The sickest thing you will see today... (2970 hits)
Category: Science & EnvironmentalRating: -0.21 on 104 reviews (Rate this item) (V)
Submitted by 314159265358979 (View user info) at 2007-01-04 14:22:31 EST
For those that don't want to read pages and pages I'll give you the brief summary:
Family has [female] baby that is essentially a vegitable. Child is now 9 years old. Family orders breasts, uterus and appendix removed. Also orders special hormone treatment to ensure that the child's body doesn't grow anymore - i.e. remains a 9 year old for life. Justifies this "treatment" as improving child's quality of life. Perhaps it's just me but after reading about the condition of this poor girl I think pulling the plug would be more apt to improve the quality of her life rather than multilating her body. How fucking sick are these people?
The "Ashley Treatment",
Towards a Better Quality of Life for "Pillow Angels"
January 3rd, 2007
By Ashley's Mom and Dad
PillowAngel.at.hotmail.com
(Note to the media: we are getting more emails and requests than we can possibly handle-- more than 500 in the last 24 hrs. Ashley is doing well, healthy, happy, and lovingly cared for. Please focus on the five emphasised paragraphs below, since it conveys our key points and message that we would like the press to convey. We hereby grant you permission to use Ashley's photos and to quote from our article as long as you clearly give credit to, reference, and include a link to this article: http://ashleytreatment.spaces.live.com/blog
We, her parents, want to attend to family life, as we should.)
Ashley's Story
Our daughter Ashley had a normal birth, but her mental and motor faculties did not develop. Over the years, neurologists, geneticists, and other specialists conducted every known traditional and experimental test, but still could not determine a diagnosis or a cause. Doctor's call her condition "static encephalopathy of unknown etiology", which means an insult to the brain of unknown origin or cause, and one that will not improve.
Now nine years old, Ashley cannot keep her head up, roll or change her sleeping position, hold a toy, or sit up by herself, let alone walk or talk. She is tube fed and depends on her caregivers in every way. We call her our "Pillow Angel" since she is so sweet and stays right where we place her—usually on a pillow.
Ashley is a beautiful girl whose body is developing normally with no external deformities; see photos. She is expected to live a full life and was expected to attain a normal adult height and weight. Ashley being in a stable condition is a blessing because many kids with similarly severe disabilities tend to deteriorate and not survive beyond five years of age.
Ashley is alert and aware of her environment; she startles easily. She constantly moves her arms and kicks her legs. Sometimes she seems to be watching TV intently. She loves music and often gets in celebration mode of vocalizing, kicking, and choreographing/conducting with her hands when she really likes a song (Andrea Boccelli is her favorite - we call him her boyfriend). She rarely makes eye-contact even when it is clear that she is aware of a person's presence next to her. Ashley goes to school in a classroom for special needs children, which provides her with daily bus trips, activities customized for her, and a high level of attention by her teachers and therapists.
Ashley brings a lot of love to our family and is a bonding factor in our relationship; we can't imagine life without her. She has a sweet demeanor and often smiles and expresses delight when we visit with her, we think she recognizes us but can't be sure. She has a younger healthy sister and brother. We constantly feel the desire to visit her room (her favorite place with special lights and colorful displays) or have her with us wanting to be in her aura of positive energy. We're often huddled around her holding her hand, thus sensing a powerful connection with her pure, innocent and angelic spirit. As often as we can we give her position changes and back rubs, sweet talk her, move her to social and engaging places, and manage her entertainment setting (music or TV). In return she inspires abundant love in our hearts, so effortlessly; she is such a blessing in our life!
To express how intensely we feel about providing Ashley with the best care possible, we would like to quote from a private email that we received from a loving mother with her own 6 year old "Pillow Angel": "In my mind, I have to be immortal because I have to always be here on Earth to take care of my precious child. Taking care of him is difficult, but it is never a burden. I am [his] eyes, ears and voice. He is my best friend, and I have dedicated my life to providing joy and comfort to him. To my last breath, everything I will ever do will be for him or because of him. I cannot adequately put into words the amount of love and devotion I have for my child. I am sure that you feel the same way about Ashley."
The chance of Ashley having significant improvement, such as being able to change her position in bed, let alone walk, is non-existent. She has been at the same level of cognitive and mental developmental ability since about three months of age.
Faced with Ashley's medical reality, as her deeply loving parents, we worked with her doctors to do all we could to provide Ashley with the best possible quality of life. The result is the "Ashley Treatment."
Summary
The "Ashley Treatment" is the name we have given to a collection of medical procedures for the improvement of Ashley's quality of life. The treatment includes growth attenuation through high-dose estrogen therapy, hysterectomy to eliminate the menstrual cycle and associated discomfort to Ashley, and breast bud removal to avoid the development of large breasts and the associated discomfort to Ashley. We pursued this treatment after much thought, research, and discussions with doctors.
Nearly three years after we started this process, and after the treatment was published in October, 2006 by Dr. Gunther and Dr. Diekema in a medical journal1 that resulted in an extensive and worldwide coverage by the press[2, 3, 6] and a broad public discussion4, we decided to share our thoughts and experience for two purposes: first, to help families who might bring similar benefits to their bedridden "Pillow Angels"; second, to address some misconceptions about the treatment and our motives for undertaking it.
A fundamental and universal misconception about the treatment is that it is intended to convenience the caregiver; rather, the central purpose is to improve Ashley's quality of life. Ashley's biggest challenges are discomfort and boredom; all other considerations in this discussion take a back seat to these central challenges. The "Ashley Treatment" goes right to the heart of these challenges and we strongly believe that it will mitigate them in a significant way and provide Ashley with lifelong benefits.
Unlike what most people thought, the decision to pursue the "Ashley Treatment" was not a difficult one. Ashley will be a lot more physically comfortable free of menstrual cramps, free of the discomfort associated with large and fully-developed breasts, and with a smaller, lighter body that is better suited to constant lying down and is easier to be moved around.
Ashley's smaller and lighter size makes it more possible to include her in the typical family life and activities that provide her with needed comfort, closeness, security and love: meal time, car trips, touch, snuggles, etc. Typically, when awake, babies are in the same room as other family members, the sights and sounds of family life engaging the baby's attention, entertaining the baby. Likewise, Ashley has all of a baby's needs, including being entertained and engaged, and she calms at the sounds of family voices. Furthermore, given Ashley's mental age a nine and a half year old body is more appropriate and more dignified than a fully grown female body.
We call it "Ashley Treatment" because:
1- As far as we know Ashley is the first child to receive this treatment,
2- We wanted a name that is easy to remember and search for,
3- The name applies to a collection of procedures that together have the purpose of improving Ashley's quality of life and well-being. Growth attenuation is only one aspect of the treatment.
