An Atheist's Perspective on the Value of Religion (1500 hits)
Category: NoneRating: 1.07 on 120 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by goferforhire <goferforhire.at.yahoo.com> (View user info) at 2006-08-30 09:54:30 EDT
I've seen a few posts lately, mostly written by Foolproof, that completely condemn even the idea of religion. Now, as the title indicates, I'm an atheist of a certain breed. I don't believe in God, and I think that religion has a load of problems on its proverbial head. However, I'm not so hypocritically intolerant as to say that it's an utter abomination and serves no purpose. There's nothing in this world that serves no purpose... except maybe for some of the users on this site.
What I don't like about religion is that it makes decisions for you. It tells you what to believe and holds you to it. It takes spirituality out of the hands of the individual and into the hands of a collective, which ultimately drywalls spiritual growth. I also don't like how people care so much about it that they kill in it's name, but that's more of a human nature issue I have than an issue with religion. But enough of that and on to the actual point of the post: the value of religion.
The principle value of any religion (and I said this in a reply at some point) is its discipline. The most obvious and valuable example is the Buddhist faith and its meditative disciplines, but the Muslim prayer schedule and fastings, the Jewish Sabbath and Holidays, and even simply going to the Christian Church on Sundays or praying to any God on a regular basis enforces a kind of spiritual and intellectual discipline. The atheist by him or herself may not find this discipline anywhere else (though to be sure, it can be found if atheism is approached philosophically enough.)
Things like meditation and church attendance do several things for you: they remind you what you believe (even if it's not Buddhism or Christianity) and why you believe it, they force you to keep thinking about it, they keep your mind sharp spiritually and intellectually, and they add a layer of stability to your existance. To regularly pray is to understand yourself, not to understand any sort of God. Meditation, in my opinion, is the best form of spiritual discipline because it is more of an intentional act of self discovery.
Without this discipline, the spiritual and intellectual mind will tend to decay. If you don't use a muscle, you won't keep it, that simple. The result is people like Foolproof who in their own way mirror what they despise about religion perfectly- they don't question anything, they are intolerant of others, and their spiritual mind is corrupted. To say 'Christianity is the devil' or even 'Religion is for the weak-minded' is just as escapist if not more as saying that 'Jews are going to hell' or 'infidels serve only to die or be converted.'
When you close your mind to possibilities, it loses room to grow and you suffer the consequences.
WTF, I'm not reading all that, I don't give a shit.
User Reviews
Submitted by Maltese (user info) at 2006-09-05 13:22:42 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I'm +2ing all your posts as a sign of good faith. I just want to show that there is no animosity between us. Friends?
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-31 09:41:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
You could, and if they were still true then all the better
Submitted by Berty (user info) at 2006-08-31 04:23:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I disagree with the sanctimonious approach to meditation. I mean you could apply your words to sleeping and having crazy dreams or talking to yourself.
Submitted by Banga3386 (user info) at 2006-08-31 02:18:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Well said brother.
Banga
Submitted by ripple (user info) at 2006-08-30 22:12:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
cats cradle by kurt vonnegut describes the value of false religion the best.
the book is about a religion a man made up and declared as false. despite this, the religion gained an impressive following and helped many characters understand their lives and situations. vonnegut says at the very beginning (im paraphrasing slightly because i dont have a copy on hand), "if you do not understand how a made-up religion can be useful, you won't understand this book, either."
religion maintains a degree of order and gives people a purpose. while i think a truly advanced society may not have a NEED for religion, i cant condemn it because of how it can give people (on an individual, if not universal, basis) a moral compass and goal in life.
i agree with this post.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 21:20:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
yay Stagger
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2006-08-30 21:18:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Success.
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2006-08-30 21:17:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
I want to see if this puts the post over 1.0.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 21:02:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
depends on the price of dinner.
Submitted by whysenheimer (user info) at 2006-08-30 20:58:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 20:56:59 (#)
Ranking: 0
I may stink, but at least I get laid anyway.
How much do you pay?
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 20:56:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I may stink, but at least I get laid anyway. I think it's more of a sexy musk, really.
Submitted by whysenheimer (user info) at 2006-08-30 20:55:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
You stink.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 20:50:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
1.08 on 108 reviews
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 20:49:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Jonny- nothing we doo will get the Joo to stop bombing the A-rabs. Accept kill both of them
Submitted by gank (user info) at 2006-08-30 20:46:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Well, it was just a shot in the dark. Read one or not. They're too of my favorites (for various reasons).
And I don't know why I didn't +2 this earlier. Lazy I guess. I appreciate the thoughtfulness of it.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 20:41:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
And Jgreening- you're looking at a post by a card-carrying (atheistic) Episcopalian.
Which diocese was your grandmother in?
VA Diocese is the shit.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 20:31:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Gank: I haven't read either of those, but I might.
Rofl: I await it patiently
Foolproof: I'm all about the reasonable debating.
Sacrilicious: Sounds good to me.
