it is for Loki to assume thay are all willing to cover up a rape because they had public drunkeness citations.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:23:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
She accused 3 of the players of raping her, only she didn't know which ones, just that they were 3 white guys. That's why the 46th team member, who is black, did not have his DNA tested.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:13:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 13:02:38 (#)
Ranking: 0
**From my experience with strippers that makes no sense. If anything she was trying to get more money to go back in. You don't get strippers fired because they left a party they don't feel safe at.**
Maybe you would know more about that than I would. I've never been a stripper myself but I think it is perfectly reasonable to at least consider the scenario that she got freaked out, tried to leave, and was told that if she didn't go back in she would not get paid and/or get fired.
Why is that crazy? You don't know any more about her or her situation than I do. Even if that were not true, how do you know she wouldn't have believed it. Hell, how do you know it isn't true. If she had left without dancing why would they pay? According to the paper, she's a single mom working her way through college so obviously she needed the money.
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She went with another stripper, they both left because they didn't like the atmosphere. Strippers don't get fired for that.
Why would only one come back because she was afraid to get fired? No she probably wasn't going to get paid if she left, but why should she?
"The allegations of lewd drunken behavior does indeed go to character and paints a picture. I've been to a few parties, especially in college and I'm also pretty sure that rape in a setting like that is not entirely uncommon. Hell, I've heard of it happening. Whether it makes it to the press or cops depends on whether the girl really wants to get dragged through the mud. I believe that people like Tim refer to that sort of thing as "had it coming"."
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It paints a one sided picture. A picture that use to infer they are all rich spoiled kids who buy their way out of trouble. A picture that isn't true. I have had all of those citations. Most of my friends have had a few. We never raped anyone.
"and Wookie is right, rape is certainly unacceptable but then again is it rape if she's black and a stripper? I promise this would be an entirely different story if it had been a white woman claiming that she had been raped by some guys at a black frat. Oh yes it would."
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Really? What happened to Kobe when a white women alledged rape against him? Did he lose a season? Did his coach resign? I dont't even remember if he missed any games, I am sure these kids are missing classes between police and lawyer interviews. If a white woman was raped by black men would they be looking into hate crimes?
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:04:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 13:18:43 (#)
Ranking: 0
Yeah, imgaine it had been some pretty blonde paying her way through school and she was (allegedly) raped by every black man on the football team. Tim would have less of a problem with that, because he headbutts and beats up the big bad darkies. He also fantasizes about beating up the tarbabies that stole his headlights.
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i don't know if there's anything that i can say to prove to you assholes that i'm not racist. probalby not. you probably think from what i've writen and said that i am.
i'm not.
i'd appreciate it if you didn't joke about it, because it makes me look like a piece of shit. i can handle making myself look bad on my own.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 14:00:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Whether it makes it to the press or cops depends on whether the girl really wants to get dragged through the mud. I believe that people like Tim refer to that sort of thing as "had it coming".
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the whole point was that the accusers name NEVER gets dragged through the mud. it's protected by the law.
and i really really really take offense to you implying that i would EVER say or think that the girl had it coming.
no matter what she did, didn't do, or what kind of person she was, of course she didn't deserve to get raped.
IF and only if, it's proven she lied about it, yeah, i'd say she should get her name dragged through all kinds of mud. but that likely won't happen.
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2006-04-11 13:50:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: -1
Hey, let's all rush to judgement!
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2006-04-11 13:46:42 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Fuck Nerds, Jocks get what they want because they earned it
Submitted by TheSpook (user info) at 2006-04-11 13:36:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-04-11 13:16:09 (#)
Ranking: 2
Innocent until proven still the law, right?
No such thing. The US is governed by the Napoleonic code.
Submitted by OneCheapGeek (user info) at 2006-04-11 13:18:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Yeah, imgaine it had been some pretty blonde paying her way through school and she was (allegedly) raped by every black man on the football team. Tim would have less of a problem with that, because he headbutts and beats up the big bad darkies. He also fantasizes about beating up the tarbabies that stole his headlights.
Hell, they probably would have tried to rob him if he had been there, so they would have had it coming.
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-04-11 13:16:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Innocent until proven still the law, right?
Didn't seem so here. I took the high road, reserved judgement.
Glad I did.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 13:02:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
**From my experience with strippers that makes no sense. If anything she was trying to get more money to go back in. You don't get strippers fired because they left a party they don't feel safe at.**
Maybe you would know more about that than I would. I've never been a stripper myself but I think it is perfectly reasonable to at least consider the scenario that she got freaked out, tried to leave, and was told that if she didn't go back in she would not get paid and/or get fired.