The "Ashley Treatment"
In early 2004 when Ashley was six and a half years old, we observed signs of early puberty. In a related conversation with Ashley's doctor, Ashley's Mom came upon the idea of accelerating her already precocious puberty to minimize her adult height and weight. We scheduled time with Dr. Daniel F. Gunther, Associate Professor of Pediatrics in Endocrinology at Seattle's Children's Hospital, and discussed our options. We learned that attenuating growth is feasible through high-dose estrogen therapy. This treatment was performed on teenage girls starting in the 60's and 70's, when it wasn't desirable for girls to be tall, with no negative or long-term side effects.
The fact that there is experience with administering high-dose estrogen to limit height in teen-age girls gave us the peace of mind that it was safe—no surprise side effects. Furthermore, people found justification in applying this treatment for cosmetic reasons while we were seeking a much more important purpose, as will be detailed below.
In addition to height and weight issues, we had concerns about Ashley's menstrual cycle and its associated cramps and discomfort. We also had concerns about Ashley's breasts developing and becoming a source of discomfort in her lying down position and while strapped across the chest area in her wheelchair, particularly since there is a family history of large breasts and other related issues that we discuss below. The estrogen treatment would hasten both the onset of the menstrual cycle and breast growth. Bleeding during the treatment would likely be very difficult to control.
It was obvious to us that we could significantly elevate Ashley's adult quality of life by pursuing the following three goals:
1- Limiting final height using high-dose estrogen therapy.
2- Avoiding menstruation and cramps by removing the uterus (hysterectomy).
3- Limiting growth of the breasts by removing the early breast buds.
The surgeon also performed an appendectomy during the surgery, since there is a chance of 5% of developing appendicitis in the general population, and this additional procedure presented no additional risk. If Ashley's appendix acts up, she would not be able to communicate the resulting pain. An inflamed appendix could rupture before we would know what was going on, causing significant complication.
Ashley was dealt a challenging life and the least that we could do as her loving parents and caregivers is to be diligent about maximizing her quality of life. The decision to move forward with the "Ashley Treatment" was not a difficult one for us as most seem to think4. It was obvious that a reduction in Ashley's height (and therefore weight), elimination of the menstrual cycle, and avoidance of large breasts would bring significant benefits to her health and comfort. The only downside that we could think of was the surgery itself; however, the involved surgery is commonly done and is not complicated. Furthermore, we're fortunate to have access to one of the best surgical facilities and teams at Seattle Children's Hospital. If we were in a less developed locale or country with higher risk of surgery, we would have looked at this part of the analysis differently.
Since the "Ashley Treatment" was new and unusual, Dr. Gunther scheduled us to present our case to the ethics committee at Seattle Children's Hospital, which we did on May 5th 2004. The committee includes about 40 individuals from different disciplines and is evenly composed of men and women. After we presented our case we waited outside while the committee deliberated the issue. The committee chairman along with Doctor Diekema, ethics consultant, conveyed the committee's decision to us, which was to entrust us with doing the right thing for Ashley. There was one legal issue that we needed to investigate related to "sterilization" of a disabled person. Upon consultation with a lawyer specializing in disability law, we found out that the law does not apply to Ashley's case due to the severity of her disability, which makes voluntary reproduction impossible. The law is intended to protect women with mild disability who might chose to become pregnant at some future point, and should have the right to do so. Furthermore, "sterilization" is a side effect of the "Ashley Treatment" and not its intent.
The combined hysterectomy, breast bud removal, and appendectomy surgery was performed without complications in July 2004. Ashley spent four days in the hospital under close supervision, and thanks to aggressive pain control her discomfort appeared minimal. In less than one month, Ashley's incisions healed and she was back to normal; it's remarkable how kids heal so much quicker than adults. Ashley's Mom had had a C-section and knew first hand how Ashley would feel after surgery; thankfully, the recovery went much better than Mom anticipated.
Shortly after the surgery and recovery, we started the high-dose estrogen therapy. We've just completed this treatment after two and a half years. During this whole period, we have observed no adverse consequences.
Following we provide more details about the different aspects of the treatment and the related benefits.
Limiting Final Height Using High-Dose Estrogen
After the surgery, we started Ashley on a high-dose estrogen therapy using derma-patches that we change every three days. Estrogen advances bone age until separate growth plates in the bones fuse together, see photos, halting growth and determining the extent of height. This occurs in both boys and girls.
Dr. Gunther sees Ashley every three months to monitor:
- Weight and height
- Bone age, by comparing her hand X-ray to a set of reference photos
- Estrogen level, and other tests, through blood work
Based on Dr. Gunther's analysis, predictions, and estimates, this treatment is expected to reduce Ashley's untreated height by 20% and weight by 40%. If we had started the treatment at a younger age, the benefits to Ashley would have been greater.
More specifically, at this point Ashley is 53" (4' 5"), (average for a nine and a half year old girl), and has a bone age of 15 years (see photos), which implies that she is about 99% of her height. When Ashley was 6 years and 6 months old she was 48" (4' 0"), (75th percentile for her age at the time). Normal growth would have resulted in an adult height in the neighborhood of 66" (5' 6"), (Ashley's Mom and Dad, are 5' 9" and 6' 1", respectively). Therefore, the treatment is expected to produce a height reduction of 13 inches (or 20%). Average weight of a 4' 5" woman is 75 lbs, while the average weight of a 5' 6" woman is around 125 lbs, so the treatment is expected to produce a weight reduction of 50 pounds (or 40%).
We are currently near the limits of our ability to lift Ashley at 65 pounds. Therefore, an additional 50 pounds would make all the difference in our capacity to move her. Furthermore, other than her Mom and Dad the only additional care givers entrusted to Ashley's care are her two Grandmothers, who find Ashley's weight even more difficult to manage. We tried hard and found it impossible to find qualified, trustworthy, and affordable care providers.
The main benefit of the height and weight reduction is that Ashley can be moved considerably more often, which is extremely beneficial to her health and well being. Currently, one person can carry Ashley, versus requiring two people or a hoisting harness and ropes, should she have grown larger. As a result, Ashley can continue to delight in being held in our arms and will be moved and taken on trips more frequently and will have more exposure to activities and social gatherings (for example, in the family room, backyard, swing, walks, bathtub, etc.) instead of lying down in her bed staring at TV (or the ceiling) all day long. In addition, the increase in Ashley's movement results in better blood circulation, GI functioning (including digestion, passing gas), stretching, and motion of her joints.
Furthermore, Ashley remaining child sized has other practical ramifications such as:
1- She will continue to fit in and be bathed in a standard size bathtub. Since Ashley can't sit, she needs to lie down in the bathtub. Without the treatment eventually she would stop fitting in a standard size bathtub and would need a different arrangement for bathing.
2- Ashley is more comfortable lying down and does not like to sit in her wheelchair, she fusses and cries if she is in it for more than a short time. We move her around the house while lying down in a regular double-stroller (we face the chairs together, cover them with a thick double natural sheepskin and set the back of one to a reclining angle). The system works remarkably well; however, Ashley is already at the weight limit for which this stroller is designed (two babies).
