Politics and Family: This is turning into another Vietnam (1355 hits)
Category: PoliticsRating: 0.1 on 131 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by Jay Peg (View user info) at 2006-10-30 19:55:54 EST
Sorry for the ETS style title, but at least in my family, it's becoming true.
The players in the story are my father and me.
He is a devout conservative Anglican, hard line Republican.
I am a agnostic deist, Democratic leaning independent.
Every once in a while during our conversations, something will spark a debate. Today, it happened to be a comment from Ann Coulter concerning water-board torture.
She said something to the effect of believing that waterboarding was NOT torture, because it wasn't physically abusive, only mentally.
I just mentioned it in passing, and my Dad said "Well, she's got a point."
I stood dumbfounded for a second, and then repeated what she said, sure that he had misheard me. And then he dropped a bombshell on me.
"Why can't we torture them? They're not Americans."
I was in shock. I am still shocked at this. I knew my father tended to be closeminded concerning the "War on Terror" and political divisivness, but good God on high.
So began the argument.
I asked him what he meant by that, and asked if he viewed them as humans.
He said that yes, he viewed them as humans, but that he also viewed Americans as better than them, and therefore afforded MORE rights, because we WERE.
So I asked if he meant that since we are Americans, we can be afforded the basic human rights, but since someone is NOT an American, they are not afforded BASIC human rights.
He said that all humans should have basic human rights.
So I asked if the right to not be tortured was a basic human right.
He said it was.
So I asked how he could say that yes, those who are in Gitmo are humans, and that yes, all humans are afforded the basic human rights no matter where they were born, yet he was still OK with tortuing them.
"Because they want to kill us."
That was his reply.
Again, I'm shocked.
So we argued for a good 10 minutes about how he thinks all Muslims want all non-Muslims dead, and how he thinks the Koran calls for the death of all non-Muslims, and how in Mosques across the world, "Death to America" was being taught.
He called me "Un-American" because I "Only listen to those people who think America is worthless, and might as well move out of this country."
He told me that the information I read, the people I listen to, the news I digest was all designed to weaken America.
I was a again speachless.
Utterly speachless.
So I asked who he thought I was listening to, who he thought I got my information from, and he said very bluntly, "pussy terrorist-loving Democrats and foreiners who have been jealous of America since World War 2."
Funny, though. When he was younger, late 60's, early 70's, he was the peace advocate. He was against Vietnam. His father argued with him the same way he argues with me now.
I love my father, and I do hope that when I die, I can say that I lived a life that would make my father proud, but I hope to the core of my being I don't turn out like him. Blinded.
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And now some ranting and raving...
I don't get it. I really don't. I'll be blunt and honest with this, and I apologize to the Canucks and the Aussies and Kiwi's and Brits and anyone else who's not American reading this, but I believe that the United States of America has been, for the better part of 140 years, THE shining light, the beacon, the guidepost.
Flat out, since Reconstruction in the 1870's, the United States has been the "best" country in the world, and the best country FOR the world. We've been a symbol that other nations have looked upon and said "We want THAT".
No other country in the world can boast 250 years of being a continuous Democratic Republic. No other country can say that they've gone through a civil war and come out with the same form of government intact, and in fact BETTER because of it.
We are the Modern Rome.
We are the Modern Greece.
We are a government of, by and for people.
We are the country that prides itself on leading the revolution of human rights.
Slavery gone. Segregation gone.
Founding signator of the Geneva Convention.
Creator of the Monroe Doctrine.
The Truman Doctrine.
NATO.
Founding member of the United Nations.
We are the country that can look at any... ANY other country and say "Anything you can do, I can do better."
Strike that.
We WERE that nation.
We WERE this eon's beacon.
We haven't been that moral compass since 2001.
This nation is now a bully.
We are no longer an example to be followed.
We are no longer a nation to be lauded.
We are a divided nation.
We are now retracing the path that our nation followed 150-170 years ago.
The Civil War wasn't just a flash in the pan that had a history of 2 years. It took 20+ years to come to a flashpoint.
And now, students of history can pick up a book like "The Impending Crisis", read it, and draw hundreds if not thousands of parallels between then and now.
And there were visionaries in the government in the 1850's who saw what was happening, and tried as they could to stop the schism. There were men who believed that the Union mattered, and that people could disagree and still be American about it.
There are visionaries now in the government who see what's coming, and are trying as they might to stop it again. They believe that the divided government, both Republicans AND Democrats, needs to get their shit together, wven though they disagree about almost everything.
We need people to see that they are Americans BEFORE they're Republicans or Democrats.
But if that doesn't happen, if America acts as it did 160 years ago, I can tell you this, the same result will come about. The nation will divide. The nation will fracture and fight with itself.
Anyway, to be blunt, I'm sad for the country I call home.
I can see it's future, and it doesn't scare me or anything, it makes me sad.
It makes me sad because the country is being fucked over by people who can not or will not listen to anything except that which afirms what they already believe.
User Reviews
Submitted by jraines (user info) at 2006-11-12 04:43:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I know exactly what you mean. I have an aunt who apparently gets bored and calls my house in the morning. My dad's retired (yes, I live at home. I'm a recent college crad and haven't found a job yet - aka frictional unemployment), but sometimes I answer. Anyway, she's super-Catholic, and we always get into politics. Her perspective is sometimes so radically different from me, I have a hard time finding my bearings.
P.S. I'm new to Ubersite and found this post, which I noticed when you put it up, but didn't bother to comment on. Reading it again, it deserves it. Anyway, I found this because I saw a weird apology from someone called foster and I was bouncing from user profile to user profile, trying to figure out this whole thing. If you notice this, what the hell is going on?
Submitted by foster (user info) at 2006-11-11 11:58:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
http://www.ubersite.com/m/95651
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-11-04 10:18:00 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by LeaderOfMen (user info) at 2006-11-03 16:50:31 (#)
Ranking: 0
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Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 05:13:20 (#)
Ranking: -1
You forget the slaughter of the native american indians too.
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Is this someone from the same country who defined colonialism, imperialism, assimilation, and slave trade? East Indes, India, Africa (especially south africa?!), not to mention various principalites and sovereignties splash across the planet and some fuck with a white wig landed his boat on some god forsaken spit of land and claimed it in the name of the Queen. The country that gave birth and defined subjugation and feudalism. Congrats.
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The very same nation who gave up the British Empire when virtually the whole world was flying the Union flag (India, Hong Kong, Africa etc), the first country with serious investment in slaves to give them up not as political opportunism, but as a moral act, the country which helped define democracy in any number of countries, including yours.
Can you think of any moral acts that America has done? Actions that have damaged America's ability to compete in exchange for some moral stance? Like signing Kyoto for instance? You haven't got shit. Any moment now you'll start the old 'if it wasn't for us you'd be speaking German' bollocks.
We're very aware of the ills we've done in the past - that's why Britain's role as head of the Commonwealth is taken so seriously.