Submitted by Sacrilicious (user info) at 2006-08-30 19:36:19 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I agree with you to a degree, gofer. I'd never say religion serves no purpose, or that good things don't come from it. I also agree that many people who are not, in fact, devout in any faith can find such a routine to be grounding. However, I do think the word "spiritual" is overused. I've used it myself, then asked myself exactly what I meant by it. "I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual"..what does it mean, really? That I believe in "something?" Don't we all?
As an agnostic with a desire to stay centered and to celebrate humanity, I've considered turning to the Unitarian Universalists for a nondenominational, not-necessarily-Judeo-Christian-centric place to go on a Sunday. However, I also realize that going to a rock'n'roll show and soaking in the humanity is a better way to renew my spirit, and much more exciting.
Submitted by Axolotl (user info) at 2006-08-30 19:10:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
No Comment
Submitted by gank (user info) at 2006-08-30 17:30:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
gofer, you ever read "Orthodoxy" or "The Everlasting Man" by GK Chesterton?
Submitted by r0fl (user info) at 2006-08-30 16:55:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Well thought out arguement. I believe r0fl will post about religion now.
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-08-30 16:44:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Indo, I think the point he might be trying to make is that it's the people practicing the religion, not the religion itself.
Sure, there are PEOPLE practicing Christianity who feel that their religion must be forced upon the masses as a moral and legislative code, but nowhere in the religion itself is that expressed. And there are many deeply religious people who DON'T push their religion. Sadly, those who DO happen to have the public eye.
My grandmother was a perfect example of the former, though.
She was a DEVOUT Episcopalian. I'm talking a 10% tithe, same church for 50 years, church 4 times a week DEVOUT. She was such a friend of the church, at her funeral at St. Michaels, three bishops attended, all had been Jr. Preists at that parish during her life. And at home, she was as moral as they got. If you so much as THOUGHT of a curse word, she'd pull out an old yardstick and wail your ass until sitting was a myth.
And yet she was a card carrying Democrat who started a petition drive when "Under God" was put into the Pledge of Allegiance back in the 50's.
I can remember back when I was 10-11 years old during Desert Storm, arguments between her and my Dad (who's a Rushophile Republican) about how religion could be used in the war. He was all for taking out the "unholy Islamic assholes" and she said something to the effect of "I don't care if they're Godless Satanists. You don't use religion as an excuse to govern."
THAT is the kind of person I think he's talking about.
Submitted by gank (user info) at 2006-08-30 16:33:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Violence "in the name of religion" is bullshit. Was Stalin's violence "in the name of communism" less egregious? Violence is a tragedy in and of itself. If you want to put degrees on it, then you're merely doing it to slap religion around a little bit. And you're being intellectually dishonest.
Yes I'm sure there were people that killed in the name of Jesus. They were wrong. Just like the muslims who killed in the name of Allah were wrong. And are still wrong today.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 16:15:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 16:06:57 (#)
Ranking: 0
There is no use continuing this.
Thank you, gofer, at least you can debate intellectually without bring personal insults into the fray like others do.
Good day, sir.
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I hope this wasn't directed at me.
I am honestly baffeled how you envision a world where the religious leave the secular alone and vice versa.
Maybe a big wall so they could never see each other? or how about a ban on all public speaking or displays that have anything to do with religion? maybe seperate cable packages and news papers so you can never mistakenly read anything about the other group.
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2006-08-30 16:07:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
As long as the Joos still get to bomb A-rabs, i agree
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 16:06:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
There is no use continuing this.
Thank you, gofer, at least you can debate intellectually without bring personal insults into the fray like others do.
Good day, sir.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:58:34 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:03:04 (#)
Ranking: 0
I have NEVER said that anybody shouldn't have religion. I have stated that the religious should leaave the secular alone.
Unfortunately, that doesn't happen. Everyday I am bombarded from every angle by religion. My money, courthouses, laws, the news...EVERYWHERE.
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Neither group lives in a fucking vaccuum.
Nobody should leave someone else alone because they don't like their message. Once you do that you make talking about religion a taboo, or worse you give fuel to the people who say the secular should leave the religious alone. Do you think art that involves Mary, or Mohammed should be illegal? the is the natural extension of one group leaving the other "alone".
If you feel you are being "bombarded" and forced into some religion because it says god on money, or you happen to see the ten commandments then maybe you are the problem. If your beliefs are so fucking fragile, maybe you should re-examine them.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:27:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
your poorly spelled point, Life101?
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:27:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Pay attention- I didn't say it's the only avenue. You're talking about physical, social, intellectual and moral discipline, and I'm talking about spiritual discipline.
Your understanding of prayer is also pathetic-
Prayer isn't "a wish"- that's a selfish, childish kind of prayer. Prayer is a dialogue with yourself, which you don't get the same way with weightlifting, walking or obeying the law.
I really don't understand why you think behaving yourself in society makes you disciplined. It just makes you a law-abiding citizen.