Recently, a doctor suggested that Ashley will be less prone to infections as a result of her smaller size. Bedridden individuals are more susceptible to potentially fatal infections. Both the reduction in size in itself, and the increased movement and resulting blood circulation are expected to reduce the occurrence and magnitude of such infections including:
1- Skin sores: larger body weight leads to pressure skin ulceration or bed sores, providing an inlet for deadly bacterial infections (another way to look at this is that adults are more susceptible to bed sores than children).
2- Pneumonia: increased body weight increases the pressure on the chest and reduces the lungs' ability to expand, causing fluid build up in the lungs that increases the chance for pneumonia and breathing complications.
3- Bladder infection: similarly, increased body weight causes increased pressure on the bladder outlet, resulting in urinary retention and an increased risk for bladder infections.
These points make intuitive sense and so we decided to mention them; however, at this point we do not know of a study to reference that provides us with an objective and quantitative understanding of these benefits.
Hysterectomy
Ashley has no need for her uterus since she will not be bearing children. This procedure will avoid the menstrual cycle and all the bleeding/discomfort/pain/cramps that are so commonly associated with it.
The procedure involved removing Ashley's uterus but keeping her ovaries to maintain her natural hormones.
Additional and incidental benefits include avoiding any possibility of pregnancy, which to our astonishment does occur to disabled women who are abused, including a case mentioned in the discussion4. The hysterectomy also eliminates the possibility of uterine cancer and other common and often painful complications that cause women later in life to undergo the procedure.
Preventing Breast Growth by Removing the Early Breast Buds
Ashley has no need for developed breasts since she will not breast feed and their presence would only be a source of discomfort to her. This is especially true since Ashley is likely destined to have large breasts, given her maternal and paternal female lineage; for example, an aunt had a breast reduction operation at age 19. Large breasts are uncomfortable lying down with a bra and even less comfortable without a bra. Furthermore, breasts impede securing Ashley in her wheelchair, stander, or bath chair, where straps across her chest are needed to support her body weight. Before the surgery Ashley had already exhibited sensitivity in her breasts.
Though this step in the treatment might seem extreme to some, it is a simple procedure when the breasts are still undeveloped. This operation involved removing Ashley's subcutaneous, almond-sized breast buds, which contain the milk glands, while keeping the areolas and nipples intact. This surgery was done with small incisions below the areola, the slight scars almost disappeared a month after the surgery. This operation is akin to removing a birthmark and is a very different surgery from a mastectomy on an adult woman with developed breasts. Furthermore, when done in conjunction with the hysterectomy this step poses little to no additional recovery time or surgery risk (for example, anesthesia is done once).
The breast bud removal has other benefits:
1- Avoiding the possibility of painful fibrocystic growth and future related surgeries. Women in Ashley's lineage have a history of fibrocystic growth.
2- Avoiding the possibility of breast cancer. Ashley has breast cancer history in her family.
3- Large breasts could "sexualize" Ashley towards her caregiver, especially when they are touched while she is being moved or handled, inviting the possibility of abuse.
Of all the things we wanted to do to provide lasting physical comfort and quality of life to Ashley, the breast bud removal posed the biggest challenge to Ashley's doctors, and to the ethics committee. We overcame this reluctance by detailing the benefits above, recounting Ashley's family history of breast problems, and pointing out the fact that the same procedure is commonly provided to males for cosmetic reasons and to mitigate unwanted breast development (Gynecomastia). In boys who might receive high-dose estrogen therapy in the future, breast growth will become an important consideration, and can be dealt with as in Ashley's case.
Addressing some Common Misconceptions
By reviewing the opinions that were expressed in an online discussion group4, it became clear to us that there are several misconceptions or misunderstandings about the treatment that we provided for our daughter and our motivation for pursuing it, which we address here.
We are thankful to the support and prayers from many, and we included some of the supportive comments below. At the same time we're surprised at the volume and magnitude of the critical comments. We carefully reviewed these comments: they seemed to us to be gut reactions without depth or rational consideration of the situation, the treatment, or the motivation behind it, which we hope this article sheds more light on. It seems that people are thinking of a child who is mostly normal or who might progress to approach normal. As we stated earlier, Ashley has not shown material progress in her mental ability since she was three months of age, she is dependent on us in every way (including position change), she can't hold a toy, and we're not sure she recognizes us.
To put our decision process in perspective, it is not uncommon for parents with children who have cancer or birth defects to pursue significantly more intrusive treatment (chemo or radiation therapy) or more involved surgery (limb amputations or face reconstruction), than what the "Ashley Treatment" entails. We strongly believe that the benefits that we're seeking for Ashley are not any less worthy than these other unfortunate situations entail.
<We hope that by now it is clear that the "Ashley Treatment" is about improving Ashley's quality of life and not about convenience to her caregivers. Ashley's biggest challenge is discomfort and boredom and the "Ashley Treatment" goes straight to the heart of this challenge. It is common for Ashley to be uncomfortable or to be bored. Even though Ashley's level of tolerance has increased along the years, she is helpless when bothered and her only recourse is to cry until someone comes to her rescue. These episodes are triggered by something as simple as sliding off the pillow or a hair landing on her face and tickling/bothering her, let alone menstrual cramps, adult-level bed sores, and discomfort caused by large breasts. Also, without the treatment, Ashley could not be moved as frequently or be as included in family life, and we would not experience the joy of being an intact family as often.
If people have concerns about Ashley's dignity, she will retain more dignity in a body that is healthier, more of a comfort to her, and more suited to her state of development as George Dvorsky, a member of the Board of Directors for the Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies, alludes to in a related article5: "If the concern has something to do with the girl's dignity being violated, then I have to protest by arguing that the girl lacks the cognitive capacity to experience any sense of indignity. Nor do I believe this is somehow demeaning or undignified to humanity in general; the treatments will endow her with a body that more closely matches her cognitive state - both in terms of her physical size and bodily functioning. The estrogen treatment is not what is grotesque here. Rather, it is the prospect of having a full-grown and fertile woman endowed with the mind of a baby."
Even though caring for Ashley involves hard and continual work, she is a blessing and not a burden. She brings a lot of love to our hearts as we're sure all "Pillow Angels" bring their families. If there is a prize for those who have the record of how often they are told "I Love You", we're certain that these kids would win it effortlessly. Ashley's presence in our home kindles abundant feelings of love in all members of the family. It is a joy just being with her, she brings nourishment to our souls; it is a pleasure to visit with her and sweet talk her and observe her innocent and genuine smile. Ashley sets the barometer in our home, when she is happy we're happy and when she is not we're not.
We are very fortunate that Ashley is a healthy child, outside her abnormal mental development, and is in a stable condition. We're describing our unique experience which is not universal in this regard, and most likely not even representative. We fully understand that different "Pillow Angels" have different problems and pose different challenges to their caregivers, and that different families have different abilities and resources to provide for their special needs children.