My beef was with Jay's assertion that America was some sort of shining example - a paragon of virtue, when in fact it stinks as much, or more than virtually any other country.
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-11-04 08:52:23 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Don't really expect y'all to read all the reviews, so I'll just point out the few where we already went over that.
And after chattering with a gal here at work who happens to BE a Muslim (and rather devout, although not militantsly or anything) and she brought up a very good point.
Yes, there is few passages that advocate killing non-Muslims in the Koran, but then again, there are passages in the Bible where it says slavery is prefectly acceptable and that stoning non-believers in your own "tribe" (which has been read as 'everyone') and yet you don't see many people in Christianity or Judaism carting around negros or killing Muslims because they're not Christians. (Well, OK, the second half is a bit sketchy)
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-11-03 21:29:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by d_prime (user info) at 2006-11-03 20:26:41 (#)
Ranking: -2
"and how he thinks the Koran calls for the death of all non-Muslims"
It does. Read it, stupid.
________
Er...... as a matter of fact, it does....
Submitted by d_prime (user info) at 2006-11-03 20:26:41 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
"and how he thinks the Koran calls for the death of all non-Muslims"
It does. Read it, stupid.
Submitted by LeaderOfMen (user info) at 2006-11-03 16:50:31 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
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Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 05:13:20 (#)
Ranking: -1
You forget the slaughter of the native american indians too.
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Is this someone from the same country who defined colonialism, imperialism, assimilation, and slave trade? East Indes, India, Africa (especially south africa?!), not to mention various principalites and sovereignties splash across the planet and some fuck with a white wig landed his boat on some god forsaken spit of land and claimed it in the name of the Queen. The country that gave birth and defined subjugation and feudalism. Congrats.
Submitted by NetProphet (user info) at 2006-11-02 14:13:36 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
http://www.ubersite.com/m/95253
Let's start a revolution.
Well, fuck that... anyone can see it's already started.
So let's finish it.
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2006-11-01 14:09:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 07:29:59 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:31:48 (#)
Ranking: 0
We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.
Winston Churchill
magic
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Churchill totally stole that from Iron Maiden. I believe the song was two minutes to midnight.
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This is fucking gold...
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-11-01 13:43:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Sorry Caul, in a good mood today, not gonna fall into the argument you need.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-11-01 13:31:38 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
i read everything and you are still a simpleton.
much like your daddy, who's obviously a worthless piece of shit.
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-11-01 11:04:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Now do I think they all want that or believe in it, no. But combine a feverent belief in the Koran with a little ignorance and you have a very dangerous situation.
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My point exactly. He lumps every single Muslim into the "well, he's a terrorist because of his religion" block.
And GM, Caul, both of ya. Maybe you should read everything before you spout off like morons.
You missed the whole "Oh wait, we're not anymore" thing there.
So kindly fuckoffanddie, thankyasomuch.
Submitted by FartSmeller (user info) at 2006-11-01 09:32:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Good.
But try to realize that your dad is one of a minority. I know you might not believe it, but he is.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-11-01 08:43:31 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-11-01 08:24:57 (#)
Ranking: 0
any christian who thinks the bible is right and the koran is wrong can fuck off.
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I never said right or wrong.
The Koran is not open to interpretation. If you know anything about Islam you know that the Koran is literally Allah's will. That makes it very difficult to reconcile being a "good muslim" with a western lifestyle.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-11-01 08:24:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
any christian who thinks the bible is right and the koran is wrong can fuck off.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-11-01 08:18:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-10-31 18:24:04 (#)
Ranking: 0
Do you guys actually think ALL Muslims, or even MOST Muslims, or even a GOOD PERCENTANGE of Muslims advocate the death of non-Muslims?
Really? Honestly?
No, they fucking don't. Just because there is a VERY VERY SMALL percentage of a religious population that calls for the death of non-Muslims doesn't mean that all Muslims should be considered sub-human. That doesn't mean American Muslims should be seen as "Sub-American".
And let's not forget the teachings of ALL major religions. The golden rule. Do unto others as you would have done to you. You can't advocate the torture of Afghanis, or Pakistanis or Iraqis or Iranians or whoever, and then condemn those same people when they torture Americans.
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Read the Koran Jay. It isn't like the bible open to interpretation, it is the direct wqord of god.
In multiple places it either encourages killing non-muslims or forcing them to convert, or forcing them to pay a fine if they are going to be free to live among you. It says it is ok to lie cheat and steal from non-muslims (most of the non-muslim religion stuff applies to christians and jews, it holds other religions in even lower regard).
I have a few copies of the Koran at my house I will post the relevant passages. I am sure people will try and say it is a problem witht he translation but even in the most pro western versions there are a number of verses that spell out that non-muslims should be treated like mentioned above.
Now do I think they all want that or believe in it, no. But combine a feverent belief in the Koran with a little ignorance and you have a very dangerous situation.
Submitted by GMCrayon (user info) at 2006-11-01 04:11:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"We are the country that can look at any... ANY other country and say "Anything you can do, I can do better."
Honestly, the only thing you all are the best at is having your retards sprout statements like that. It's not even patriotism. Such arrogance in the face of such ignorance can only be described as "shameless", or more accurately, "stupidly shameless."
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-10-31 23:46:59 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
We are the country that can look at any... ANY other country and say "Anything you can do, I can do better." ""
This being the worse offense.
While your busy bullshiting yourself, asians and the likes are kicking the shit out of your industry and in many cases, not just because of cheap labor.
Submitted by Caulaincourt (user info) at 2006-10-31 23:40:49 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
your view of america is utterly ridiculous, childish and at times completly wrong. that is probably the main reason why foreigners hate americans...your simpletons and idiots like you are so fucking loud.
do yourself a favor and avoid politics. we've seen what happened when you tried to taclked darfur, immigration or language issues, etc...
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-10-31 23:03:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I have, but not everything. Hence the asking for something that does, so I don't make a mistake in the future in case there is something.
Submitted by Genko (user info) at 2006-10-31 22:32:33 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"And Bubba, honestly, I would love to see passages from the Koran that call for the death of non-Muslims. Nothing I've read from that book advocates a slaughter of "infidels".
(and if possible, book and passage)"
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Refering to unbelievers: "seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks." Sura 4:89
Nothing you've read from that book advocates a slaughter of infidels, but I suspect it's because you've read nothing from that book.
Submitted by Genko (user info) at 2006-10-31 22:18:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
http://www.ubersite.com/m/72239#1499729
Submitted by domenad (user info) at 2006-10-31 19:20:27 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Go eat your spicy chicken and shut up.
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-10-31 18:24:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Do you guys actually think ALL Muslims, or even MOST Muslims, or even a GOOD PERCENTANGE of Muslims advocate the death of non-Muslims?
Really? Honestly?
No, they fucking don't. Just because there is a VERY VERY SMALL percentage of a religious population that calls for the death of non-Muslims doesn't mean that all Muslims should be considered sub-human. That doesn't mean American Muslims should be seen as "Sub-American".