As for those in the church who fail to do that, they're not praying correctly. It's as simple as that- some people fail, it's what happens. I never said Religion was an automatic intelligence booster (although evidence shows that meditative disciplines boost brain power) I said it's an avenue that, if pursued correctly, will lead to a spiritual discipline you really won't get out of anything else.
And if you don't find some kind of spiritual discipline, you'll decay from the inside out.
Submitted by Life101 (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:26:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
When you close your mind to possibilities, it loses room to grow and you suffer the consequences.
Everyone dose that...
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:19:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Christ on the cross, man! I already said discipline can not only be found in religion.
I am athiest. I finished college. I don't break laws. I'm a normal citizen.
Religion didn't do that. I did.
Prayers are wishes, nothing more. Does wishing I win the lottery make me more disciplined? I think not.
Meditation is a form of discipline, but doesn't automatically make you more disciplined.
Discipline is self mad.
There are plenty of people that pray and meditate breaking laws and acting "undisciplined".
That is something you can't deny. Ergo, your "religion instills discipline" theory is invalid.
A person is as responsible as they want to be.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:16:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
and people disagreeing with you doesn't prove your point, except for the few that do it poorly- which are usually just people trying to be funny anyway.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:15:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
fuck it, make that: as long as you're talking
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:14:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
How many times do I have to say "this has nothing to do with theology" before your skull cracks open enough to let a little light in?
I'm talking about self-discipline, which judging by your repetitive, vitriolic, ignorant and ultimately purposeless talk about Christianity and religions in general, you don't have enough of.
It doesn't matter who you're talking to, as long as someone's listening.
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:12:03 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Yeah, but only 9th Most Heated.
I don't "condemn" religion.
Like I said, If you want to believe it - fine.
Stop asking me to (I know you aren't).
I just want to point out things in the bible and get answers for them.
Intelligent answers.
Unfortunately, the more devout of us just attack those posts. Again proving my point that religion DOES NOT make you a more loving and respectful person.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:09:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
if the proof is in the pudding, I'm guessing someone swallowed it by mistake.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:08:12 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
he was right... I did make most heated
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:07:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm not asking you to believe anything, Foolproof. I'm not a Christian, why the fuck would I want to make you be one?
I'm just telling you that you only hurt yourself by being bitter about your atheism and saying that you, like anyone else, can benefit from a proper discipline like meditation or prayer. I didn't discuss theology at all, though I could if it became necessary.
Submitted by The_Mighty_Badger (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:04:51 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 14:38:08 (#)
Ranking: 0
Badger- if you want to go on believing that you're clever and intelligent and a capable reviewer despite an inability to write, more power to you.
I reserve the right to laugh at you as you fondle my nuts.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
The proof is in the pudding, or in this case the reviews. I am AMAZING. Remember that.
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 15:03:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Two groups you can never effectively debate with: the devout and the unintelligent.
The devout will just say "My veiws are right and you will never understand.".
The unitelligent will say "Shut the fuck up, dickface."
I have NEVER said that anybody shouldn't have religion. I have stated that the religious should leaave the secular alone.
Unfortunately, that doesn't happen. Everyday I am bombarded from every angle by religion. My money, courthouses, laws, the news...EVERYWHERE.
We are in the "War" on Terror because of one thing - religion. Not all religions are bad, I know that. I know alot about Christianity because that was my "birth" religion, but my parents were kind enough to let me make up my own mind when I got older. I saw it and recognized it as brainwashing bullshit.
That's my view. I'm not wrong, except to the devout.
I don't believe in God for many reasons. The main being the argument over creation. Devout people will ask "where did it all come from to start" when you mention the Big Bang. They will not, however, question where God came from. He just always was and it's that simple.
That is a ridiculous belief. You can't fathom that one thing just always was, but another is that way. Then they say the Theory of Evolution. Theory. Unproven belief, paraphrased.
What about God? He's not proven. Isn't He a theory?
Not to the devout.
See where I'm going with this?
I refuse to believe in something unless it's proven.
Gravity? Proven.l
Souls? Not so much.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 14:53:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Loki- I said nothing about religion being the only discipline. I think it's the most effective spiritual discipline, but it's certainly not the only discipline. Running, lifting weights, studying for a class, eating healthily- these are physical and intellectual disciplines.
As for the whole "choose your own religion" bit, what parent out there doesn't influence their child's religious choices. Do you think your parents let you be what you want when you're below a certain age? Religion is ingrained in us from day one. For Christians- we are baptized, confirmed, lauded, given gifts at Christmas, go to church, go to sunday school. Religion chooses us, or more accurately, we have our religions chosen for us.
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-08-30 14:48:05 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
no
where to begin
jeez
ok how about this
People choose their religion so it is a copout to claim that religion makes decisions for you. If people didn't buy into whatever was being taught, they would leave.
I agree that violence committed in the name of religion is one of the great travesties of human history.
I do not agree that the only way to attain discipline is through religion. What about people who work out regularly, don't you think it takes self discipline to wake up every day before you **have to** in order to go running?