The decision to move forward with this treatment, unlike what most have thought, was not difficult. Ever since we researched the idea and with Ashley's doctor's confirmation that it could be done, we focused squarely on getting it done as quickly as we could to maximize the benefits. It was clear to us that the lifelong benefits to Ashley by far outweigh risk factors associated with the treatment.
Furthermore, we did not pursue this treatment with the intention of prolonging Ashley's care at home. We would never turn the care of Ashley over to strangers even if she had grown tall and heavy. In the extreme, even an Ashley at 300 pounds, would still be at home and we would figure out a way to take care of her.
The objection that this treatment interferes with nature is one of the most ridiculous objections of all; medicine is all about interfering with nature. Why not let cancer spread and nature takes its course. Why give antibiotics for infections? Even an act as basic as cutting hair or trimming nails is interfering with nature.
Some question how God might view this treatment. The God we know wants Ashley to have a good quality of life and wants her parents to be diligent about using every resource at their disposal (including the brains that He endowed them with) to maximize her quality of life. Knowingly allowing avoidable suffering for a helpless and disabled child can't be a good thing in the eyes of God. Furthermore, the God we know wants us to actively share our experience and learning with the rest of the world to help all "Pillow Angels" and other special need children in reaping the benefits of the "Ashley Treatment".
We want to avoid sensationalism or philosophical debates about what we did and why we did it. We'd rather care for and enjoy Ashley than get into endless debates. In our opinion, only parents with special-needs children are in a position to fully relate to this topic. Unless you are living the experience, you are speculating and you have no clue what it is like to be the bedridden child or their caregivers. Furthermore, in the case of the female aspects of the treatment, women are in a better position to relate to these aspects and the benefits for which they are intended.
What this Means to Other Families with "Pillow Angels"
There were several postings in4 by parents with special need children, indicating that they wish they had the option of the "Ashley Treatment" before their kids reached their adult size and how this would have changed their lives significantly. You can see a sampling of these points of view below. One mother explained in graphic detail how heart breaking it was for her to have to let her daughter go to a care center since "I am tired, my body is breaking down rapidly, and emotionally drained" and she stopped being able to care for her daughter at home. It is this type of family that we hope our experience will help some day.
Clearly, the "Ashley Treatment" is not for all disabled kids. Our daughter's condition pointed to a clear decision where the benefits far outweigh the risks and short term discomfort associated with surgery. Families of other kids may likewise find the "Ashley Treatment" to be the right approach for them. It is our hope that this treatment becomes well-accepted and available to such families, so they can bring its benefits to their special needs child if appropriate and at an optimal age in order to obtain the most benefits.
Clearly, a decision on the applicability of the "Ashley Treatment" needs to be made upon careful evaluation of their child's unique condition, with help from their doctors, and careful evaluation of the benefits that might be obtained. We believe the parents are in the best position to make this evaluation and ultimately make this decision.
In addition, our understanding is that the growth limiting aspect of the "Ashley Treatment" is applicable to male children. It seems to us that it even makes more sense in their case, since boys tend to grow taller and bigger. In boys hysterectomy will not be an issue; however, since estrogen will result in breast growth, the breast bud removal surgery would still need to be considered.
Acknowledgment
Our sincerest thanks to Ashley's doctors and the surgery team at Seattle Children's for their world class expertise, competence and support throughout this pioneering treatment. Special thanks to Doctor Daniel F. Gunther, without whose courage, confidence, knowledge, open mindedness and unwavering support the treatment would not have been realized and the idea would have remained just an idea. We know that many endocrinologists would not have ventured into such new territory. It is our, and Ashley's luck, that we knocked the right door. We thank Margaret Russell and other friends who reviewed this article and provided feedback that helped us improve it significantly
http://ashleytreatment.spaces.live.com/blog/
User Reviews
Submitted by zakalwe (user info) at 2007-01-09 16:57:29 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
No Comment
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-08 20:10:38 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by coley (user info) at 2007-01-08 00:53:59 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-08 00:49:15 (#)
Ranking: 0
I thought my argument made sence.
And I dont apreciate being given a "frowny-face."
Just be an adult and use cuss words.
=====
heheheheh.
Okay you motherfucking cockwipe, I just didn't agree.
Is that better? I didn't like talking like that. I'm a lady.
I won't give you a frowny face again as much as I like to make emoticons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's better. Now show me your tits!
Submitted by sweetcheebs (user info) at 2007-01-08 15:35:03 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
they made the right choice
Submitted by particle_man58 (user info) at 2007-01-08 12:30:48 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
thats some crazy shit
Submitted by coley (user info) at 2007-01-08 00:53:59 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-08 00:49:15 (#)
Ranking: 0
I thought my argument made sence.
And I dont apreciate being given a "frowny-face."
Just be an adult and use cuss words.
=====
heheheheh.
Okay you motherfucking cockwipe, I just didn't agree.
Is that better? I didn't like talking like that. I'm a lady.
I won't give you a frowny face again as much as I like to make emoticons.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-08 00:49:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by coley (user info) at 2007-01-07 12:27:12 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by messmind (user info) at 2007-01-07 09:27:33 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by coley (user info) at 2007-01-06 17:26:26 (#)
Ranking: 0
<3 darko, Circe, jade, and homer42.
>:( Flack, rorrim, et al.
Nice to be judged like that , While taking all viewpoints in consideration .
-2 for the ruling order . +2 for honest opposition statements.
(But offcourse , Uber is not a democracy,like most western country's are these days...)
========
is that supposed to be sarcasm?
I just think it's a crock of shit when people are not only suggesting that a human being be "put down" because of their level of "uselessness", but their arguments and overall sentiment is completely heartless and lacking in logic. But hey, that's just me.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
I thought my argument made sence.
And I dont apreciate being given a "frowny-face."
Just be an adult and use cuss words.
Submitted by coley (user info) at 2007-01-07 12:27:12 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by messmind (user info) at 2007-01-07 09:27:33 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by coley (user info) at 2007-01-06 17:26:26 (#)
Ranking: 0
<3 darko, Circe, jade, and homer42.
>:( Flack, rorrim, et al.
Nice to be judged like that , While taking all viewpoints in consideration .
-2 for the ruling order . +2 for honest opposition statements.
(But offcourse , Uber is not a democracy,like most western country's are these days...)
========
is that supposed to be sarcasm?
I just think it's a crock of shit when people are not only suggesting that a human being be "put down" because of their level of "uselessness", but their arguments and overall sentiment is completely heartless and lacking in logic. But hey, that's just me.
Submitted by messmind (user info) at 2007-01-07 09:27:33 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by coley (user info) at 2007-01-06 17:26:26 (#)
Ranking: 0
<3 darko, Circe, jade, and homer42.
>:( Flack, rorrim, et al.
Nice to be judged like that , While taking all viewpoints in consideration .
-2 for the ruling order . +2 for honest opposition statements.
(But offcourse , Uber is not a democracy,like most western country's are these days...)
Submitted by Maddog (user info) at 2007-01-07 08:44:30 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Drowning would be more humane. This is fucking sick.
