Was Charles Manson Crazy? (3306 hits)
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Submitted by Bubba2341 (View user info) at 2006-05-07 11:01:32 EDT
Last night we watched a rerun of "Helter Skelter," the 1976 movie about Charles Manson and the Tate-LaBianca murders in August 1969. Although I remember when it happened, I looked up Manson on the Internet and read several articles, both chronological histories and the thoughts of people who tried to make some sense of the carnage. Either the theories were very far-fetched or Manson was insane.
The members of the Manson Family, those who were so completely under his domination, all had either criminal backgrounds or severe emotional problems. Many of the girls were runaways who were drawn by the hippie lifestyle of California in the late 1960s. These people, especially the women, revered Manson as though he were a god; some even said he was Jesus Christ. At other times he was called Satan.
Charlie was reputed to be of average intelligence, according to tests done when he was a young man in the penal system. That assessment is bogus. No one of average intellect could control others so completely, causing them to kill and steal for him. I have read much about brainwashing, and it is usually orchestrated by fairly smart folks.
Over the years, then as well as now, I read Manson quotes and saw several interviews. Charlie often uses convoluted sentence structure and backhanded logic, but he is far from average in the brains department. His major shortcoming seems to be either disdain for police abilities or a blatant disregard for incarceration, for he could seldom stay out of jail/prison for more than a year or two at a time. One wonders how many things Charlie did for which he was never caught.
Even with emotionally disturbed persons, the use of drugs and sex cannot explain how Charlie got them to follow him so unconditionally. He and his girls stayed at Beach Boy Dennis Wilson's house for about a year, but Wilson was not similarly controlled. What was different? I contend that the great majority of his followers were not only disturbed, but not too bright as well. Consider their courtroom actions, their statements, and their general stupidity when dealing with the police. Those were not the indicators of brainpower.
How does one flaunt authority in public as Manson did? The only answer I see is that he just didn't care. Insanity is the first thought most people have, but nowI think it runs much deeper. Perhaps District Attorney Bugliosi was correct in his Helter Skelter theory. Charlie is quoted as believing that The Beatles were Angels who were sending him messages concerning Armageddon, and the song Revolution #9 was meant as Revelation: 9.
Charlie saw himself in a distorted way as the leader and savior of Mankind. Perhaps he is one of those people who run things through their mind until they begin to believe their own imaginings. Is self-delusion a form of insanity? I suppose it is when it is in direct conflict with everyone else's reality. So are all murders insane? Some folks say so, others say not. The courts certainly think most are sane.
I never heard or read one thing about anyone mounting an insanity plea for Charlie. Why not? If what he did doesn't point to an unbalanced guy, then there are no unbalanced guys. Believing one is an Angel in conjunction with orchestrating mass murder and orgies qualifies as wacko in my book.
Did Charlie spend any time under psychological evaluation after he was convicted? I don't recall reading of such, but my surface reading could have missed it. I still say a fruitcake has nothing on Charlie.
Charlie has been denied parole many times since his present prison term began, and he has been quoted several times concerning prison. He feels that prison is his home, and that he is incapable of living in the outside world. He told them that when he was released back in 1967, but no one listened. The law is the law, and prison officials and cops are not generally noted for bucking the system.
Much has been made of Charlie's rejection by the music industry, and several factors tie together that rejection with the house on Cielo drive where the Tates lived. Coupled with Manson's hate for the establishment, many puzzle pieces appear to fall into place. Add to that the testimony of his idea of Helter Skelter and you come up with one sick dude. I suppose everyone has an End of The World concept, but most of us don't presume we will be the leader thereof. All of us have been rejected for something or by someone but, luckily, we don't usually respond by committing mass murder.
So why did Linda whatshername testify against Charlie while his other girls stuck by him until the end, even to the point of one of his girls trying to assassinate President Ford in 1975? Was Linda really sickened by what she had done, or did she see a way to stay out of prison? She was reputedly convicted of later crimes and did prison time, so apparently any sickening was short-lived.
Charlie blamed the establishment and thought the musical messages from the Beatles showed everything wrong with society, although the Beatles were considered only the messengers. Why was Charlie the only one to interpret their message in such a way? As is often true with religious revelations, Charlie heard exactly what he wanted to hear.
Blaming "The Man" and "The Establishment" for all that was wrong with society was already a huge bandwagon, and Charlie was only another passenger.
Richard Nixon, then President of the USA, stated that Manson was guilty, even before the trial concluded. What an idiot! An attorney, let alone the President, should have known better. Nixon had been in office for about a year when he made his pronouncement. He should have been booted out then and saved us a lot of later grief!
Why do those in power think they are allowed to make asinine comments?