Why is that crazy? You don't know any more about her or her situation than I do. Even if that were not true, how do you know she wouldn't have believed it. Hell, how do you know it isn't true. If she had left without dancing why would they pay? According to the paper, she's a single mom working her way through college so obviously she needed the money.
Rumor has it, her parents didn't know what she (cough) did for a living so I doubt she would bring these charges just for shits and giggles. Maybe she's nuts who knows like I said I don't know what happened and prefer to reserve judgment until I do.
The allegations of lewd drunken behavior does indeed go to character and paints a picture. I've been to a few parties, especially in college and I'm also pretty sure that rape in a setting like that is not entirely uncommon. Hell, I've heard of it happening. Whether it makes it to the press or cops depends on whether the girl really wants to get dragged through the mud. I believe that people like Tim refer to that sort of thing as "had it coming".
and Wookie is right, rape is certainly unacceptable but then again is it rape is she's black and a stripper? I promise this would be an entirely different story if it had been a white woman claiming that she had been raped by some guys at a black frat. Oh yes it would.
Submitted by jonukah (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:59:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
******The judicial penalties for falsely accusing someone of rape should be just as stiff as those for the crime of rape itself.****** The penalties for falsely accusing 45 people of rape should be just as stiff as the crime of raping 45 people.
The problem with penalizing false accusors is that you have the unfortunate consequence of actual victims who well be further deterred from prosecuting.
The percentage of victims who prosecute is low enough as it is. Between the flaying of character and being forced to relive the event on the stand to have any hope of conviction, not to mention the automatic cynicism and media attention that follows, I think that victims have enough to overcome without having to fear jail-time if they can't prove their case.
As with most legislation, I think you have to choose the lessor of two evils: Accused innocents getting defamed, or denying justice to real victims.
I don't know what the numbers are, but if they were available, I bet that the spread would clearly indicate that the occasional male getting falsely accused and later vindicated is worth making the path to trial and conviction a bit easier for the real victims.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:54:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:50:47 (#)
Ranking: 0
What I do find curious is that you immediately pulled the trigger on "lying whore" without knowing all the facts - or any of the facts truth be told.
I also find it rather ironic that somehow being an "exotic dancer" automatically makes someone a whore and yet going to see said exotic dancing is well nothing out of the ordinary and certainly nothing that I am allowed to condemn someone for.
If she is a whore so are they and you as well if memory of past posts serves.
and that my friend is what feminism is, you know what's good for the goose...
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You don't think it is odd that just because they are male mostly white athletes you automatically assume that their parents paid for everything and buy their way out of trouble making them think rape is ok?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:51:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:24:37 (#)
Ranking: 0
"She left and someone from the party came out and talked her into going back inside. Someone in the area heard someone, a male someone, yelling something about money. Just a guess here, but he could have been telling her that if she didn't come back in and do the little show then he would have her fired or some such rich little spoiled piece of shit Duke lacrosse player tactic."
From my experience with strippers that makes no sense. If anything she was trying to get more money to go back in. You don't get strippers fired because they left a party they don't feel safe at.
"Part of the problem a HUGE part of the problem is that a few years ago Duke implemented a no alcohol on campus policy. This means that all the frats and apparently sports teams moved their houses to areas in the community. There have been so many complaints from the non stop parties that the university has bought a few of the houses, kicked out the frats, and put them up for sale. It's a huge ugly mess but yea I'd say that at the very least scholarships should be yanked for this sort of bullshit."
That would have happened anywhere if there was a mass exodous of students to off campus.
"The pissing in public, noise, public drunkenness may not in itself be that big of a deal, but yea it goes to character. The fact that the coach, university, parents... just did whatever they needed to do to get the kids off has certainly contributed to this. That boys will be boys attitude only escalates this behavior and makes them think they can get away with anything they want to."
I have had noise violations, pissing in public and public drunkenness citations. I paid for college myself, my parents didn't get me off of these charges, where I went to school it was a simple fine. Paying a fine for this is a very far cry from thinking you can get away with anything. If the stripper had past citations for pubic drunkenness would that matter? I don't think so, but people would be going apeshit that it was even brought up.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:50:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Fair? Do I think it was fair for the lacrosse team none of whom came forward to answer the allegations and/or to tell what they know to be vilified by their own fellow Duke students? Do I think it's fair that assuming that something did happen at that party, the team members adhered to some sort of bullshit honor code and refuse to talk about what they know?
Do I care?
gosh not really no
All along she said it was 3 guys so even if everything she said was god's own truth, the other 42 are only persons of interest.
