Religion versus Predestination - a musing (586 hits)
Category: NoneRating: 0.9 on 43 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by CaptainThorns (View user info) at 2006-10-25 13:14:56 EDT
Do you believe that God exists, or is he just a concept to you - a mathematical abstraction?
I'm not sure that I personally see the difference, but I do believe in God. We are living in a definite design. A design requires a designer. I see that like I see numbers - plain and simple. What I don't see is how man's attempts to know God through religion make any sense. The very existence of God contradicts the idea that we have free will or choice.
Speaking in the vernacular, a hypothetical syllogism:
(A) If an all-knowing God exists, then he knows precisly what THE future is. (He knows I'm going to cough in ten seconds.)
(B) If God knows what THE future is, then that future WILL occur, unless God is mistaken. (I WILL cough in ten seconds.)
(C) Because God cannot be mistaken, there is NO possibility that any other future, other than the one future which God knows, will happen. (There's NO possibility I won't cough in ten seconds.)
(D) Therefore, if God exists, there is only ONE future, which is THE future he knows. (I cough in ten seconds.)
If God exists, the probability of there being more than one possible future is zero. To believe God exists also requires you to believe that the future is unalterable. By definition.
THEREFORE, there is only one future, and no amount of willing or choosing or praying or churchgoing can change it. As such, religion has no purpose.
Or does knowledge of fact not necessarily prove singularity of future?
Discuss.
User Reviews
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-10-26 08:28:58 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Crystle (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:22:49 (#)
Ranking: 2
Now factor in this: God is Omnicient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent, but by His decree, Free Will exists.
It's like watching popcorn.
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god has a mental disorder
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2006-10-26 08:28:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Glad to see I've stimulated some good discussion below.
Submitted by Cadrach (user info) at 2006-10-26 08:15:28 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2006-10-25 21:35:31 (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't believe in god.
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Submitted by UnderOathMeal (user info) at 2006-10-25 14:43:56 (#)
Ranking: 2
*masturbates furiously*
CT, thanks for posting this. It's been far too long since someone has posted something this thought-provoking (in my estimation).
Here's another argument for the existence of god that holds weight:
(A) God is, by definition, the most perfect and powerful being imaginable.
(B) To exist is a trait of anything that is perfect (what is perfect must exist)
----
Therefor, God exists, because a God that doesn't exist is not as perfect as a God that does.
Don't like this argument? Take it up with Aristotle.
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This argument is flawed. Defining something does not mean it exists.
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"Defining something does not mean it exists." Plato might disagree with you on that. By defining something, you know that at the very least the IDEA of the thing exists, which in a weird way fits into his ideas about the forms of things (yadda, yadda, yadda, I'm twenty years old and minoring in philosophy, blah, blah, blah) and the assorted levels on which they exist.
And I am likewise unfamiliar with the [faulty or at least wildly edited and/or out of context] Aristotelian argument noted above.
Submitted by hour_man (user info) at 2006-10-26 05:04:51 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
It all comes down to descartes.
Benevolance, Omnipotence and Omniscience. If God is all loving, then he would let us make our own way. Either way there wasn't really much here to be honest mate.
Worth reading.
Submitted by laika (user info) at 2006-10-26 01:54:48 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
A design requires a designer- False. Either the universe or God simply exists without design.
But even if the universe is "designed", it appears to be entirely indifferent to the welfare and fate of humans.
You assume correctly. Free will and an omniscient God is a logical contradiction.
"If the assumption that God is infallible is questioned, then there's no problem. Or that God does not know the future."-
Fine. But then the problem becomes that mainstream religion has completely abandoned the truth and refuses to logically question this assumption.
"God is so beyond our ability to conceptualize him that it is impossible to rationally deduce his will, knowledge, or understanding in human terms. Therefore, every argument surrounding God is inherently faulty--including this one."
This is correct. Now go inform all of the religions that they are false and should be disbanded.