Charlie comes up for parole again in 2007(?). There is no way in hell he will ever be released from prison. Why do you think the folks who take over schools and kill dozens of kids usually kill themselves? Charlie turned 71 years old on November 12, 2005. The odds are that he will die in prison and his personal reasons for the carnage he caused will accompany him to his grave.
User Reviews
Submitted by PlatinumScarecrow (user info) at 2009-08-05 15:23:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
No Comment
Submitted by sandmantate (user info) at 2009-01-23 17:46:37 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
This seems like fun.
Submitted by icarus1987 (user info) at 2009-01-23 17:26:21 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
me too.
Submitted by scourge (user info) at 2009-01-23 17:17:13 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
every time you review any post of mine, no matter what the rating or batshit insane words used, i'm going to -2 five of your posts just to watch you go fuckng nuts.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2008-12-29 19:03:38 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
That's the fact, Jack. I went to special education in school.
Submitted by scourge (user info) at 2008-12-29 18:47:43 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
leave bubba alone.
he's special.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2008-12-29 18:43:10 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Thanks for the retal, suckboy.
Submitted by ColchesterDr (user info) at 2008-12-29 18:26:25 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
No Comment
Submitted by GetNakeddd (user info) at 2006-07-17 23:56:26 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
By agreement
Submitted by TheSpook (user info) at 2006-05-08 23:04:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
"Let's seperate the users from the whores"
Submitted by knucklesnelson (user info) at 2006-05-08 22:42:26 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by wookie (user info) at 2006-05-08 17:42:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
He's not crazy...he's just misunderstood.
Submitted by BadAssJulie (user info) at 2006-05-08 17:32:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I think he definately has mental issues but I think he was sane enough to know what he was doing. I knew a lady who worked at the prison where Susan Atkins and Patricia something are. She said Susan tries to act like she's found Jesus or whatever and she's super religious but she's really a cruel bitch. She attacks other inmates when the guards aren't looking and shit like that.
Submitted by Jeanneee (user info) at 2006-05-08 16:17:06 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Sane people don't entice others to murder a bunch of random strangers just for fun. Also, they tend not to tattoo swastikas on their faces.
Submitted by malkavian (user info) at 2006-05-08 16:09:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
"Shit man, I'm a natural born killer..."
"It's just murder. All God's creatures do it. You look in the forests and you see species killing other species, our species killing all species including the forests, and we just call it industry, not murder. "
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2006-05-07 23:31:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
At least they're not showing up the rest of the teams in the competition by having a good name, then. That'd just be flat out embarrassing.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-05-07 23:04:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Stag, you're right about the stupid name. It's the Colorado Rapids. :-/
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-05-07 22:59:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2006-05-07 22:54:43 (#)
Ranking: 2
Most of the Yank teams have really daft names, like Chicago Fire. I've no idea what CO's one is. Aussie teams have shite names too, like Perth Glory. Is it just me or does Perth Glory sound like a really decadent sexual position?
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I think it's a hole in the wall in the Perth Saloon.
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2006-05-07 22:54:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Most of the Yank teams have really daft names, like Chicago Fire. I've no idea what CO's one is. Aussie teams have shite names too, like Perth Glory. Is it just me or does Perth Glory sound like a really decadent sexual position?
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-05-07 22:50:20 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2006-05-07 22:44:16 (#)
Ranking: 2
Hmm, well, I dunno. I mean, sure, we finished the season strong, 4-0 at home to Charlton, but where the fuck were all those goals when we needed them? Three previous games without scoring, 0-0 Borough, 0-0 Sunderland, for fuck's sake and a 3-0 tonking by Chelsea. I'm amazed we took home second place with that kind of form, it just shows how weak every team but Chelsea is in the modern Premier League. And we finally hit goalscoring form after Van Nistelrooy was left out and then drove away from the stadium in a huff, AND Rooney got injured. We played Charlton with a Reserves striker and Saha, and Rossi was always a threat even if he didn't score.
You wanted off-topic, you got it.
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In similar news, the wonderful state of Colorado now has a soccer team.
I have no clue what they are called.
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2006-05-07 22:45:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Oh, and Manson was nuts. Smart, though.
I'm such a thinker.
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2006-05-07 22:44:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Hmm, well, I dunno. I mean, sure, we finished the season strong, 4-0 at home to Charlton, but where the fuck were all those goals when we needed them? Three previous games without scoring, 0-0 Borough, 0-0 Sunderland, for fuck's sake and a 3-0 tonking by Chelsea. I'm amazed we took home second place with that kind of form, it just shows how weak every team but Chelsea is in the modern Premier League. And we finally hit goalscoring form after Van Nistelrooy was left out and then drove away from the stadium in a huff, AND Rooney got injured. We played Charlton with a Reserves striker and Saha, and Rossi was always a threat even if he didn't score.