He advocates those who follow Islam being REGISTERED with the government, so that we can track them, JUST IN CASE the may be terrorist sympathizers. That's one step away from "Here, wear this patch so people walking in the street know"
Remember what the Declaration of Independence says. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
All men.
ALL MEN.
Not all American men.
Not all Christian men.
Not all White Men.
ALL MEN.
And let's not forget the teachings of ALL major religions. The golden rule. Do unto others as you would have done to you. You can't advocate the torture of Afghanis, or Pakistanis or Iraqis or Iranians or whoever, and then condemn those same people when they torture Americans.
Torture, for whatever reason, is wrong.
ALL torture.
Waterboarding, time deprevation, sleep deprivation, physical violence, mental distressing.
All of it is WRONG.
Tell me what the guys in Gitmo can tell us about Al Queida right now.
Seriously.
They've been there for 4 years now.
Four years.
They know NOTHING about anything, because all the knowledge they have is now at LEAST 3 years out of date.
Plus, it's been proven, dead solid PROVEN that non-physical, non-demeaning coersion yields better and more accurate results when compared to torturing and threatening.
And Bubba, honestly, I would love to see passages from the Koran that call for the death of non-Muslims. Nothing I've read from that book advocates a slaughter of "infidels".
(and if possible, book and passage)
Submitted by Genko (user info) at 2006-10-31 18:07:07 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 23:21:51 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Genko (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:55:08 (#)
Ranking: -1
Perhaps you ought to listen more carefully to your father. While he seems to be just as blindly nationalist as you are, he obviously has a better understanding of the Qur'an.
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BULLSHIT!!! The Koran, American spelling, calls for the death of those who do not believe as the asshole MOSlims do. Fuck them....
Don't give me shit, boy, I can quote chapter and verse from the KORAN. You are wrong...
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Good for you. Now go read Jay's post again, and then read what I said. Again.
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-10-31 17:29:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Coo, you're misreading this, man.
I'm saying we're NOT what we used to be. We're now the nation that bullies everyone else around, not caring if it's policies are wrong for a globalized civilization, and that's fucking horrifying to me.
When someone like my father, who's biggoted as the day is long in Arctic Summer, can say that people who think like him are in overwhelming power, it really bothers me.
When this country only sees the polar opposites on issues, and when the world at large think that all Americans fall into those two columns, those in the middle, like me, are distressed beyond belief, because we're the minority in every argument, and no one cares that compromise is the basis for this nation, not divisive polarization.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 17:06:18 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 15:05:54 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 14:21:44 (#)
Ranking: -2
Well - if some Christians were getting ethnically fucked over in Greece - don't you think there would be some reaction from other countries?
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I thought it was an economic issue not a religious/cultural one?
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What was an economic issue can resonate through other socio-economic groups.
Submitted by hairycoo (user info) at 2006-10-31 16:48:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
your government hasnt been on a moral compass since the late 1940s so you should extend your embarassment at least 50 years. The real nasty shit happened in Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia, Cambodia and most of south and central america. ignorant patronizing cunts got to learn that you cant chuck plastic democracy blankets over complex civiliations. reckon george bush knew that there were 2 types of Muslims in Iraq before he started his crusade? dont fucking think so id be surprised if he knoew now. nothings changed since 2001. same shit its just that you're caught up in the pompousity of now.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 15:05:54 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 14:21:44 (#)
Ranking: -2
Well - if some Christians were getting ethnically fucked over in Greece - don't you think there would be some reaction from other countries?
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I thought it was an economic issue not a religious/cultural one?
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-10-31 14:40:50 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:29:59 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:12:27 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Gunslinger (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:04:27 (#)
Ranking: 0
You make good points. But consider this,
"If a man is a conservative before he is 50, he has no soul.
If a man is not a conservative after then, he is an idiot."
Get me? errr...whoever said that, I guess. ""
churchill
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never said it
urban myth
look it up
Submitted by loki (user info) at 2006-10-31 14:36:25 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
(shrugs and clucks sympathetically)
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 14:21:44 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Well - if some Christians were getting ethnically fucked over in Greece - don't you think there would be some reaction from other countries?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:58:36 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:51:23 (#)
Ranking: -2
Yeah - but there are lots of facts that aren't pertinent. It's not a muslim riot. It's an economic riot.
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Then why did it spread to Muslims in other countries when it went on last year? I am not trying to argue that religion is the sole, or even main reason but it is an important one.
You can't really be suggesting that they don't take extra offense since they see it as a cops vs muslim issue, read some of the comments from the "man on the street", and look how it spread last year. Religion is playing a role in it and it is irresponsible for BBC not to report that.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:51:23 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Yeah - but there are lots of facts that aren't pertinent. It's not a muslim riot. It's an economic riot.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:41:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:36:58 (#)
Ranking: -2
That would be irresponsible. Why rile people?
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I think it is more irresponsible to omit facts for fear of riling people.
Besides I doubt the BBC reporter is going to say "those fucking muzzies are torchung cars again".
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:36:58 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
That would be irresponsible. Why rile people?
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:30:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:27:36 (#)
Ranking: -2
The BBC are making sure they do not offend a sensitive group - who are already feeling isolated - despite being British.
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Shouldn't their primary concern be reporting facts related tot he story, not worrying about upsetting a group that is, arguably, pissy about anything?
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:27:36 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:20:45 (#)
Ranking: 0
I think we are going around in circles now.
My final points again.
If it has fuck all to do with religion why did Dalil Boubekar, the Imam of The Grand Mosque in Paris, blame the government for the riots since it did not provide housing for Muslims that was to their liking during the riots last year? The key word there being Muslims.
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Poor housing for immigrant group = riots.
The key words being shit housing.
If it has fuck all to do with being Muslim why did BBC have Muslim all over their stories last year, but not this year. What do you think is more likely to have happened in the last year the demographic and the reasons for the riots changed, or the BBC has become more *sensitive* to even mentiuoning the word muslim with any type of negative action?
The BBC are making sure they do not offend a sensitive group - who are already feeling isolated - despite being British.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:26:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Sorry one other point, if it has nothing to do with Muslims then why did rioting last year extend to Muslim communities in other countries. Correct me if I am wrong but in Belgium you don't have the same disparity of unemployment rates between locals and immigrants. I realize it hasn't spread that far this time, but the link is still there.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:20:45 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I think we are going around in circles now.
My final points again.
If it has fuck all to do with religion why did Dalil Boubekar, the Imam of The Grand Mosque in Paris, blame the government for the riots since it did not provide housing for Muslims that was to their liking during the riots last year? The key word there being Muslims.
If it has fuck all to do with being Muslim why did BBC have Muslim all over their stories last year, but not this year. What do you think is more likely to have happened in the last year the demographic and the reasons for the riots changed, or the BBC has become more *sensitive* to even mentiuoning the word muslim with any type of negative action?
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 13:12:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I don't think any of the French rioters said (in French)
I'm doing this because I'm a muslim!