Submitted by ripple (user info) at 2007-01-07 07:24:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-05 23:17:07 (#)
Ranking: 0
Unbelievable... Keeping this severely fucked up kid like a pet and altering it to be more "convenient" to care for... "our little pillow angel" - that's fine but putting her out of her misery is sick. Some world we live in.
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the situation is impossible to begin with. everyone loses, there is no right answer.
yeah, maybe- probably- it would ultimately be more merciful/better for everyone if ashley had died of SIDS as a baby. but she didnt.
though the treatment is indoubtedly twisted, imagine how attatched a parent gets to their child in just 3 months. now imagine this attatchment grew and grew and grew over 9 years- but the child did not. horrible pain.
in this case, there is no plug to pull. she breathes on her own. starving her to death seems pretty cruel to me, but life is cruel to begin with.
having known a terminally ill child with an extremely rare disease, i think that the most important thing really is comfort- even if youre just waiting for the inevitable. in that sense, maybe this bizarre and, at least to some degree, repulsive treatment is justified.
have some pity, people.
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2007-01-07 04:30:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Wingedfoote....I'm anti-abortion.
Submitted by WingedFoote (user info) at 2007-01-07 02:14:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2007-01-07 01:53:33 (#)
Ranking: 2
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Submitted by Jack_McCallum (user info) at 2007-01-05 14:49:00 (#)
Ranking: 0
I visited the family website, and even though I feel a deep and abiding shame for the arousal that rose within me over the repeated use of the words 'large and fully-developed breasts,' I have to say this is one more example of liberal horseshit run amok in this country.
Example, quoted from the website...
The breast bud removal has other benefits:
1-Avoiding the possibility of painful fibrocystic growth and future related surgeries. Women in Ashley's lineage have a history of fibrocystic growth.
2-Avoiding the possibility of breast cancer. Ashley has breast cancer history in her family.
3-Large breasts could "sexualize" Ashley towards her caregiver, especially when they are touched while she is being moved or handled, inviting the possibility of abuse.
This is bullshit, and the doctor who did these procedures should be stripped of his license since he obviously just wanted to get a few papers in some medical journals. These are not sound medical reasons for what was done.
If they WERE legitimate reasons, I would think a hell of a lot more women might be tempted to subject their daughters to this in cases of a strong family history of breast cancer or cysts, to see their daughters avoid possible future 'discomfort,' or to prevent the little girl from ever becoming sexualized.
Let's face it, parents are human beings, and some of them over-react or just get damn strange ideas in their heads. If we start letting them radically alter their children's bodies based on THEIR conception of how their child experiences the world, I see it as just another form of child abuse.
What happens if Ashley turns sixteen and suddenly has a marked improvement in her cognition and communication? I'm not saying she'd be 100%, but what if she reached the level of a ten year old? Wouldn't she be mentally mature enough to be aware that something had been done to make her different from her mother and sister?
This is shameless.
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I agree with this apart from the 'liberal horseshit' part...chopping children up is liberal?
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Yeah... It's called an abortion...
Submitted by DCWoody (user info) at 2007-01-07 01:53:33 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
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Submitted by Jack_McCallum (user info) at 2007-01-05 14:49:00 (#)
Ranking: 0
I visited the family website, and even though I feel a deep and abiding shame for the arousal that rose within me over the repeated use of the words 'large and fully-developed breasts,' I have to say this is one more example of liberal horseshit run amok in this country.
Example, quoted from the website...
The breast bud removal has other benefits:
1-Avoiding the possibility of painful fibrocystic growth and future related surgeries. Women in Ashley's lineage have a history of fibrocystic growth.
2-Avoiding the possibility of breast cancer. Ashley has breast cancer history in her family.
3-Large breasts could "sexualize" Ashley towards her caregiver, especially when they are touched while she is being moved or handled, inviting the possibility of abuse.
This is bullshit, and the doctor who did these procedures should be stripped of his license since he obviously just wanted to get a few papers in some medical journals. These are not sound medical reasons for what was done.
If they WERE legitimate reasons, I would think a hell of a lot more women might be tempted to subject their daughters to this in cases of a strong family history of breast cancer or cysts, to see their daughters avoid possible future 'discomfort,' or to prevent the little girl from ever becoming sexualized.
Let's face it, parents are human beings, and some of them over-react or just get damn strange ideas in their heads. If we start letting them radically alter their children's bodies based on THEIR conception of how their child experiences the world, I see it as just another form of child abuse.
What happens if Ashley turns sixteen and suddenly has a marked improvement in her cognition and communication? I'm not saying she'd be 100%, but what if she reached the level of a ten year old? Wouldn't she be mentally mature enough to be aware that something had been done to make her different from her mother and sister?
This is shameless.
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I agree with this apart from the 'liberal horseshit' part...chopping children up is liberal?
Submitted by coley (user info) at 2007-01-06 17:26:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
<3 darko, Circe, jade, and homer42.
>:( Flack, rorrim, et al.
Submitted by IntangibleHands (user info) at 2007-01-06 16:50:02 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
This made me squirm in my seat a little.
Submitted by Barnymeinhoff (user info) at 2007-01-06 06:01:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
if it was possible for me to care less about this subject it would split the atom....I had to get my gran to type this for me and even she was like...."whatever" about it.
Submitted by Jack_McCallum (user info) at 2007-01-06 00:06:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-01-05 17:11:15 (#)
Ranking: 0
This is an example of Liberal Horseshit?
haha. You simplistic fucker.
I wouldn't be surprised if Jack wrote a story one day about a young boy fondled by hippie.
--
This should cover it...
"Once There Were Faggots"
http://www.ubersite.com/m/94318
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-05 23:17:07 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Unbelievable... Keeping this severely fucked up kid like a pet and altering it to be more "convenient" to care for... "our little pillow angel" - that's fine but putting her out of her misery is sick. Some world we live in.
Submitted by jade_digitalmedia (user info) at 2007-01-05 16:07:01 (#)
Ranking: 0
i have to agree with circe, i don't think anyone can understand what these parents go through. pull the plug is just a sick notion. i don't blame them for trying something inconventional to soothe their child and help keep her at a size that they can take care of her. i will say it shocked me at first, the idea of keeping a child a child forever, but once it was explained it makes much more sense.
Submitted by joedaddy (user info) at 2007-01-05 22:23:47 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
put it in a traveling circus so it can be a productive member of society
Submitted by Circe (user info) at 2007-01-05 20:11:45 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-05 13:57:52 (#)
Ranking: 0
Please tell us how you can so expertly opine about the level of discomfort expirienced by someone you've never met that has no ability to communicate in anyway.
If a human being can't move and can't communicate the rational assumption is that they are suffering NOT that they are blissful. Granted both are assumptions but one at least has some defensible logic behind it. Jesus how stupid can you be?
_____________
She can move. She can laugh, etc. She has the mental age of 3 months and, I'm sorry, but you CAN tell when a three month old is happy. I'm basing this on what her parents say, and one can only assume that they'd know.