That is just an example, I can think of several others like quitting smoking, not smoking to begin with, cutting back on caffeine, reading intellectually challenging books, learning a new skill, any form of art, playing a musical instrument, even keeping a house clean and maintaining a yard take discipline.
I suppose there are certain meditative properties to attending a church service, but there again it depends on the service and your attitude towards it. Most likely a lot of people are just going through the motions whereas other may have a more spiritual experience doing something they enjoy like hiking, climbing, playing an instrument, painting a picture.
we all have to find our own path in this world
My only problem with religion is that a lot of religious people feel like everyone should be on the same path they are and that is where the intolerance comes in to play.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 14:41:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Foolproof, your reviews here prove my point.
If you don't blatantly dismiss something you'll understand it more, and you won't look like a dick.
If you meditated or prayed or did something on a regular basis, you'd at least understand religion enough to not believe in it.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 14:39:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Dogma's one of my favorite movies, but I was playing pool last night instead of watching it. I've got the DVD around here somewhere.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 14:38:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Badger- if you want to go on believing that you're clever and intelligent and a capable reviewer despite an inability to write, more power to you.
I reserve the right to laugh at you as you fondle my nuts.
Submitted by Pentameter (user info) at 2006-08-30 14:23:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
So, did you watch Dogma on Comedy Central last night?
That's what this feels like.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 14:23:41 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Hookhand (user info) at 2006-08-30 14:12:36 (#)
Ranking: 2
I think if religion would stay out of the sphere of the secular public, I wouldn't have a problem.
It doesn't. In fact, most organized religions don't feel there should be a sphere of the secular public and fight to overturn decisions that separate church and state and get their non-scientific nonsense taught in public schools.
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You realize the Pope supports teaching evolution, don't you?
Submitted by Hookhand (user info) at 2006-08-30 14:12:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I think if religion would stay out of the sphere of the secular public, I wouldn't have a problem.
It doesn't. In fact, most organized religions don't feel there should be a sphere of the secular public and fight to overturn decisions that separate church and state and get their non-scientific nonsense taught in public schools.
Submitted by Laser (user info) at 2006-08-30 14:06:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Finally there is someone with sense to see that religion has a good side. Now, I'm an atheist through and through, but I agree that religious practices can bring people together as a community and raise one's self- confidence. And even though there isn't a God, there is still faith, which makes people a lot stronger inside. And stuff.
Submitted by forthewin (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:44:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Acarnis (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:40:09 (#)
Ranking: 0
"killing without cause" *
We have Hebrew translations of the Bible, which are more pure than the English ones. Now if you're saying we may not exactly know the connotations of their day; then ok, I see what you're saying.
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That is basically what I was saying, but I didn't want to argue about it because most people will go on about how they trust God to keep the traslations accurate and things like that.
How well can you really trust people that claim God told them to write this stuff down over 1000 years ago?
Submitted by forthewin (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:40:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Acarnis (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:33:29 (#)
Ranking: 2
No really, the original word in the original text was the word for murder. The word used was "ratsach." That's the word used for "killing with cause." That word is used in a few other verses; they usually deal with like manslaughter. There's other words in Hebrew for killing, such as "nakah," which is more for 'accidental' killing.
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You most definitely know more on the subject than I do. So basically what you're saying is that it means, "Don't intentionally kill people."
Submitted by Acarnis (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:40:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
"killing without cause" *
We have Hebrew translations of the Bible, which are more pure than the English ones. Now if you're saying we may not exactly know the connotations of their day; then ok, I see what you're saying.
Submitted by Acarnis (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:33:29 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
No really, the original word in the original text was the word for murder. The word used was "ratsach." That's the word used for "killing with cause." That word is used in a few other verses; they usually deal with like manslaughter. There's other words in Hebrew for killing, such as "nakah," which is more for 'accidental' killing.
Submitted by forthewin (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:20:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Acarnis (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:06:29 (#)
Ranking: 2
The verb for kill in the verse of "Thou shalt not kill" had the connotation for murder. It really says "Thou shalt not murder," and some versions of the Bible say this.
There is a difference between killing and murdering. i.e. 1) Fighting a fascist totalitarian dictatorship 2) Defending your family with no other options 3) Death penalty by an honest jury are examples of killing, not murdering.
Now which governments are dictatorships, which scenarios are life-threatening to your family, and if the death penalty can really be a deterrant vs crime along with honest juries---I don't know...
____________________________
The specific word used in different versions of the bible isn't really relevant, because I doubt it's going to mean the exact same thing as the original word used in the original writings. Doesn't really matter anyway, really.
You're not defending that woman though, are you? She's a raving lunatic.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:11:42 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:01:42 (#)
Ranking: 2
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Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-08-30 12:53:47 (#)
Ranking: 0
religion is a dangerous virus that should be destroyed.
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This is the American liberal philosophy but with a disclaimer....
"Religion Is A Dangerous Virus That Should Be Destroyed*"
* Only when applied to Christianity
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It is funny because it is true.