The equivelent is for a some Christian to assault someone over a racist remark - and then for the vicar to say 'tensions are running high'
Fuck all to do with religion
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 12:52:23 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2006-10-31 11:11:39 (#)
Ranking: 0
"This morning a Christian rapist assaulted three women and is now in custody at..."
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If you had a christian leader saying he was justified in doing it you should report his religion.
As is the case with the riots. Muslim leaders have said it is justified, which makes the religion an issue, maybe not the main one, but one worth reporting.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 11:15:04 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
*nods at Thorpe*
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2006-10-31 11:11:39 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"This morning a Christian rapist assaulted three women and is now in custody at..."
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 11:04:33 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
But if you had some nigerians involved too - and they were christians - and you called them all Muslims - you're making it seem like it's a religious thing - and not an economic thing
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 11:01:12 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Well now that we are completely off topic and on most heated I have to run.
I still think that muslim should have been mentioned, and that BBC thought it might offend if they mentioned that fact. Look back last year and you will see that they did mention it then.
What would have changed in a year to make that not worth mentioning?
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:56:47 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
http://www.cdc.gov/travel/images/map_nafrica.jpg
Path of immigration
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:55:15 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
vast majority are muslim immigrants.
A lot of nigerians speak english too - so they have some choice.
Northern africa = broadly muslim
Very easy to just jump on a ferry.
Primarily French immingrants are muslim.
Small population of christian immigrants. Also - they could be involved too - but by virtue of not being a large ethnic group - be denied the opportunity to have a rep.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:51:59 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I don't feel that story was an example of ommission - but rather of not wanting to throw a label at something - which would take a story of economic hardship and turn it into some kind of holy war.
The Beeb sets advisories on use of language to try and avoid offending groups. If you upset muslims, but not christians - does that mean you should pussyfoot aroudn everyone? No.
I don't find it wonderful that muslims get handled with kit gloves - but as a minority - and a vulnerable one - i think some concessions should be made.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:49:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:44:11 (#)
Ranking: -2
Primarily - French immigration is from former french colonies.
i.e. Algeria = Muslim
Mauritius = broadly muslim
Senegal = mixed
Guinea = mixed
Mali = muslim
Ivory coast = christian (i think)
Benin = dunno tbh
Nigeria = christian mainly
Chad =dunno
French Somaliliand = muslim
Lots of little islands too.
Anyway - if you were fleeing your country - and you were offered a chance to move to a country with the same language - as opposed to fitting in a new language etc - and most of these people just had to sail across the Med.
----------------------------------
So out of all those mixed and or christian countries none of the immigrant leaders are christian, or is that they aren't rioting?
I find it a little difficult to swallow that the only community leaders that would be involved would be muslim if christians are rioting as well.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:45:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:23:21 (#)
Ranking: -2
Christians tend to be less touchy I suppose - or at least used to it.
re. the reference
I believe one episode of Extras (a BBC comedy) had a salient line about the BBC
Ricky Gervais is talking to Les Dennis (a B list celeb). Les turns around and says "still teh same old bbc then?" Gervais nods and then Les continues with "run by queers and jews"
The bbc can laugh at itself and the world service is surely the most independent news service in the world.
-----------------------------
So the BBC should support insulting people not at an equal level, but should treat some groups like oversensitive children? Thet is very interesting.
As far as being "guilty of promoting a leftist agenda" why do you find that interesting? Shouldn't a news station go out of its way to not promote any agenda, be it left or right?
I am not challenging BBC's independence, I am challenging its own ability to stay neutral, to not insert their opinion on things by omission or only covering one side of the story.
A tactic that is all to often repeated is seen here.
http://bustingbbcbias.blogspot.com/2006/04/bbc-news-attempts-to-pass-palestinian.html
In 'Israel to step up Gaza shelling', one can read the following:
"She was the 16th Palestinian to die in Israeli air and artillery attacks on Gaza in the past four days."
The bias by omission is nothing less than outraging: BBC News wishes to have the reader believe that the 16 Palestinians killed were civilians, quite obviously, or it would state that of those 16 killed, 13 were militants:
Friday: six Palestinians killed, that is, five militants and a five-year-old human shield (total: five militants out of six killed)
Saturday: two gunmen killed as well as six other militants (total: 13 militants out of 14 killed)
Sunday: one Palestinian civilian killed (total: 13 militants out of 15 killed)
Monday: one Palestinian girl killed (total: 13 militants out of 16 killed)
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:44:11 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Now this may just be my ignorance of the immigration situation in France, and I could find no numbers, but I find it hard to believe that the only poor immigrants are muslim.
why are they the only ones burning busses, and why won't BBC mention this?
I am sorry you think it is sensationilist but the "Who". Is a big part of reporting and being muslim bears mentioning when the community leaders they speak to are muslim iman's (imamms, I forget).
---
Primarily - French immigration is from former french colonies.
i.e. Algeria = Muslim
Mauritius = broadly muslim
Senegal = mixed
Guinea = mixed
Mali = muslim
Ivory coast = christian (i think)
Benin = dunno tbh
Nigeria = christian mainly
Chad =dunno
French Somaliliand = muslim
Lots of little islands too.
Anyway - if you were fleeing your country - and you were offered a chance to move to a country with the same language - as opposed to fitting in a new language etc - and most of these people just had to sail across the Med.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:38:05 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:17:15 (#)
Ranking: -2
Once here - I expect them to pull their weight like anyone else - and if they want to work harder than a local person - then good on them.
Furthermore - even if they did come purely for economic factors - I don't have a major issue with that either. We've been fortunate to have a pretty good history economically. If they come here and work their arse off - surely they have jsut as much right as some doley scum sitting on his arse, smoking cigarettes and sponging off the govt?
------------------
I have nothing wrong with immigrants coming for purely economic reasons, I just mentioned that because I think it is a bigger puch than opression. If someone is rich in Iran they are probably staying.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:35:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
It's not coincidence at all. It's simple economic factors.
Immigrants = poor.
Immigration from islamic countries
High unemployment in France
Immigrants suffer most
Have you seen the French immigrant housing? They are a fucking disgrace. And i'm saying that as someone who has seen it first hand.
They are not being helped out - they've been asked to do all the shit jobs - and be thankful to be exploited. You don't have to be a marxist to see why there's discontent.
It makes clear and obvious sense for a community leader to be the one to discuss with the govt and air their grievances.
This isn't muzzers stirring up trouble. It's people who are being fucked over expressing how unhappy they are.
-------------------------
Now this may just be my ignorance of the immigration situation in France, and I could find no numbers, but I find it hard to believe that the only poor immigrants are muslim.
why are they the only ones burning busses, and why won't BBC mention this?
I am sorry you think it is sensationilist but the "Who". Is a big part of reporting and being muslim bears mentioning when the community leaders they speak to are muslim iman's (imamms, I forget).
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:23:42 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
also - that article says 'guilty of promoting left wing views'
Interesting phrase...