You wanted off-topic, you got it.
Submitted by ConorJS (user info) at 2006-05-07 18:57:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by COMountain (user info) at 2006-05-07 16:45:38 (#)
Ranking: 2
...like a FOX!!
=======================
I'm hearing Denis Leary right now.
Submitted by EntityErased (user info) at 2006-05-07 18:16:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I have no idea. I'm gonna say maybe.
All the smart ones seem to be crazy.
Interesting fact: I share a birthday with Charles Manson.
Submitted by matnotharry (user info) at 2006-05-07 17:45:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by COMountain (user info) at 2006-05-07 16:45:38 (#)
Ranking: 2
...like a FOX!!
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This initiated a snot rocket which hit the mouse
Submitted by COMountain (user info) at 2006-05-07 16:45:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
...like a FOX!!
Submitted by G-prime (user info) at 2006-05-07 14:30:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Yeah sure the man was nuts, but there aint nothing wrong with atwa. And who defines nuts anyway? Pretty much just the norm, isn't it? "Being crazy is only being a minority of one" Eric Arthur Blair.
We're all nuts, you know? He just had guts. I mean, he didn't actually kill anybody. He got other people to do it. Read the transcripts from his trials. They are interesting, to say the least. In what he says, there would seem to be nothing to indicate insanity.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-05-07 13:51:26 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Yeah, Charlie was totally batshit crazy.
Fgirl, if you ever need help tweaking your melon. lemme know. . .
Submitted by Sphagnum (user info) at 2006-05-07 13:49:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by forensicgirl3 (user info) at 2006-05-07 13:47:29 (#)
Ranking: 2
I could kick Skeletor's ass. I'm sure of it.
Ima go take a nap now.
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If it was a competition to see who weighed the least, you could.
Submitted by Sphagnum (user info) at 2006-05-07 13:48:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I like it when ForensicGirl gets angry.
It gives me a reason not to cut myself.
Submitted by forensicgirl3 (user info) at 2006-05-07 13:47:29 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I could kick Skeletor's ass. I'm sure of it.
Ima go take a nap now.
Submitted by forensicgirl3 (user info) at 2006-05-07 13:45:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
As to answer your question Bubbs, I say that:
Manson, although sociopathic, indeed has psychotic tendencies and thought processes.
Just b/c you're as crazy as a shithouse rat DOES NOT mean you're stupid.
he knew exactly what he was doing.
BUT he does have an infestation of bats in his belfry.
Is he "crazy?" FUCK YEAH! Is he guilty? OH FUCK YEAH!
But, this is just my opinion.
Submitted by Sphagnum (user info) at 2006-05-07 13:38:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I want to blow all over your bones, Skeletor.
Submitted by forensicgirl3 (user info) at 2006-05-07 13:30:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Definiton of Insanity: In the legal system, the presence of 'mens rea' or "a guilty mind" is essential to the classification of an illegal act. Guilt requires not only the commission of an illegal act, but a state of mind reflecting awareness of its implications.
Currently in the various jurisdictions, several definitions of insanity are used.
The NGRI or Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity. The McNaughton Rule falls here. McNaughton Rule states that 1) The defendant was suffering from "a defect of reason, from a disease of the mind." 2) As a result, the defendant did not "know" the "nature and quality of the act he/she was doing" 3) An inquiry has been carried out to determine whether the defendant knew "what he/she was doing was wrong."
The McNaughton test is called a cognitive test of insanity b/c it examines the person's thought processes and perceptions of reality at the time of the crime.
The Irresistible Impulse Standard. Arose from criticisms of McNaughton and its narrow focus on the defendant's cognitive knowledge. The Irresistible Impulse exception allowed that even if the defendant demonstrated cognitive knowledge of right/wrong, he/she could still be found not guilty by reason of insanity if his/her free will were so destroyed or overruled that the person had lost the power to choose between right and wrong. When referring to this loss of ability to control one's behavior, the courts sometimes refer to the "volitional aspect of insanity."
The Durham Test. Again sprung from criticisms of McNaughton. Precedence established in the case of Durham v. United States. The Durham rule states the accused is not criminally responsible if his/her unlawful act was a product of mental disease or defect. This (obviously) soon became a problem. Shrinks brought in to testify as to the defendants mental state took the term "mental disease" to mean ANY familiar clinical diagnostic label--AS THEIR PROFESSION TEACHES THEM TO DO.
This is where problems arise between the legal system and Psychology. In the simplest conceptualization, it is a language problem. Psychology and Law can be viewed as speaking different languages. What a word means in one profession does not always mean the same in the other.