Submitted by Acarnis (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:06:29 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
The verb for kill in the verse of "Thou shalt not kill" had the connotation for murder. It really says "Thou shalt not murder," and some versions of the Bible say this.
There is a difference between killing and murdering. i.e. 1) Fighting a fascist totalitarian dictatorship 2) Defending your family with no other options 3) Death penalty by an honest jury are examples of killing, not murdering.
Now which governments are dictatorships, which scenarios are life-threatening to your family, and if the death penalty can really be a deterrant vs crime along with honest juries---I don't know...
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-08-30 13:01:42 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
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Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-08-30 12:53:47 (#)
Ranking: 0
religion is a dangerous virus that should be destroyed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the American liberal philosophy but with a disclaimer....
"Religion Is A Dangerous Virus That Should Be Destroyed*"
* Only when applied to Christianity
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-08-30 12:53:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
religion is a dangerous virus that should be destroyed.
Submitted by forthewin (user info) at 2006-08-30 12:49:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Excuse me... Accepted, not excepted.
Submitted by forthewin (user info) at 2006-08-30 12:46:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:45:59 (#)
Ranking: 0
See, that's what I'm talking about. "Don't take this lterally, but I'm damn sure God hates gays! IT'S IN THE BIBLE!!"
What exactly am I supposed to take as the word of god and what isn't?
I want to know.
_______________________________
My ex-girlfriend's mother told me that "God" supports and uses war under certain circumstances. I asked her how that weaves into the commandment that says "THOU SHALT NOT KILL". I don't remember what she said, but it was bullshit.
She also knew for a fact I was going to hell. You could tell be the way she talked to me that she felt sorry for me. She also thought that I was a satanic influence on her 20 year old daughter, and forbid her to see me at one point. (does anyone see something wrong with that last statement?)
Another fun thing is when she would talk to me about the apocalypse... Always making sure to tell me how people that hadn't excepted Jesus and Christianity into their heart were going to be banished to hell for eternity.
Oh, how I miss talking to that woman.
Submitted by The_Mighty_Badger (user info) at 2006-08-30 12:23:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by The_Mighty_Badger (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:52:50 (#)
Ranking: 0
goferforhire, you can know how to write and at the same time not have any inspiration or anything interesting to write about, thus not being able to write but being able to critique.
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You're full of shit.
Submitted by UnderOathMeal (user info) at 2006-08-30 12:11:36 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 12:00:14 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:45:59 (#)
Ranking: 0
What exactly am I supposed to take as the word of god and what isn't?
I want to know.
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That is up to you.
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Wow.
I would like to bring further attention the simple and beautiful point made here by Indo. VERY good.
Submitted by ubetidid (user info) at 2006-08-30 12:11:10 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Namaste.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 12:00:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:45:59 (#)
Ranking: 0
What exactly am I supposed to take as the word of god and what isn't?
I want to know.
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That is up to you.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:52:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:47:22 (#)
Ranking: 0
Christians argue ALL THE DAMN TIME that what is in the bible is the word of god.
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What christians argue that? Find me a religious text that says so? Find me a religious leader that says the whole bible is to be take literally.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:50:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:19:25 (#)
Ranking: 1
The only current "religion" that makes any sense is Buddhism. No diety, no devil. No heaven, no hell. The worship nothing, fear nothing. If they live good, good happens. Bad, bad happens.
Chritianity, Islam, and most "major" religions only spout rhetoric of violent natured. Damnation, hellfire, brimstone. Follow us or die. We don't care if you convert, we'll just kill you if you don't. Yes, I put Christians in with this lot because they are clearly trying to rule the world, though not as straight foward as others.
Religion is for the weaker willed of us, those that fear death. Those that can't comprehend the way the world is and instead need to view it through rose colored glasses.
Yes, I loathe religion. I will never say to not have faith. That's your business. Don't try to convert me. Don't tell me I'm wrong. We would all get along much better if people minded their own damned business.
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You have an innaccurate and incredably shallow understanding of buddhism.
If you are going to put christianity and Islam in the same boat I am going to have to assume you have never read the koran.
Religion is a school of thought no different than Taoism. Everyone has a set of beliefs that change the way they view the world. Some believe in a magical guy in a cloud, some believe in a flying spaghetti monster and some believe that we are just a random collections of particles.
What I see as weak willed is people who think they are special because they believe in the only correct one. Who think they are better because of some belief they hold instead of the actions they do. People who say mind your own business all while they are not miding theirs.
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:47:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Christians argue ALL THE DAMN TIME that what is in the bible is the word of god.
Is god sometimes wrong? if so, that makes you diety seem...human?
take what is literal and what isn't and give me the lists.
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:45:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
See, that's what I'm talking about. "Don't take this lterally, but I'm damn sure God hates gays! IT'S IN THE BIBLE!!"
What exactly am I supposed to take as the word of god and what isn't?
I want to know.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:37:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:26:38 (#)
Ranking: 0
In my post ( http://www.ubersite.com/m/92397 ), all I did was point out problems in the bible from the beginning, and believe me I'll post more.