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:23:21 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Independence from govt, not from its own PC beliefs. The BBC admite that, "During the meeting, hosted by Sue Lawley, executives admitted they would happily broadcast the image of a Bible being thrown away - but would not do the same for the Koran." http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=7695 (has a link to the original article)
---
Christians tend to be less touchy I suppose - or at least used to it.
re. the reference
I believe one episode of Extras (a BBC comedy) had a salient line about the BBC
Ricky Gervais is talking to Les Dennis (a B list celeb). Les turns around and says "still teh same old bbc then?" Gervais nods and then Les continues with "run by queers and jews"
The bbc can laugh at itself and the world service is surely the most independent news service in the world.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:17:15 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
>>A short sighted argument. Look at immigration in somewhere like Newcastle. The predominant racial groups are Iranian, Pakistani, Senagalese, Thai and Democratic Republic of Congo. Do you think they moved to England because of the weather? Or because they were fleeing oppressive regimes/environment situations? There is such a thing as a temporary refugee and also such a thing as people doing something not out of choice, but necessity. Is it wrong for them to want to retain parts of their culture?
-Retaining parts is fine, recreating their home land isn't. I think economic opportunities is the biggest driving factor for immigration, not oppression.
---
Look at the countries. Iran = repressive regime. Pakistan = repressive regime. Senegal (peace loving?) Thailand = environmentally fucked after tsunami. Congo = war torn.
Honestly - any refugee has been granted the right to be here. They're not just asylum seekers - they have been approved.
Once here - I expect them to pull their weight like anyone else - and if they want to work harder than a local person - then good on them.
Furthermore - even if they did come purely for economic factors - I don't have a major issue with that either. We've been fortunate to have a pretty good history economically. If they come here and work their arse off - surely they have jsut as much right as some doley scum sitting on his arse, smoking cigarettes and sponging off the govt?
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:13:48 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
So it is a coincidence that the rioters are predominantly muslim in a non muslim country? That would seem to be pretty important to point out. All the leaders that politicians have met with to stop the riots have been muslim leaders. It is a coincidence you have people like Dalil Boubekar, the Imam of The Grand Mosque in Paris, blaming the government for the riots since it did not provide housing for Muslims that was to their liking during the riots last year? If Muslim leaders are issuing Fatwa's on the subject I wouldn't call it sensationalism to mention the religion of the rioters, I would call it reporting.
---
It's not coincidence at all. It's simple economic factors.
Immigrants = poor.
Immigration from islamic countries
High unemployment in France
Immigrants suffer most
Have you seen the French immigrant housing? They are a fucking disgrace. And i'm saying that as someone who has seen it first hand.
They are not being helped out - they've been asked to do all the shit jobs - and be thankful to be exploited. You don't have to be a marxist to see why there's discontent.
It makes clear and obvious sense for a community leader to be the one to discuss with the govt and air their grievances.
This isn't muzzers stirring up trouble. It's people who are being fucked over expressing how unhappy they are.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 10:05:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 09:37:25 (#)
Ranking: -2
>>The BBC is noted for its independence. Using the word 'Muslim' in relation to that article would be sensationalist. The stated reasons for the riot are
"Community leaders in run-down French suburbs have warned that the factors which played a key part in the riots - high unemployment, racial discrimination and alienation from mainstream society - remain unchanged. "
Not 'muslim anti-governmental feeling'
-------------------
Independence from govt, not from its own PC beliefs. The BBC admite that, "During the meeting, hosted by Sue Lawley, executives admitted they would happily broadcast the image of a Bible being thrown away - but would not do the same for the Koran." http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=7695 (has a link to the original article)
So it is a coincidence that the rioters are predominantly muslim in a non muslim country? That would seem to be pretty important to point out. All the leaders that politicians have met with to stop the riots have been muslim leaders. It is a coincidence you have people like Dalil Boubekar, the Imam of The Grand Mosque in Paris, blaming the government for the riots since it did not provide housing for Muslims that was to their liking during the riots last year? If Muslim leaders are issuing Fatwa's on the subject I wouldn't call it sensationalism to mention the religion of the rioters, I would call it reporting.
http://www.islamonline.org/English/News/2005-11/07/article01.shtml
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 09:46:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:54:55 (#)
Ranking: -2
>>A short sighted argument. Look at immigration in somewhere like Newcastle. The predominant racial groups are Iranian, Pakistani, Senagalese, Thai and Democratic Republic of Congo. Do you think they moved to England because of the weather? Or because they were fleeing oppressive regimes/environment situations? There is such a thing as a temporary refugee and also such a thing as people doing something not out of choice, but necessity. Is it wrong for them to want to retain parts of their culture?
-Retaining parts is fine, recreating their home land isn't. I think economic opportunities is the biggest driving factor for immigration, not oppression.
>>I know muslims who don't want to live under Shia law. I also know jews who don't eat pork in britain. What's the big deal? And women who still do all teh cooking and cleaning in teh house because it's tradition
-I have never heard of a jew or a catholic trying to say that all the laws should follow what their religion teaches (I am sure they are out there but an overwhelming minority), if that report is to be believed then 40% of Muslims in the UK do. Under Sharia law non-muslims must follow muslim rules.
>>I know more than a few lapsed muslims, and they are surprisingly not dead.
-Because they were fortunate enough to not convert in a country that practices sharia law.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 09:37:25 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 09:25:03 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:06:36 (#)
Ranking: -2
The telegraph is an extremist rag too.
----------------------------
What is a good source of info in the UK? I doubt the BBC would report this poll no matter how accurate it is seeing as how they are afraid to even mention "muslim" whan talking about gangs of muslim youths setting fires to busses and burning women.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6098458.stm
>>The BBC is noted for its independence. Using the word 'Muslim' in relation to that article would be sensationalist. The stated reasons for the riot are
"Community leaders in run-down French suburbs have warned that the factors which played a key part in the riots - high unemployment, racial discrimination and alienation from mainstream society - remain unchanged. "
Not 'muslim anti-governmental feeling'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 09:21:57 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:54:55 (#)
Ranking: -2
I was merely pointing out that these people didn't want to be British either. There may be degrees of difference - but pledging allegiance to the Pope, not the Crown and its government seem similar enough.
Blasphemy laws still exist in teh Uk.
----------------
You are a fucking idiot if you are really trying to say the differences between Catholics in Northern Ireland and a regular joe in the UK is comparable to the difference between someone who believes in shaira law and a regular joe in the UK.
Never mind that muslims came to the UK while the UK came to the northern Irish (I don't want to get into an argument about this but you have to realize that they have legitimate complaints about how they ended up being part of the UK).
>>A short sighted argument. Look at immigration in somewhere like Newcastle. The predominant racial groups are Iranian, Pakistani, Senagalese, Thai and Democratic Republic of Congo. Do you think they moved to England because of the weather? Or because they were fleeing oppressive regimes/environment situations? There is such a thing as a temporary refugee and also such a thing as people doing something not out of choice, but necessity. Is it wrong for them to want to retain parts of their culture?