The ALI Standard (aka, Brawner Rule). Arose from criticisms of Durham. The ALI Standard seeks comprehensiveness. It basically states; A person is not responsible for criminal conduct if at the time of the action, as a result of mental disease or defect, he/she lacks SUBSTANTIAL capacity EITHER to appreciate the criminality of his/her conduct or to conform his/her conduct to the requirements of the law. Important to note that the term "mental disease or defect" DOES NOT include an abnormality manifested ONLY by repeated criminal or otherwise anti-social conduct.
i.e. if you are just some asshole sociopath, YOU ARE NOT OFF THE HOOK JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE LEGITIMATE PSYCHIATRIC DIAGNOSIS OF ANITSOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDER!!!!
21 of the U.S.'s states use ALI.
There is also the Guilty BUT Mentally Ill Verdict. Nutshelled this basically means that even though a defendant has been found to be mentally ill, they can still be found guilty and subject to punishment either through incarceration at a prison or incarceration in a mental institution for the duration of their sentence (even if it is life).
I apologize for any typos. I was trying to type this out as fast as I could and I was going off my notes.
Entire books have been written on this. I tried to condense and nutshell it.
Damn! I LOVE my subfield of Forensic Psychology! This is the kind of thing that really tweaks my mellon.
Submitted by Beano312003 (user info) at 2006-05-07 13:01:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: -1
Meh
Submitted by Sphagnum (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:58:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I've got a GREAT idea for a post tomorrow.
Please remind me in case I forget.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:57:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Ah, C'mon now. This site has shown Caul beyond all shadow of a doubt
that Americans are all loud, ignorant fools.
Everything everyone posts here is the truth!!!! :-/
Submitted by Sphagnum (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:53:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I need to learn how to proofread.
Submitted by Sphagnum (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:52:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
You see Bubba? It's very easy to mislead or manipulate people when their only basis for formulating an opinion are the words that you type on a message board.
You know as well as I do that If someone comes along and starts posting under the guise of a 20 year old, blonde, leggy poledance. You really have no way of accurately verifying whether they are or aren't who they say they are. Which is a clear demonstration of how hollow a relationship based solely through actions on this site really is.
I signed up here just over a year ago now and quickly learnt that the best way to garner attention was to make sure that everybody knew who you were. Times have changed since then and there are more and more factions popping up where attention is constant and unbridled.
I decided not to change the way I approached things. That's just me.
I sit in front of a computer, all night, every night and the only excape from the work that I do is Ubersite.
The bait gets thrown and the bait invariably gets taken, it doesn't say anything about who I actually am and what I'm actually like. It just says that I've found a way to amuse myself in the wee hours of the morning.
I don't understand how anyone can take anything that's written on this forum seriously. That's just lunacy.
If what people say and what people do make you waste valuable energy obsessing or hating over them, then you need to find a new way to amuse yourself.
I'm certainly not saying that you do anything like that, I pretty sure it's all water off a duck's back with you too.
The problem is, there are people here who really can't let it go.
That's just stupid.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:41:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
OK, Sphag, discount the fact that I suck at typing.
Whatchoo think about Manson?
Submitted by Sphagnum (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:39:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
That's the spirit.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:37:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Sphagnum (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:35:52 (#)
Ranking: 2
Let's transfer our discussion here since you went to the trouble of writing this. It might as well be rewarded with some hits and reviews, regardless of how off-topic they are.
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Fine by me.
Stagger_Lee. Yeah, you murdering man of song. I think you
owe me and Sphaggy a beer for all that heat. A fossil and
an embryo sling shit. Film at eleven.
Submitted by Sphagnum (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:35:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Let's transfer our discussion here since you went to the trouble of writing this. It might as well be rewarded with some hits and reviews, regardless of how off-topic they are.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:27:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Missing the space bar between 'now' and 'I' is a true typo, friend.
Not a grammatical error.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:26:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
OK, Sphag, you got your revenge. BTW, when used in a generic sense, 'god'
need not be capitalized.
Submitted by Sphagnum (user info) at 2006-05-07 12:15:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
"revered Manson as though he were a god; some even said he was Jesus Christ. At other times he was called Satan."
Proper nouns : Manson, God, Jesus Christ and Satan. God was not capitalized = -1
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"but nowI think it runs much deeper."
'nowI' is not a word = -1
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"So are all murders insane?"
The collective noun for a group of people who engage in murder is "murderers". = -1
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0 - 3 = -3
This is a ridiculous way to critique something on this site, isn't it?
Submitted by extacy_red (user info) at 2006-05-07 11:48:19 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
he was one weird dude to say the least.
you make sense.
Submitted by mockidol (user info) at 2006-05-07 11:35:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: -1
Yes, he is/ was, whatever.