"God can make you do things, he could decide your fate, he could know your fate but he doesn't, he gives free will. You have to assume by giving us free will he allows himself not to know."
So you are saying that God is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. This certainly isnt what most religious people tend to believe.
"(A) God is, by definition, the most perfect and powerful being imaginable.
(B) To exist is a trait of anything that is perfect (what is perfect must exist)
---
Therefore, God exists, because a God that doesn't exist is not as perfect as a God that does."
Complete nonsense. You are assuming that God exists in the proof. The correct form of the argument is below.
If God exists, God would be perfect.
If something is perfect it must exist.
Therefore, If God exists, then God exists. Wow. What an impressive proof!
Everyone who thinks about it should know that most religions are nonsense. The interesting question is whether society is better off having the elite deliberately lying to the commoners, or actually trying to tell them the truth. Historically, lying has overwhelmingly won out.
Submitted by Allyson (user info) at 2006-10-25 22:38:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
plus two for the religious debate...
and i wish i had the anwsers for you... lemme go talk to someone.
Submitted by bob (user info) at 2006-10-25 22:24:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Where the fuck did Artistotle say that? Ive already read the Constitution of Athens and The Politics and nowhere does he make that arugment.
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2006-10-25 21:37:45 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Orgasmatron (user info) at 2006-10-25 17:39:24 (#)
Ranking: 2
God must have known that I'd +2 this, then.
I haven't read the reviews below, but I'm going to assume that someone below has mentioned this - that the concepts of God and religion are very different things, and applying human constructs to a higher power makes it difficult to properly discuss a fusion (fusion fusion) of the two.
Me? I think God would be a lot happier if everyone stopped getting tied up in the differences between them and just concerned themselves with living good lives and loving each other.
But what do I know. I'm one of an uncountable sum of things working themselves across the mind of the Almighty.
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Well, we finally proved you're not my alter.
Submitted by Stagger_Lee (user info) at 2006-10-25 21:35:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't believe in god.
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Submitted by UnderOathMeal (user info) at 2006-10-25 14:43:56 (#)
Ranking: 2
*masturbates furiously*
CT, thanks for posting this. It's been far too long since someone has posted something this thought-provoking (in my estimation).
Here's another argument for the existence of god that holds weight:
(A) God is, by definition, the most perfect and powerful being imaginable.
(B) To exist is a trait of anything that is perfect (what is perfect must exist)
----
Therefor, God exists, because a God that doesn't exist is not as perfect as a God that does.
Don't like this argument? Take it up with Aristotle.
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This argument is flawed. Defining something does not mean it exists.
Submitted by IntangibleHands (user info) at 2006-10-25 20:43:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
There is no god in space
Our creator has no face
Submitted by Hookhand (user info) at 2006-10-25 20:36:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
We are NOT living in a definite design, you asshole.
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2006-10-25 19:52:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
To ascribe (g)od with any human characteristics is ultimately invalid.
Submitted by phauna (user info) at 2006-10-25 17:59:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: -2
There is no god.
Submitted by Orgasmatron (user info) at 2006-10-25 17:39:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
God must have known that I'd +2 this, then.
I haven't read the reviews below, but I'm going to assume that someone below has mentioned this - that the concepts of God and religion are very different things, and applying human constructs to a higher power makes it difficult to properly discuss a fusion (fusion fusion) of the two.
Me? I think God would be a lot happier if everyone stopped getting tied up in the differences between them and just concerned themselves with living good lives and loving each other.
But what do I know. I'm one of an uncountable sum of things working themselves across the mind of the Almighty.
Submitted by bob (user info) at 2006-10-25 16:57:12 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
and I couldn't have phrased my beliefs better than with that what rob said.
Submitted by bob (user info) at 2006-10-25 16:54:07 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
read St. Augustine's The City of God Against the Pagans in which he outlines the necessity for there to be predestinationism if their is a God in a very similar way.
as for this...
We are living in a definite design. A design requires a designer.
____________________
I call that designer the gene, and I say that this design is not definite but constantly changing.