Nevermind that 40% of catholics DON'T want to live under laws based off the pope's teachings (I know of no catholics who want that, although there are probably some out there).
>>I know muslims who don't want to live under Shia law. I also know jews who don't eat pork in britain. What's the big deal? And women who still do all teh cooking and cleaning in teh house because it's tradition
Is blasphemy punishable by death? Is converting from islam to any other religion punishable by death?
>>I know more than a few lapsed muslims, and they are surprisingly not dead.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 09:25:03 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:06:36 (#)
Ranking: -2
The telegraph is an extremist rag too.
----------------------------
What is a good source of info in the UK? I doubt the BBC would report this poll no matter how accurate it is seeing as how they are afraid to even mention "muslim" whan talking about gangs of muslim youths setting fires to busses and burning women.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6098458.stm
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 09:21:57 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:54:55 (#)
Ranking: -2
I was merely pointing out that these people didn't want to be British either. There may be degrees of difference - but pledging allegiance to the Pope, not the Crown and its government seem similar enough.
Blasphemy laws still exist in teh Uk.
----------------
You are a fucking idiot if you are really trying to say the differences between Catholics in Northern Ireland and a regular joe in the UK is comparable to the difference between someone who believes in shaira law and a regular joe in the UK.
Never mind that muslims came to the UK while the UK came to the northern Irish (I don't want to get into an argument about this but you have to realize that they have legitimate complaints about how they ended up being part of the UK).
Nevermind that 40% of catholics DON'T want to live under laws based off the pope's teachings (I know of no catholics who want that, although there are probably some out there).
Is blasphemy punishable by death? Is converting from islam to any other religion punishable by death?
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:59:13 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I don't know one person who laughed at those danish cartoons. They were wank.
Submitted by FilthyAssistant (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:58:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"We are the country that can look at any... ANY other country and say "Anything you can do, I can do better."
If you can explain how america is best in the world at either education (when massive swathes of your population are functionally illiterate) or healthcare (when people have to avoid going to the doctor because they simply can't afford it) I'd like to hear it.
Only thing I can think of that america is the only country in the world to do well is frying the shit out of japanese people in a massive nuclear explosion. Something to be proud of there, for sure.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:55:59 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I nearly pushed Ronan Keeting over because he tried to cut in front of me in a line for duty free. If i'd done that - doubtless the irish would have invaded.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:54:55 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:38:16 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:06:36 (#)
Ranking: -2
Approximately 40% of the population Northern Irish wanted to leave Britain and join with Ireland. Your point?
The telegraph is an extremist rag too.
-----------------------------
Are you seriously comparing the difference between the UK and Ireland, and the UK and a country with Shaira law?
UK and Ireland traditions, law and way of life are, when it comes down to it, almost exactly the same. This is not the case for the UK and Shaira law. People who want Shaira law would have no problem witht he death of infidels or those who insult Mohommad. Insutling Mo under shaira law can be punished by death, how many people in the UK laughed at those danish cartoons. If there is any accuracy to that report at all your dad ain't that far off the mark.
---
I was merely pointing out that these people didn't want to be British either. There may be degrees of difference - but pledging allegiance to the Pope, not the Crown and its government seem similar enough.
Blasphemy laws still exist in teh Uk.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:38:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:06:36 (#)
Ranking: -2
Approximately 40% of the population Northern Irish wanted to leave Britain and join with Ireland. Your point?
The telegraph is an extremist rag too.
-----------------------------
Are you seriously comparing the difference between the UK and Ireland, and the UK and a country with Shaira law?
UK and Ireland traditions, law and way of life are, when it comes down to it, almost exactly the same. This is not the case for the UK and Shaira law. People who want Shaira law would have no problem witht he death of infidels or those who insult Mohommad. Insutling Mo under shaira law can be punished by death, how many people in the UK laughed at those danish cartoons. If there is any accuracy to that report at all your dad ain't that far off the mark.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:06:36 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 07:34:32 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 05:19:25 (#)
Ranking: -2
I am also bewildered by the anti-muslim sentiment in the UK at the moment. I've had conversations with people who seem to think that 'all muslims hate britain - bloody terrorists - and they should just fuck off back to their own countries'
--------------------------------------
40% of muslims in the UK want Sharia Law. Does that sound like a group that is particularly friendly to their host country or that has a strong desire to be "british".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml
---
Approximately 40% of the population Northern Irish wanted to leave Britain and join with Ireland. Your point?
The telegraph is an extremist rag too.
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2006-10-31 08:03:07 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
""" don't get it. I really don't. I'll be blunt and honest with this, and I apologize to the Canucks and the Aussies and Kiwi's and Brits and anyone else who's not American reading this, but I believe that the United States of America has been, for the better part of 140 years, THE shining light, the beacon, the guidepost.
Flat out, since Reconstruction in the 1870's, the United States has been the "best" country in the world, and the best country FOR the world. We've been a symbol that other nations have looked upon and said "We want THAT".
No other country in the world can boast 250 years of being a continuous Democratic Republic. No other country can say that they've gone through a civil war and come out with the same form of government intact, and in fact BETTER because of it.
We are the Modern Rome.
We are the Modern Greece.
We are a government of, by and for people.
We are the country that prides itself on leading the revolution of human rights.
Slavery gone. Segregation gone.
Founding signator of the Geneva Convention.
Creator of the Monroe Doctrine.
The Truman Doctrine.
NATO.
Founding member of the United Nations.
We are the country that can look at any... ANY other country and say "Anything you can do, I can do better."
""""
Are you nuts?
Submitted by BLITZKREIG_BOB (user info) at 2006-10-31 07:51:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You should listen to your Dad.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 07:46:39 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-10-31 00:44:08 (#)
Ranking: 0
Bob, on the note of torture, one thing I was trying to get across to him was that the guys in Gitmo have been there for 3-4 years, so tortuing them does NO good, since Al Quaida has probably changed EVERYTHING about 50 times since then. PLans, people, locations, etc etc.
Those guys in Gitmo are so out of the loop, WE know more about Al Queida whereabouts than they do.
And I don't mean our government, I mean ME and YOU.
---------------------------
Correct me if I am wrong but the red cross does regularly visit detainees at Gitmo. The most common complaint I have heard from them was not respecting the religion of the detainees. The only claim I have ever read that comes close to approaching torture was the, "One one regular procedure was making uncooperative prisoners strip to their underwear, having them sit in a chair while shackled hand and foot to a bolt in the floor, and forcing them to endure strobe lights and loud rock and rap music played through two close loudspeakers, while the air-conditioning was turned up to maximum levels." I would hardly call that torture, and I know that is only for the prisoners that won't cooperate (see other red cross reports about prisoners who cooperate, the US was knocked for making them fat in one report).
The detainees might not know info about Al-Queda now bu, that doesn't mean they are safe to release.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 07:34:32 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 05:19:25 (#)
Ranking: -2
I am also bewildered by the anti-muslim sentiment in the UK at the moment. I've had conversations with people who seem to think that 'all muslims hate britain - bloody terrorists - and they should just fuck off back to their own countries'
--------------------------------------
40% of muslims in the UK want Sharia Law. Does that sound like a group that is particularly friendly to their host country or that has a strong desire to be "british".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-31 07:29:59 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:31:48 (#)
Ranking: 0
We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.