I nev er said it was bad, I just said it didn't make sense. I wonder how people could believe this. If I tell you elephants fly, when you have proof they don't - then you're an idiot for believing me, right?
Well...
*points to bible*
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Where in the bible does it say everything in it is to be taken literally? What christian groups have said that it must be taken literally?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:34:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:06:54 (#)
Ranking: 0
didn't I see a picture of you holding a rocket launcher?
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A GAU-21 50-cal machine gun. There are other jobs in the US besides the military where you use hardware like that.
Submitted by I_love_Kracka (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:27:39 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Jesus loves me this I know - for the bible tell me so....
ALL of us on Uber are going to hell - see ya there.
Submitted by forthewin (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:27:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:01:50 (#)
Ranking: 0
haha, thanks forthewin, I figured someone would notice that. In fact, I was worried that they would notice nothing else.
_______________
That's funny, cause I was thinking the same thing as you.
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:26:38 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
In my post ( http://www.ubersite.com/m/92397 ), all I did was point out problems in the bible from the beginning, and believe me I'll post more.
I nev er said it was bad, I just said it didn't make sense. I wonder how people could believe this. If I tell you elephants fly, when you have proof they don't - then you're an idiot for believing me, right?
Well...
*points to bible*
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:24:42 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Foolproof, no is is saying that *ONLY* religion instills discipline, but what IS being said is that religion is GOOD FOR instilling discipline.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:21:09 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
discipline isn't about good behavior.
I have to go to the hospital
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:19:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
You can't say that only religion instills discipline. My parents raised me to be a rational, law abiding humna. Never been arrested. Never broke laws. My background is 100% clean (that's how I have the security clearance I do.) Now, I was raised secular. No religion in my house. Also, I am in the Army. More structure and discipline than most ever see. No religion there.
What structured religion is is a way to raise an army. An army of followers to YOUR side. After all, YOUR God is the true God. Everybody else are heretics and infidels.
The only current "religion" that makes any sense is Buddhism. No diety, no devil. No heaven, no hell. The worship nothing, fear nothing. If they live good, good happens. Bad, bad happens.
Chritianity, Islam, and most "major" religions only spout rhetoric of violent natured. Damnation, hellfire, brimstone. Follow us or die. We don't care if you convert, we'll just kill you if you don't. Yes, I put Christians in with this lot because they are clearly trying to rule the world, though not as straight foward as others.
Religion is for the weaker willed of us, those that fear death. Those that can't comprehend the way the world is and instead need to view it through rose colored glasses.
Yes, I loathe religion. I will never say to not have faith. That's your business. Don't try to convert me. Don't tell me I'm wrong. We would all get along much better if people minded their own damned business.
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:17:40 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:58:24 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:35:46 (#)
Ranking: 2
Idoninja is on a propaganda payroll...
Don't pay attention to him.
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Kaos, you missed one.
http://www.ubersite.com/m/92397#2121082
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Whoops! Sorry Indo, it's been taken care of...
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:15:11 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
and I'd be a hypocrite if I said absolutism is absolutely wrong, wouldn't I?
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:06:54 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
didn't I see a picture of you holding a rocket launcher?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:04:01 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:56:21 (#)
Ranking: 0
Of course it's not, that's exactly what I've been saying.
Believing in anything as an absolute is foolish. If you completely buy into Republicanism, Liberalism, Terrorism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, you're setting yourself up for a mistake.
I don't believe you really payed any attention to this, or you would understand what I'm saying isn't "religion good" or "religion bad" but "religion what you make of it."
Discipline. As a military person you should understand that part.
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Why does everyon think I am a military person?
I think you can believe in absolutes and be ok, it is all in your interpretation. I really don't care about peoples beliefs, but their actions.
If that is waht you were saying, my bad. It seemed like at the begining you popinted out a problem with religion, then went on to talk about a benefit. Personaly I don't think religion has to take, or need discipline to be a positive force (or a neg one). But I do agree it is what upi make of it.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:03:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Agreed, Coyote- doctrine, dogma, and denomination are the failures of religion.
It's discipline that is worth something.
^
|
I've said this like 100 times already, haven't I.
Submitted by Coyote (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:01:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Wait, a rational and reasonable discussion of religion? Here, of all places? Didn't think it could be done.
It's nice to have the idea that everyone can have their own religion and live and let live, but so many sects/religious leaders/religious organizations are focused on conversion or imposing their ideas on other people, or even the outright creation of theocracy, that I doubt this can ever happen.
Humans are hardwired for spirituality, and there's something undeniably comforting about the belief that there's a pattern to the universe and you're part of it. What I find absolutely unacceptable is the use of specific doctrines by ambitious groups and people to divide, exclude, and control. I think history shows far more examples of the harm of the latter kind of thing than of the benefit of the former.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 11:01:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
haha, thanks forthewin, I figured someone would notice that. In fact, I was worried that they would notice nothing else.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:58:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:35:46 (#)
Ranking: 2
Idoninja is on a propaganda payroll...