Submitted by rob_berg (user info) at 2007-01-05 17:11:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
This is an example of Liberal Horseshit?
haha. You simplistic fucker.
I wouldn't be surprised if Jack wrote a story one day about a young boy fondled by hippie.
Submitted by ilikesteak (user info) at 2007-01-05 16:44:15 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
Exctly how is THIS the sickest thing I'll see today?
Submitted by combatwombat (user info) at 2007-01-05 16:16:43 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
JACK!!!! For the love of Allah, stop using the word LIBERAL!!! You have no idea the shitstorm you'll bring down on us! Oh lord help us all.
Submitted by jade_digitalmedia (user info) at 2007-01-05 16:07:01 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
i have to agree with circe, i don't think anyone can understand what these parents go through. pull the plug is just a sick notion. i don't blame them for trying something inconventional to soothe their child and help keep her at a size that they can take care of her. i will say it shocked me at first, the idea of keeping a child a child forever, but once it was explained it makes much more sense.
Submitted by Jack_McCallum (user info) at 2007-01-05 14:50:33 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
First Terri Schiavo, now this.
Electro better watch his back.
Submitted by Jack_McCallum (user info) at 2007-01-05 14:49:00 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I visited the family website, and even though I feel a deep and abiding shame for the arousal that rose within me over the repeated use of the words 'large and fully-developed breasts,' I have to say this is one more example of liberal horseshit run amok in this country.
Example, quoted from the website...
The breast bud removal has other benefits:
1-Avoiding the possibility of painful fibrocystic growth and future related surgeries. Women in Ashley's lineage have a history of fibrocystic growth.
2-Avoiding the possibility of breast cancer. Ashley has breast cancer history in her family.
3-Large breasts could "sexualize" Ashley towards her caregiver, especially when they are touched while she is being moved or handled, inviting the possibility of abuse.
This is bullshit, and the doctor who did these procedures should be stripped of his license since he obviously just wanted to get a few papers in some medical journals. These are not sound medical reasons for what was done.
If they WERE legitimate reasons, I would think a hell of a lot more women might be tempted to subject their daughters to this in cases of a strong family history of breast cancer or cysts, to see their daughters avoid possible future 'discomfort,' or to prevent the little girl from ever becoming sexualized.
Let's face it, parents are human beings, and some of them over-react or just get damn strange ideas in their heads. If we start letting them radically alter their children's bodies based on THEIR conception of how their child experiences the world, I see it as just another form of child abuse.
What happens if Ashley turns sixteen and suddenly has a marked improvement in her cognition and communication? I'm not saying she'd be 100%, but what if she reached the level of a ten year old? Wouldn't she be mentally mature enough to be aware that something had been done to make her different from her mother and sister?
This is shameless.
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-05 13:57:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Please tell us how you can so expertly opine about the level of discomfort expirienced by someone you've never met that has no ability to communicate in anyway.
If a human being can't move and can't communicate the rational assumption is that they are suffering NOT that they are blissful. Granted both are assumptions but one at least has some defensible logic behind it. Jesus how stupid can you be?
Submitted by Circe (user info) at 2007-01-05 11:18:10 (#)
Ranking: 0
She's not suffering, and her parents AREN'T living in your hypothetical "perfect world."
Submitted by combatwombat (user info) at 2007-01-05 12:45:25 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
What they failed to mention was that Ashley's father discovered the "early stages of puberty" after participating in a rousing bout of incest only to discover his pecker looked as if he'd stabbed a jar of marachino cherries. The "Ashley Treatment" was developed because he preferred to engage in incest with a nine year old boy, but his "healthy" son probably would have objected.
Submitted by rorrim (user info) at 2007-01-05 11:25:24 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Circe (user info) at 2007-01-05 11:18:10 (#)
Ranking: 0
She's not suffering, and her parents AREN'T living in your hypothetical "perfect world." They have to make their decisions based on the laws we DO have, on the society that DOES exist.
You're right . Philosophically i think i'm right . Nobody can tell what she feels , for she's incommunicado . I quit the discussion here , i made my point . You keep wandering in wishfullthinkingland , have a nice trip there ...
Leaving ....Have a nice weekend , you all. use a condom.
Submitted by Circe (user info) at 2007-01-05 11:18:10 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
She's not suffering, and her parents AREN'T living in your hypothetical "perfect world." They have to make their decisions based on the laws we DO have, on the society that DOES exist.
You speaking in hypothetical terms does nothing to support your "argument." Should, could, would, fucking etc etc.
This is real, and now, and painful. They don't get to philosophise, they don't have that luxury like you. They're just the poor bastards who have to make the best decision they can.
Submitted by dexpaxas (user info) at 2007-01-05 11:16:50 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
It has been proven that high levels of estrogen can cause cancer. So are they really doing this poor girl any favors? Or is that a risk they're willing to take. Personally I say they should have left her intact so that when she's 18 they can pass her around like the "pillow angel" she ought to be.
Now I feel dirty for saying that. I need a shower.
Submitted by rorrim (user info) at 2007-01-05 11:08:10 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Circe (user info) at 2007-01-05 10:58:36 (#)
Ranking: 0
And why is A not an option ? """"
Are you fucking serious?
Why can't you put her out of her misery? BECAUSE YOU'RE LEGALLY MEDICALLY AND SOCIALLY NOT ALLOWED TO.
You're not allowed. You go to jail. It's considered murder.
I didn't write that law . Probably if you kicked it , you wouldn't doubt for so long .
Different times , these laws were written when people were still dying like flies .
And i do agree with you : All humanity in me screams it's bad to kill something living .
But not if the suffering is unbearable .
Submitted by rorrim (user info) at 2007-01-05 11:04:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-01-05 10:50:22 (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by rorrim (user info) at 2007-01-05 09:59:54 (#)
Ranking: 0
If you're not able , or not ever going to be able to earn your own living ,
according to our current capitalism rule , you should be leaving .
(check Africa : multiple 1000's die every single day . Knowing it , feeling it , suffering it...)
-----------------------
So we should kill off all people on welfare, serving life prison sentences, severly handicapped, starving, too old to work?
That's not what i'm saying . I know retards with a better work-past then i have . They have my respect for that . I respect my society for making that possible . Life prisoners wouldn't be so common if i were to write a law on it . Some make decisions that make 'm completely trash , even less worthy of living , then the person we're discussing here . If the mind works , and the will to live is there , welcome to planet earth , in my opinion .
3 lines from the article :
1 :We call her our "Pillow Angel" since she is so sweet and stays right where we place her—usually on a pillow.
2:Ashley being in a stable condition is a blessing because many kids with similarly severe disabilities tend to deteriorate and not survive beyond five years of age.
3:She rarely makes eye-contact even when it is clear that she is aware of a person's presence next to her.
These lines tell me i'm right . (as far as being right counts here .)
Submitted by Circe (user info) at 2007-01-05 10:58:36 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
And why is A not an option ? """"
Are you fucking serious?