Winston Churchill
magic
------------------------------
Churchill totally stole that from Iron Maiden. I believe the song was two minutes to midnight.
Submitted by Dervel (user info) at 2006-10-31 06:48:37 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:29:30 (#)
Ranking: 0
The English Civil War took place between English Parliamentarians and Royalists from 1642 until 1651.
It gave us our parliamentary democracy.
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No it didn't.
It made us a Republic and gave us a warty faced, religious zealot dictator, hell-bent on massacring the Irish Catholics.
Cromwell was a cunt.
Submitted by Dervel (user info) at 2006-10-31 06:08:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 05:09:43 (#)
Ranking: -2
- while Lincoln's emancipation was surely politically motivated? got him some nice 'coloured boys' to do his fighting didn't it?
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He delivered the emancipation proclamation 2 years after the start of their civil war.
Yet it's still used as the reason and goal for the war against the confederations legal secession from the union.
Near the end of the war, Jefferson Davis did practically he same thing.
Makes you wonder why they had all that bother with Martin Luther King jnr in the 60's.
Hypocrisy like that just demands admiration.
The American experiment failed after 100 years.
Then, any criticism is met with the stock "if it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German."
Which can be met with an equally short-sighted "if it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking French."
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-10-31 05:31:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
no such thing as a golden age
no such thing
no one has ever had one
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 05:28:42 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
We are the country that can look at any... ANY other country and say "Anything you can do, I can do better."
---
Tell that to your poor hoping for medical treatment which the big pharmaceutical companies wont sell cheaply to them. National Health Service? Look at Sweden's health service and envy.
Tell that to your poor wanting to go to university. (Note Scotland has free tuition at universities - Britain as a whole is vastly discounted)
The welfare state, unemployment benefit, support for the needy - good old fashioned Christian morals.
Take a good hard look at yourself - when I hear an American say they can't afford to go to the doctors to get a checkup I think barbarian - I think savages - I think 'pity them.'
I think I'm all ETSing.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 05:19:25 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I am also bewildered by the anti-muslim sentiment in the UK at the moment. I've had conversations with people who seem to think that 'all muslims hate britain - bloody terrorists - and they should just fuck off back to their own countries'
I pointed out that we should probably kick the catholics out too on the basis of the actions of the IRA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army
Luckily though - the IRA appeared to be all white and difficult to tell apart from the 'true British'! Fortunate for them, otherwise a random foreign country would have been invaded and bombed back into the stone age in order to punish the actions of a militant minority.
Now - we certainly weren't snow white with regard to our treatment of northern irish nationals in the 80s-90s, but I didn't see the British Air Force trying to drop bombs down Gerry Adam's chimney. How very curious.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 05:13:20 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
You forget the slaughter of the native american indians too.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 05:10:49 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I realise that wasn't particularly well expressed. I was just grumpy and bewildered by your post's premise.
Submitted by redskieslookfake (user info) at 2006-10-31 05:09:43 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
This was utter wank Jay. The slavery issue has been highlighted already, in terms of 'democracy' you are not among the first to establish democractic principles - and just because you give people the right to have a gun to shoot people does not make you in any way a 'freer people' - it just illustrates how an old idea can continue to exist long after it should have been abolished by right minded people.
Slavery - the abolition of - cost the British empire a fortune (albeit gently over time) and was done from a moral stand point - while Lincoln's emancipation was surely politically motivated? got him some nice 'coloured boys' to do his fighting didn't it?
Your race relations record is terrible. Not just segregation - but actions against Japanese-Americans in World War II, Germans, Communists - whomever.
The gross hypocrisy of a nation which was set out to defend liberty, equality and fraternity, which then locks people in prison camps without trial, invading other nations on the premise that they 'might have' weapons of mass destruction, while leaving North Korea alone. A swaggering overweight bully strutting around pushing third world countries over and insisting they 'democracy up' all the while pumping out more pollution than any other country (and fuck Kyoto) - vetoing decisions in the UN more than any other country (fuck the other countries) and just generally being so up your own arses.
Frankly I worry about which nut job your people are going to elect next - or which country is next on the 'enemy of freedom' list.
There is a sickness in your land. I only hope that Bush's reign has done enough to spur the right minded people to get out there and educate the idiots who seem to make your decisions.
I'm not normally anti american - but jesus christ Jay - stop harking back to some golden age. You fuckers never had one.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2006-10-31 04:44:19 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-10-31 04:29:31 (#)
Ranking: 0
one last thing
I am all for revolution.
---
Amen, Brother Rad.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-10-31 04:29:31 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
one last thing
I am all for revolution.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-10-31 04:27:28 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I think out current attitude towards the muslim world is an overcorrection from our inability to deal with them in a heavy handed way in 1980.
Also, because of our alliance with Israel they hate us, pure and simple.
Does that mean we sink down to their level of brutality to keep us same from religiouis extremeists?
No
but we gotta do what we gotta do.
Tried by twelve is better than carried by six.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-10-31 02:51:23 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
is that where you think theres probably a god, as per pascals wager, but dont really care enough to base any morals around it?
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2006-10-31 02:50:50 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Im confused about agnostic deist
Submitted by jgreening (user info) at 2006-10-31 00:44:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Bob, on the note of torture, one thing I was trying to get across to him was that the guys in Gitmo have been there for 3-4 years, so tortuing them does NO good, since Al Quaida has probably changed EVERYTHING about 50 times since then. PLans, people, locations, etc etc.
Those guys in Gitmo are so out of the loop, WE know more about Al Queida whereabouts than they do.
And I don't mean our government, I mean ME and YOU.
Anyway, g'night, y'all. If I don't get near a comp tomorrow (yeah right, day off, doing candy at my Dad's house) have a good Halloween, and don't eat too much damned candy.
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 23:53:11 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by bob (user info) at 2006-10-30 23:36:28 (#)
Ranking: 0
That tortue shit was wrong. We should be able to torture people if we suspect that they have information that can harm the US, hell even Locke or Kant, the prototypical liberalists would agree with that notion.
theres only a peaceable accord between American and other democratic republics. A terrorist, no matter what country he/she comes from is not a part of that republic if they are taking non democratic means to achieve their goals. """
oh my god.
this is truly scary this cunt is like, 16, he is indoctrinated fully.
Submitted by bob (user info) at 2006-10-30 23:36:28 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
That tortue shit was wrong. We should be able to torture people if we suspect that they have information that can harm the US, hell even Locke or Kant, the prototypical liberalists would agree with that notion.
theres only a peaceable accord between American and other democratic republics. A terrorist, no matter what country he/she comes from is not a part of that republic if they are taking non democratic means to achieve their goals.