Submitted by HotWillie (user info) at 2006-10-25 16:50:39 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Is CaptainThorns derived from the crown of thorns placed on Jesus' head before the crucifixtion?
Just curious.
Submitted by FALLEN (user info) at 2006-10-25 16:43:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
All you had to do was ask.
To say "God is too big to understand" is a cop out. Unfortunatly the statement holds some truth. In a nut shell, things are because they are, things happen because they must. The mechanics of "why" are actualy irrelavant. It is the "what is happening", not "why it's happening".
Trying to figure out the meaning of life is a fun and though provoking distraction, that's all.
Life is designed to be lived, not understood.
As for free will, those of you that have it are truly blessed.
Some of us do not have that luxury.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2006-10-25 16:29:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
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Do I believe that God exists?
Yes and no.
Belief in God is obviously not required - so I think any attempts to prove or disprove something that is 'optional' is sheer folly.
Every human being will arrive at a different comprehension of what 'God' is / might be.
That said, I believe we created the concept of God because we could.
Out of fear, out of curiosity, boredom, enlightenment...
This consciousness we all experience is delightful to be sure, but it certainly comes with an astounding amount of questions and late night ponderings about why / how the fuck we can even comprehend things like "existence" and attempt to puzzle out things like "infinity" and "death".
When I search what has been conveniently been labeled as my "soul" - I feel reasonably sure there is a larger purpose to all of this bullshit... but I certainly do not embrace either the personified controlling malevolent God the Old Testament nor the benevolent omniscience of the New Testament God.
I like to think God is all of us. Our conscience. Our capacity for enjoying happiness and joy as a result of being fundamentally "good".
God is a smile, a heartfelt embrace.
A giggle, an orgasm.
...or a delightfully satisfying fart.
To be truly happy is to know God. To bring joy to the lives of other people, to forgive, to love.
All God. Yeah... God is "good".
Now Religion? That is an entirely different discussion.
I think the personification of our whole God concept has helped sell a shit load of books and secure power for those special individuals who are entirely full of... faith.
Personally, I fucking hate organized religion. There is FAR too much control, people wearing stupid costumes, and individuals repressing their own humanity for my taste.
The ONLY credit I will give those capitalistic fucks is the 'community' they manage to attract. Decent, honest, conscientious people make up the majority of any congregation and those people are fundamentally good...
...even if they are occasionally fundamentally retarded.
Well... that and any exposure to the wonderful teachings of Jesus Christ is also a good thing. Other than that - fuck 'em.
Fine post Capt'n.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-25 16:24:46 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
meant to +2 for that game.
Submitted by Lisa (user info) at 2006-10-25 16:24:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
God is an idea created by humans, it's an easy answer to difficult questions. We like to try to find reasons for things we can't understand, especially when they're horrible. Believing in God is a coping mechanism for suffering people who need faith in something to keep them from giving up on life. People also use God to explain occurrences in nature that are too large to comprehend. "God made the universe." They think this way because they are afraid of the possibility of a world left to its own devices. There must be someone out there with a plan for us, right? Otherwise we are helplessly alone, just cogs in the unmanned machine that is nature, with no more purpose than rocks on the ground, and that's frightening. If we're not in control, something similar to us, only bigger and better, must be.
We are self-important, and the opportunity for eternal life is another reason why people believe in God. I think we just can't wrap our minds around dying, and having a beginning and an end like everything else that lives. This tenacity and lust for life is probably an innate thing that allowed humans to rise to the top of the food chain and become the most dominant species.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-25 16:24:24 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2006-10-25 15:24:49 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by simple_catalyst (user info) at 2006-10-25 15:11:13 (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.htm
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Wow...that's pretty damn cool.
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Enjoyable exercise, but plays a lot of games with semantics.
Submitted by ubetidid (user info) at 2006-10-25 16:16:33 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
God is inside me.
right there.