Why can't you put her out of her misery? BECAUSE YOU'RE LEGALLY MEDICALLY AND SOCIALLY NOT ALLOWED TO.
You're not allowed. You go to jail. It's considered murder.
Submitted by rorrim (user info) at 2007-01-05 10:52:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Circe (user info) at 2007-01-05 10:25:42 (#)
Ranking: 0
"She should be put out of her misery"
"Pull the plug" "Let her die" etc etc is fine and all, but it's A) not an option in cases like this and B) really fucking hard to believe if it's your child.
I agree to all of this . But she ain't living .
And why is A not an option ? Would you make your dog suffer like this ? That's inhumane .
And B ; ofcourse you're right . But can there be really be a perfect right or wrong here ?
Emotion is a nice thing , for parties , marriage , friendship and such . What we need here
is rationalism , and a sense of reality . Give the kid peace , please .
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-01-05 10:50:22 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Submitted by rorrim (user info) at 2007-01-05 09:59:54 (#)
Ranking: 0
If you're not able , or not ever going to be able to earn your own living ,
according to our current capitalism rule , you should be leaving .
(check Africa : multiple 1000's die every single day . Knowing it , feeling it , suffering it...)
-----------------------
So we should kill off all people on welfare, serving life prison sentences, severly handicapped, starving, too old to work?
Submitted by Circe (user info) at 2007-01-05 10:25:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
"She should be put out of her misery"
Well, you know, they're not actually allowed to do that. They've taken the crap hand life dealt them and they're honest enough to deal with it in the most practical way possible. It IS easier to carry, lift, bathe, dress, cuddle someone who's small. That person IS less prone to a whole RANGE of problems with the reduced size of their body. Boobs would be uncomfortable when you're lying down all the time and can you imagine dealing with the menstrual cleanup of someone with a 3-month-old mentality?
3 months of age - mentally - is old enough to feel discomfort, warmth, happiness, joy. If that's all she's ever going to have then they've done the right thing in making it bearable for her.
"Pull the plug" "Let her die" etc etc is fine and all, but it's A) not an option in cases like this and B) really fucking hard to believe if it's your child.
I'm frankly disgusted by a lot of the comments here that are in that vein - you've shown yourselves to be bitter and unpleasant people with absolutely no empathy.
Submitted by rorrim (user info) at 2007-01-05 09:59:54 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I take a global viewpoint : This one (1) person sucks up :
1 Her parents life . (2 economicaly functional persons)
2 Loads of medical resources . (With no expectable results)
3 All sense of reality . (Indirectly , that is)
The great mistake was to let this child live in the first place , which
under normal (natural) conditions would never have occured .
If you're not able , or not ever going to be able to earn your own living ,
according to our current capitalism rule , you should be leaving .
(check Africa : multiple 1000's die every single day . Knowing it , feeling it , suffering it...)
So the conclusion is : let her dear god take her to a better place .
Submitted by indoninja (user info) at 2007-01-05 07:55:10 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Sorry, but I agree with the parents here.
they probably don't have the option of "pulling the plug" and keeping her small and in less pain is better than letting her grow up and have more pain.
Submitted by rad1101 (user info) at 2007-01-05 07:43:00 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
this poster is a poseur
Submitted by hour_man (user info) at 2007-01-05 07:39:26 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Actually I agree with what the parents did. If you're so concerned about this try and raise a full grown disablled adult. As you get older and are less able to work, they demand more attention.
It's really easy for us to sit here and judge the parents, but if I was in their shoes... I'd probably do the same thing.
Submitted by Spam (user info) at 2007-01-05 05:34:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:33:08 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Spam (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:04:26 (#)
Ranking: -2
Condeming something you don't understand just so you look like a humanitarian to the rest of society is the REAL epitome of selfishness
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Supporting something you don't understand just so YOU look like a humanitarian to the rest of society is the REAL epitome of idiocy.
--
Show me where I stated my opinion of support.
It annoys me to see these parents being accused of being selfish and wanting an easier life - I surmise that were the folks to make the decision to euthenise the child, the same people would probably be leveling the same accusations at them.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-05 03:02:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
End the fucking kid!
Submitted by TheUniter (user info) at 2007-01-05 01:46:10 EST (#)
Ranking: -1
Submitted by Orgasmatron (user info) at 2007-01-04 23:35:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
Submitted by ih8u2man (user info) at 2007-01-04 23:01:52 (#)
Ranking: 2
Please post a follow up or e-mail me the whereabouts of that uterus...
it is rare to remove one so young and I bet it would be much more tasty then your run of the mill menopause uterus...
am I right? am I right?
---
I haven't read any other reviews. I got this far, immediately thought "I bet I could write a sweet poem about the whereabouts/uses of this uterus," and stopped scrolling down.
I'm now going to take a shower, for I am unclean.
Submitted by ih8u2man (user info) at 2007-01-04 23:01:52 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Please post a follow up or e-mail me the whereabouts of that uterus...
it is rare to remove one so young and I bet it would be much more tasty then your run of the mill menopause uterus...
am I right? am I right?
(noiamnotagerman)
Submitted by Jack_McCallum (user info) at 2007-01-04 22:46:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
Where is the motherfucking ACLU now, huh?
I guess if Ashley was a Muslim they'd be into this like like pita bread in hummus.
Submitted by icarus1987 (user info) at 2007-01-04 22:10:22 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Learn to summarize.
"Ashley's a vegetable. She'll never attend prom, ride a skidoo, or enjoy clown pr0n to its fullest. To supposedly make things easier, parents allegedly want to remove her breasts and sexual organs and pump her full of estrogen."
There, three sentences that say as much as the term paper above.
Submitted by Lib (user info) at 2007-01-04 19:40:46 EST (#)
Ranking: 2
"Maximum Ride" James Patterson
Submitted by locksly (user info) at 2007-01-04 18:17:32 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
This is a tough one...
Its particularly hard to form a view as I have n dea what it would be like to be Ashleys parents
Submitted by kaos-king (user info) at 2007-01-04 16:47:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
I find the parents' motives questionable, the science to be in the name of petty research, and the point a bit extream...
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 16:46:04 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I win!
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2007-01-04 16:13:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:53:16 (#)
Ranking: 0
What exactly makes something "most heated"? Is it simply having alot of reviews in a short period of time? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the rating from what I've seen. What's the criteria?
-----------------
Yup. You just answered your own question.
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:53:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
What exactly makes something "most heated"? Is it simply having alot of reviews in a short period of time? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the rating from what I've seen. What's the criteria?
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:52:33 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Wooo!
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:52:26 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
1
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:52:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
2
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:52:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
3
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:52:07 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I'll stop at 50
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:51:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Boredom
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:51:49 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Cheap tricks
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:51:40 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Rawr
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:51:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
AND I'LL FUCKING GET IT THERE
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:50:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Most heated by 16:00
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:49:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Darko,
In a nutshell this is where I stand. I am a Darwinist.