Don't pay attention to him.
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Kaos, you missed one.
http://www.ubersite.com/m/92397#2121082
Submitted by forthewin (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:58:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Her back is kind of weird looking.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:56:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Of course it's not, that's exactly what I've been saying.
Believing in anything as an absolute is foolish. If you completely buy into Republicanism, Liberalism, Terrorism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, you're setting yourself up for a mistake.
I don't believe you really payed any attention to this, or you would understand what I'm saying isn't "religion good" or "religion bad" but "religion what you make of it."
Discipline. As a military person you should understand that part.
Submitted by jojo747 (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:55:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
A post about religion that has been thought out and makes a little sense? There is a God.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:51:55 EDT (#)
Ranking: -1
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:16:31 (#)
Ranking: 0
way to just focus on the intro, inion. Seriously.
But to go along with what you just said, yes- I think completely buying into any school of thought- political, philosophical, religious or even literary/artistic is utter bullshit. No one besides the people who come up with it believe it in it's entirety, because everyone is different. It's about mixing and matching and making your own philosophy.
Most of these philosophical/political/religious affiliations are just matters of convenience
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I read the rest and it was what prevented you from getting a -2.
What you said in the intro was pretty clear and very ignorant. Having religious beliefs is no different than having any other type of belief.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:45:47 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
and thanks for the reminder, Kaos
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:45:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I won't make most heated, UOM. It's just not what I do.
And Jay, Dogma is an amazing movie in a lot of ways.
Religion isn't bad, people are- the excuse varies but the tendency remains.
Submitted by UnderOathMeal (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:42:51 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Damn. 30 reviews in little more than an hour. I smell most heated.
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:39:42 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Taken without those, gofer. :-)
And JMG has a good point, too. I don't know if this is EXACTLY what he meant, but I don't think religions are BAD, persey, just the way people interpret them.
I hate to bring in a movie quote, but the best line is from Dogma.
"It's not what you have faith in, as long as you HAVE faith."
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:35:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Idoninja is on a propaganda payroll...
Don't pay attention to him.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:33:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
and Exactly, JMG
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:33:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I agree Badass- in fact, that's part of what I was trying to say with the 'what I don't like' section.
What I do like is the discipline. I think it's more important to believe in yourself than in a God, and I think many religious practices, done in the right way, help you to do that. Discipline is key- meditation is like weightlifting for the mind and as much as it exists, the spirit.
Submitted by JMG114 (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:30:18 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I think that religion and spirituality should be fundamentally personal experiences and opportunities for growth and learning. I think that if taken as metaphor, any religion can show its adherents the way.
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:28:17 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
in rehab we refered to GOD as Good Orderly Direction.
I still subscribe to that, I think religion is bullshit...rules on how I should live...BAH!
I don't believe in a God but I do believe that you should believe in something...morals, people, yourself...whatever.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:27:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Exactly my point, Stabby-
Andd Jgreening? More power to you.
Belief in a creator is very healthy, so long as it's approached with discipline, tolerance, and an open mind.
And that was sincere, not condescending.
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:27:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:23:01 (#)
Ranking: 0
My point exactly, Inion (got it right this time)
The Religious Industry focuses precisely on making people feel ashamed. That's how it keeps in business.
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true to a point. that's really only completely true when you're young and your values are still determined by the laws around you instead of your own sense of what's right and wrong. i feel bad for bad things i do, and sometimes for other things that make no sense to feel bad for. i try and separate the two so i don't get an overwhelming sense of catholic guilt but it's still there. this is my fault because i make up my own guidance system in life. if someone is truly ashamed of what they do then it is because they're own sense of morality tells them so. if they're just acting like it or feeling bad for not feeling bad, then that's an immature approach to life and it's still not religion it's themselves.
people "should" themselves to death.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:27:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
By the way, Jgreening...buddhists don't believe Buddha is God. Hell...Buddhism isn't a real "Religion" in the sense of the word of believing in the existance of a God at all...because they don't believe this.
Buddhism is more of a philosophy than religion and if people were to encorporate its ideas into their own lives, the world would be a better place.
Submitted by UnderOathMeal (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:27:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Nietzsche once said:
"Religion is the opiate of the masses."
This rings true today if EVER it did. What do we do when we're in severe pain? We take painKILLERS. What do we do when the pain is so severe we can't stand being alive? We go to the hospital (church) and take in a few fat CC's of morphine (prayer).
I am not claiming to know what's what of religion. I don't think anyone does. But if the message here is that if you're going to be an atheist, do so with an open mind, then hurray. We agree.
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:27:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
And I'm not saying you have to accept the source of that statement...but I think it is an inherent truth of ALL humans, regardless of faith or religious preference.
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:25:44 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is the evil living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is the evil living in me that does it.
Chew on that for a while...
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:23:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
This is done pretty well, and it's not an attempt to start a hateing flame war, so +2.