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2006-10-25 15:24:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by simple_catalyst (user info) at 2006-10-25 15:11:13 (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.htm
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Wow...that's pretty damn cool.
Submitted by drgoatcabin (user info) at 2006-10-25 15:13:35 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
We all have the same, one future. Death. How we get there, now there's the real question.
High five for a real thought provoking post.
Submitted by simple_catalyst (user info) at 2006-10-25 15:11:13 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.htm
Submitted by UnderOathMeal (user info) at 2006-10-25 14:46:27 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Oh yea, almost forgot:
~OathMeal Approved Post~
Submitted by UnderOathMeal (user info) at 2006-10-25 14:43:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
*masturbates furiously*
CT, thanks for posting this. It's been far too long since someone has posted something this thought-provoking (in my estimation).
Here's another argument for the existence of god that holds weight:
(A) God is, by definition, the most perfect and powerful being imaginable.
(B) To exist is a trait of anything that is perfect (what is perfect must exist)
----
Therefor, God exists, because a God that doesn't exist is not as perfect as a God that does.
Don't like this argument? Take it up with Aristotle.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-25 14:34:32 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
You are missing a major part of christian religion (can't speak for jewish or Muslim here).
Free will.
God can make you do things, he could decide your fate, he could know your fate but he doesn't, he gives free will. You have to assume by giving us free will he allows himself not to know.
Submitted by Foolproof (user info) at 2006-10-25 14:14:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
If God is all (fill in tribute), and it has a purpose for us all - it's one giant asshole.
It intended that child to be raped.
It intended that person murdered.
It intended war and famine and hate and murder and rape and...
What a prick God is.
Submitted by lechuza (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:52:30 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
this gave me a headache
Submitted by inion_de_trua (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:50:21 EDT (#)
Ranking: 1
i don't come to uber to think so keep your intelligence out of MY entertainment.
thank you.
Submitted by sicosemen (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:44:43 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Would have been a positive if you didn't say discuss. Read "The Seven Mysteries of Life" by Guy Murchie.
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:34:56 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Cadrach (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:23:31 (#)
Ranking: 0
I agree with the Axhole below. Where does the idea that the god (or gods) out there are all knowing or infallible come from? I'm not aware of anything that says it HAS to be that way. Most polytheistic religions would even disagree with the notion.
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The idea is, as you have probably already guessed, taken verbatim from the Christian Bible. That's the angle from which I was examining things, and is the angle that most monotheistic religions assume.
Submitted by pen_name (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:33:04 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
How about this: God is so beyond our ability to conceptualize him that it is impossible to rationally deduce his will, knowledge, or understanding in human terms. Therefore, every argument surrounding God is inherently faulty--including this one.
Submitted by Razor (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:31:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
(A) If an all-knowing God exists, then he knows precisly what THE future is. (He knows I'm going to cough in ten seconds.)
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Why must God be all knowing?
By your line of reasoning, this God character is as trapped as anyone else in this web of predestiny.
Submitted by TigerLilly (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:25:25 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Deep
Submitted by Cadrach (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:23:31 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
I agree with the Axhole below. Where does the idea that the god (or gods) out there are all knowing or infallible come from? I'm not aware of anything that says it HAS to be that way. Most polytheistic religions would even disagree with the notion.
Submitted by St_Jimmy (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:23:22 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Why must there only be 1 future? Heisenberg's uncertainty allows for multiple dimensions and, consequently, multiple futures.
Submitted by Istaros (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:23:14 EDT (#)
Ranking: 0
there's only one future regardless of the possibility of god's existence
Submitted by Crystle (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:22:49 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Now factor in this: God is Omnicient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent, but by His decree, Free Will exists.
It's like watching popcorn.
Submitted by BLITZKREIG_BOB (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:20:59 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
Look up Pascal's Gambit.
Submitted by Axolotl (user info) at 2006-10-25 13:18:15 EDT (#)
Ranking: 2
If the assumption that God is infallible is questioned, then there's no problem. Or that God does not know the future.