What I do find curious is that you immediately pulled the trigger on "lying whore" without knowing all the facts - or any of the facts truth be told.
I also find it rather ironic that somehow being an "exotic dancer" automatically makes someone a whore and yet going to see said exotic dancing is well nothing out of the ordinary and certainly nothing that I am allowed to condemn someone for.
If she is a whore so are they and you as well if memory of past posts serves.
and that my friend is what feminism is, you know what's good for the goose...
Submitted by wookie (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:40:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:33:21 (#)
Ranking: 0
The "boys will be boys" may apply to getting drunk and peeing places and getting into fights. It sure as hell does not apply to getting away with rape.
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You're not really familiar with lacrosse culture, are you? Particularly at Duke. Or, if you are, you're in serious denial.
Let's pretend for a moment the stripper WAS raped. Do want to know what at least half of those lacrosse players' parents are thinking? It's something along the lines of this: "So what. She was a nigger stripper whore, and there's no way I'm going to allow my son to be punished for this."
Submitted by munkeypants (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:35:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
She can't be charged with filing false charges?
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:35:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"The pissing in public, noise, public drunkenness may not in itself be that big of a deal, but yea it goes to character. "
did you really just say that making a lot of noise contributes to being a bad person?
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:33:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't want to argue whether or not she was raped. let the courts decide that. As I said in the first paragraph, for the purpose of argument, let's assume she wasn't.
and loki, you still haven't answered the question: do you really believe that it is right that all it takes is the word of one woman and zero evidence and a man's (or 45 in this case) name and face is plastered all over the news?
I agree with you, that the coach seems to be the only honorable one in this whole mess. But I hate how the media, and you, keep bringing up the kid's record of getting drunk, pissing on things, and public intoxication, as an indication of character. Because I get drunk at a bar, walk home, piss in an alley, does that make me a bad person? of course not. it surely doesn't make me a rapist.
The "boys will be boys" may apply to getting drunk and peeing places and getting into fights. It sure as hell does not apply to getting away with rape.
Submitted by TheSpook (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:30:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
"Something needs to change."
Legalization of rape should do the trick.
Submitted by AsshOly (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:30:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by wookie (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:19:24 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:11:38 (#)
Ranking: 0
A powerful argument Loki, yet as you say there is doubt about these boys' guilt. Until it is known who is guilty it seems rather irresponsible to release names at all.
Innocent until proven guilty and all that.
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Are you fucking kidding me? When, in America, are the names of the accused NOT released? Only when they're under 18 years of age as far as I know.
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When I was in high school we had a Latin King beaten to death across the street from my school with boards with nails in them and baseball bats. When I got home from my swim meet that day I turned on Fox news and the first thing I saw was the faces and names of six GD's (or some other fucknut gang, maybe they were even kings...I dont know), four of whom were under eighteen. Nobody had even been taken into custody yet.
Submitted by MyNameIsTim (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:24:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by CookieLass (user info) at 2006-04-11 11:56:34 (#)
Ranking: 2
The average rape sentence in this country is between 3 and 5 years. The average time served for rape in this country is between 9 and 18 months. Less than 60% of rape cases actually make it to trial, and of those, less than 50% are actually found guilty and sentenced to any time. How's that for pathetic? You get more time in jail for having an ounce of weed on you than you do for raping someone. Or manslaughter, for that matter.
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i had no idea that the average sentence was that low. i'll have to research that. surely it should be waaaay longer.
so if 60% of cases make it to trial, and 50% of those are convicted...does that mean that only 30% of cases are true? or that 70% of accussees are innocent? or that 70% of rapists get off scot-free?
we don't know. that's my point. i'm sure some of them were falsely accused, and some are rapists who got off. both are horrible. but that statistic proves absolutely nothing.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-04-11 12:24:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't know who released the names or how all of this ended up being such a big story when the facts are so fuzzy.
Here they are not reporting that she **begged** to get back in. What they are reporting was that she thought that she was going to a bachelor party of about 5 or 6 and when she showed up, there was a huge party going on.
She left and someone from the party came out and talked her into going back inside. Someone in the area heard someone, a male someone, yelling something about money. Just a guess here, but he could have been telling her that if she didn't come back in and do the little show then he would have her fired or some such rich little spoiled piece of shit Duke lacrosse player tactic.
I don't think the coach quit specifically because of the rape allegation. I don't think it helped, but I think he quit because if nothing else, it is pretty clear that he has lost control over the team. Like it or not, they're behavior reflects rather badly on him and he fell on his sword. He may be the only honorable person in the whole sordid tale who knows unlike Tim, the media, and half the planet, I was waiting until the entire story unfolded before I passed any judgment one