But I do say, you can believe in God, and not be religious.
I believe in God.
Not Jesus as the only son of God.
Not Mohammed as the prophet.
Not Bhudda or Ginesha as God or anything like that.
I believe that there is a "Creator" of some sort, and the known universe to us is a microscopic "something" to him.
Maybe he's a scientist in a lab, maybe he's a mystical uber-being, I dunno.
But I don't pray to him, I don't worship him, I simply acknowldge him.
I used to sit on both sides of the fence at different points in my life, and after a lot of thought and reading, this is the solution I believe bets fits the world I see and know. Doesn't fit for everyone, I know that, and that's cool.
To each their own.
Submitted by Stabkill (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:23:29 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
It is a proven fact through scientific study that the minds of religious people tend to be healthier than those who are godless folks. I'd point at the spirituality part of things as filling a void in the mind that expands our mental abilities rather than religion itself.
Spirituality is a wonderful thing, religion is generally not...especially when you have idiots willing to kill over it... Shit, kill? Pushing their bullshit beliefs on others is bad enough.
I fault nobody for believing a God, but when their "God" wants me dead or punished...well, those people can go fuck themselves...and it doesn't matter the religion it is.
So as mindless as some ultra-conservative nutty christians are that believe that people walked the earth with dinosaurs...they have their place.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:23:01 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
My point exactly, Inion (got it right this time)
The Religious Industry focuses precisely on making people feel ashamed. That's how it keeps in business.
The value, I submit, is in the discipline. Your defenses of things like communion and possibly even confession make me think you agree at least a little.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:21:19 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Badass- I'm not condoning dogma, belief, or even an actual religion of any kind- I'm just saying that they have disciplinary value and should not be condemned as a whole just for the actions of a few.
That'd be like saying that the Music industry is evil because of people who kill others or themselves 'because of messages contained in the lyrics'
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:20:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
"What I don't like about religion is that it makes decisions for you."
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that's just an excuse people make up when they don't want to take responsibility for their own actions. there is nothing in this world you have to do except die. all instincts and reactions can be suppressed. to say that someone or something else made a decision for you is really just saying YOU let them make YOUR choice and then YOU went along with it.
only someone ashamed of their actions will say the reasoning is religious law.
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:18:37 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
sorry, Indo not inion
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:18:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Oathmeal- "people like Foolproof." I'd be a hypocrite if I made a foolproof hate post, which this isn't. This is an effort to open people's minds- people who just blanket condemn religion suffer the consequences as much as people who accept it- that's all that was about.
I'm sorry that you focused so much on something that had very little to do with the post as a whole
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:16:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
way to just focus on the intro, inion. Seriously.
But to go along with what you just said, yes- I think completely buying into any school of thought- political, philosophical, religious or even literary/artistic is utter bullshit. No one besides the people who come up with it believe it in it's entirety, because everyone is different. It's about mixing and matching and making your own philosophy.
Most of these philosophical/political/religious affiliations are just matters of convenience
Submitted by UnderOathMeal (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:13:08 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
Ok so this started out being an apparently honest attempt to support religious tolerance however it morphed into a Foolproof hate post.
I get that you don't align yourself with FP's world view, but disguising a post to be a true take on religion when it's really just a rebuttal doesn't work for me.
So, +1.
Submitted by badassmofo (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:11:57 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.ubersite.com/m/76970
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:11:16 EDT (#)
Ranking: -1
"What I don't like about religion is that it makes decisions for you. It tells you what to believe and holds you to it. It takes spirituality out of the hands of the individual and into the hands of a collective, which ultimately drywalls spiritual growth. I also don't like how people care so much about it that they kill in it's name, but that's more of a human nature issue I have than an issue with religion. But enough of that and on to the actual point of the post: the value of religion."
This is like saying any philosophy or school of thought makes your decisions for you. Or saying your upbringing makes your decisions for your, or your lack of religion makes your decisions for you.
We all make our decisions based on how we were raised, our goals and personal beliefs (moral, religious, political, etc).
Submitted by goferforhire (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:08:50 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Have fun believing that, Badger.
Meanwhile, I'll thank the God I don't believe in that there was a Renaissance. Or that we have music at all. Or, on an unrelated note, for charity organizations.
Submitted by The_Mighty_Badger (user info) at 2006-08-30 10:00:00 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
*world
Submitted by LSD420 (user info) at 2006-08-30 09:59:52 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
This post is like "a quick look at the inner machinations of the american military, written by a civilian." Being unqualified doesn't magically turn a bad idea interesting...
+1 for effort.
Possible +2 later if it's brilliant.
Submitted by The_Mighty_Badger (user info) at 2006-08-30 09:59:26 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
The worl would be a better place without them.
Submitted by Orgasmatron (user info) at 2006-08-30 09:59:23 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Good luck getting a discussion out of this crew.
My money's on an argument breaking out.
Submitted by UnderOathMeal (user info) at 2006-08-30 09:58:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Auto +2 religious debate.
Now let me read this.