Submitted by Orgasmatron (user info) at 2006-10-30 23:32:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Greece crumbled. Rome burned. We need to make sure the foundation stops cracking before the pillars come crashing down around us.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 23:25:12 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Anyway, time for an old fuck to go to sleep.
More in the morning, I suppose. Bye...
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 23:21:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Genko (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:55:08 (#)
Ranking: -1
Perhaps you ought to listen more carefully to your father. While he seems to be just as blindly nationalist as you are, he obviously has a better understanding of the Qur'an.
____
BULLSHIT!!! The Koran, American spelling, calls for the death of those who do not believe as the asshole MOSlims do. Fuck them....
Don't give me shit, boy, I can quote chapter and verse from the KORAN. You are wrong...
Submitted by Genko (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:55:08 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
Perhaps you ought to listen more carefully to your father. While he seems to be just as blindly nationalist as you are, he obviously has a better understanding of the Qur'an.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:34:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I heard that speech on an old 78rpm record..
"We shall nevah surrendah..."
As I said, the fucking dude was awesome.....
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:31:48 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.
Winston Churchill
magic
Submitted by Serious_Melvin (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:26:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
He watches FNC, doesn't he.
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:25:17 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The British nation is unique in this respect. They are the only people who like to be told how bad things are, who like to be told the worst.
Winston Churchill
Submitted by ajanssen (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:19:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Fuck 'em and feed 'em fish heads and -2's.
Drew Janssen
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:17:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I am prepared to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.
Winston Churchill
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:04:03 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Churchill: "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly"
Try these: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/w/winston_churchill.html
The man was fucking brilliant...
Submitted by ajanssen (user info) at 2006-10-30 22:03:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Sinker, floater, double-flusher...its all the same to me. Just get your grease hot and ready you sons of stupid bitches.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:56:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by ajanssen (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:54:12 (#)
Ranking: 0
I am patiently waiting for the South to rise again
*********
Right. Save your Dixie cups.
The South shall rise again because shit floats...
bwahahahaahahahaaa!!
Submitted by ajanssen (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:54:12 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I am patiently waiting for the South to rise again
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:46:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
his best was this, at a party, drunk and obnoxioius.
Lady FarquarArseWipe: Sir, if you were my husband i'd poison your port.
Churchill: Madam, if you were my wife i'd drink it gladly.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:44:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Another quote from Churchill: (accurate? paraphrased?)
"That is the kind of impudence up with which I will not put."
Submitted by Crystle (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:40:39 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
well, Bubba.. he IS 100% awesome.
I know because I saw it with my own eyes, in black and white.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:40:36 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Bite my buttcheek, Apollo. I knew I had seen the quote before, but I forgot where.
Bite me.
:)
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:38:44 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:33:42 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:29:59 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:12:27 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Gunslinger (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:04:27 (#)
Ranking: 0
You make good points. But consider this,
"If a man is a conservative before he is 50, he has no soul.
If a man is not a conservative after then, he is an idiot."
Get me? errr...whoever said that, I guess. ""
churchill
****
Fuck me!! Apollo is correct!!! I fucked up... ""
i am usually correct old spout.
Submitted by iddqd (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:33:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
yeah you want to have a seriosu thnk about the awesomeness of a nation that while being a 'founding memeber of the united nations', is also the ONLY country to have broken ALL of its geneva conventions.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:33:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:29:59 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:12:27 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Gunslinger (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:04:27 (#)
Ranking: 0
You make good points. But consider this,
"If a man is a conservative before he is 50, he has no soul.
If a man is not a conservative after then, he is an idiot."
Get me? errr...whoever said that, I guess. ""
churchill
****
Fuck me!! Apollo is correct!!! I fucked up...
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:31:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2006-10-30 20:27:47 (#)
Ranking: 1
With all the "shining beacon" stuff I was worried you were getting carried away, but I suppose you've corrected yourself. Historically it certainly was true. Nowadays, in Australia at least, you'll mainly hear the phrases "turn out like America" and "Americanisation", as in "if we implement these laws we'll turn out like America". Very negative connotations. ""
substitue england
there are many excellent things about america but your race relations are not one of them
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:30:35 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Circe (user info) at 2006-10-30 20:14:17 (#)
Ranking: 0
America wasn't the first country to abolish slavery.
America was not a beacon of human rights in the sixties, when white mothers were spitting on black children trying to go to school. ""
that too.
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:29:59 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:12:27 (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Gunslinger (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:04:27 (#)
Ranking: 0
You make good points. But consider this,
"If a man is a conservative before he is 50, he has no soul.
If a man is not a conservative after then, he is an idiot."
Get me? errr...whoever said that, I guess. ""
churchill
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:29:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
The English Civil War took place between English Parliamentarians and Royalists from 1642 until 1651.
It gave us our parliamentary democracy.
Submitted by ilikesteak (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:14:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
What ever happened to the concept of having freedoms as a basic human right, instead of just an American one?
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:12:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Submitted by Gunslinger (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:04:27 (#)
Ranking: 0
You make good points. But consider this,
"If a man is a conservative before he is 50, he has no soul.
If a man is not a conservative after then, he is an idiot."
Get me? errr...whoever said that, I guess.
________________
Not 100% sure, but I think it was Mark Twain.
Submitted by Quint (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:05:43 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Just torture your father until he agrees with you.
Submitted by Gunslinger (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:04:27 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You make good points. But consider this,
"If a man is a conservative before he is 50, he has no soul.
If a man is not a conservative after then, he is an idiot."
Get me? errr...whoever said that, I guess.
Submitted by Bubba2341 (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:02:36 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
I'll comment later....
Submitted by Chroniclysm (user info) at 2006-10-30 21:01:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
My father takes an oppositional stance to political views I have, but I really think he does it for my benefit, and so I understand the adult world I'm entering with soild views that leave me still open to listening to things I don't agree with.
My father is a bred-Catholic deist, moderate republican.
My mom is a bred-catholic deist, moderate democrat.
I'm a bred-deist sent to Catholic School, liberal independent.
I don't think for a second that it isn't exactly what they were truly shooting for.
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2006-10-30 20:33:28 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Wait you are applauding the Truman doctrine, but were against Vietnam?
You o realize the truman doctrine was the basis for Vietnam? It was the basis for all the nasty little things people hate America for now?
Submitted by shitfuck (user info) at 2006-10-30 20:30:59 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
thorpe has a great point there.
our politicians frequently refer to americanization as the worst possible thing that could happen to true freedom loving people.
kinda sucks.
Submitted by thorpe (user info) at 2006-10-30 20:27:47 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
With all the "shining beacon" stuff I was worried you were getting carried away, but I suppose you've corrected yourself. Historically it certainly was true. Nowadays, in Australia at least, you'll mainly hear the phrases "turn out like America" and "Americanisation", as in "if we implement these laws we'll turn out like America". Very negative connotations.
Submitted by Shlongy (user info) at 2006-10-30 20:18:12 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
I don't believe any of this, despite the fact that I didn't READ any of this.
Submitted by 8track (