I abhor the use of medical science to turn a nine-year-old child into a fucking doll. they should be using that time, money, equipment, and research to find cures for cancer, AIDS, etc.
I also support the idea that this child should have been killed at birth because I beleive there is no point in keeping someone alive that can't really "live."
I define life as " physically existing while physically and mentally participating in your surroundings." Something this girl obviously cannot do to the point where it is even worth the time of effort..
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:42:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:34:29 (#)
Ranking: 0
Your aruments are different, he's arguing that they are mutillating her for convinience. Thus the breast cancer statement.
By all of the reading, in her mind she is 3 months old. She thinks like a three month old and acts like a three month old. The minds age is more important than her physical age.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If shes nine years old, and she still has the mindset of a 3-month old, then there is no point in keeping her alive. NONE!
Submitted by DeathJester (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:38:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I'm against this without reservation.
I can't see how the thought of modifying your child through surgery to be less of a burden doesn't set any of your teeth permanently on edge.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:34:29 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Your aruments are different, he's arguing that they are mutillating her for convinience. Thus the breast cancer statement.
By all of the reading, in her mind she is 3 months old. She thinks like a three month old and acts like a three month old. The minds age is more important than her physical age.
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:33:15 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
She watches her parents and brothers and sisters lead a normal life all around her day and day out but she doesn't know what she's missing.... right...
They make numerous references to her crying and being uncomfortable - so much for your theory of total bliss.
And last but not least the difference is a woman with cancer has a reason to get a hysterectomy or a mastectomy other than pure speculation of some future complication. Last but not least it's not her genitals that are missing from that operation, its her uterus moron.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:11:18 (#)
Ranking: 0
Do you see the difference between taking your knowledge of life and placing yourself in that situation and saying that you would rather be dead to never knowing what you were missing out on? It's not like she ever had a normal life and is in some hell now knowing she will never be herself again. She doesn't know what she is missing out on, so she doesn't care. Ignorance is bliss. And I don't believe this gilr has made any indications that she is unwilling to go through any of these procedures or that she is in so much pain she wishes she was dead. You may think she should be put out of her misery, but she doesn't even know what misery is.
Is it ok for women with cancer to mastectomy? How is this different. Just because she doesn't have genitalia doesn't mean she isn't a person or is some sick abomination.
Exactly. Even worse when they try to go to elaborate lengths to justify it as "best for the child's quality of life," rather than admiting they're too fucked up to face reality.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:10:54 (#)
Ranking: 0
Its sad really, when a child is born like this. But whats sadder is when her parents just wont put her out of her fucking misery.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:33:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Spam (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:04:26 (#)
Ranking: -2
Condeming something you don't understand just so you look like a humanitarian to the rest of society is the REAL epitome of selfishness
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Supporting something you don't understand just so YOU look like a humanitarian to the rest of society is the REAL epitome of idiocy.
Submitted by JonnyX (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:32:19 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Paris Hilton and Madonna are going to be all over this
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:31:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Just coz she's a vegetable doesn't mean she's a chomp.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:28:05 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:19:56 (#)
Ranking: 0
I would be yes, but back when I was 3 months old? Probably not. I think you guys are giving way to much credit into this girls mental capacities if you think she can be miserable with her situation. I'm sure she feels pain when there is pain, but i think that is the only negative reaction she has.
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But she's not 3 months, She's NINE YEARS! Shes old enough to make up her own mind about shit. Wheteher she can express it or not.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:26:42 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Do you see the difference between taking your knowledge of life and placing yourself in that situation and saying that you would rather be dead to never knowing what you were missing out on? It's not like she ever had a normal life and is in some hell now knowing she will never be herself again. She doesn't know what she is missing out on, so she doesn't care. Ignorance is bliss. And I don't believe this gilr has made any indications that she is unwilling to go through any of these procedures or that she is in so much pain she wishes she was dead. You may think she should be put out of her misery, but she doesn't even know what misery is.
Is it ok for women with cancer to mastectomy? How is this different. Just because she doesn't have genitalia doesn't mean she isn't a person or is some sick abomination.
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This girl hasnt made any indications because SHE CAN'T make any indication. The little shit can't talk or move her arms or anything.
How does women with cancer fit into this argument?
You're right. Women without genetalia are still people. People that TALK! People that can WORK! People that can DO SHIT!
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:19:56 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I would be yes, but back when I was 3 months old? Probably not. I think you guys are giving way to much credit into this girls mental capacities if you think she can be miserable with her situation. I'm sure she feels pain when there is pain, but i think that is the only negative reaction she has.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:16:55 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
If I couldnt eat, drink, fuck, or talk, I'd be pretty fucking miserable and I'm sure you would too.
Submitted by Kracka (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:14:31 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
nothing wrong with this in my opinion
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:12:51 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
What makes you think she's in misery, other than that she doesn't match your standards of living?
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:11:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Do you see the difference between taking your knowledge of life and placing yourself in that situation and saying that you would rather be dead to never knowing what you were missing out on? It's not like she ever had a normal life and is in some hell now knowing she will never be herself again. She doesn't know what she is missing out on, so she doesn't care. Ignorance is bliss. And I don't believe this gilr has made any indications that she is unwilling to go through any of these procedures or that she is in so much pain she wishes she was dead. You may think she should be put out of her misery, but she doesn't even know what misery is.
Is it ok for women with cancer to mastectomy? How is this different. Just because she doesn't have genitalia doesn't mean she isn't a person or is some sick abomination.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:10:54 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:02:53 (#)
Ranking: 0
Flack, are you taking the stance that only people who can prove their usefulness deserve to live? If so, who is in charge of killing those who don't, and who gets to judge?
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Im not advocating the mass-genocide of all useless people. Im just saying that vegetables like this girl her should be left to fucking die. Thats it.
Its sad really, when a child is born like this. But whats sadder is when her parents just wont put her out of her fucking misery.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:08:22 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:56:00 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:52:07 (#)
Ranking: 0
Doesn't matter. She still does not contribute to the progress of the human race, and has become a total burden on society.
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Kill all senior citizens! Kill all homeless people! Kill everyone on welfare!
If you only want people alive who aren't a burden on society, you'll have to kill alot more people than just this girl.
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Not all senior citizens are burdens on society. My grandfather is pushing 80 and still runs his own Chemistry lab.
Not all homeless people are burdens on society. Im sure that at least once you've met a man or woman that has had a job, car and money but lost it due to cutbacks/downsizing/whatever and eventually was able to get back on his/her feet after a bout of scrounging.
Not all welfare recipients are burdens on society. Just because they are on welfare doesn't mean they don't work and contribute. While there is alot of welfare fraud, it's still a noble concept.
I know that alot of these people are burdens on society and, yes, maybe they should be put down. But not ALL of them are total burdens. Some just got fucked.
Even the Corky-esque retard working at Burger King still manages to contribute to scoiety, while "Pillow Angel" can't even hold a fucking toy.
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:08:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
No actually it's pretty clear cut my mentally deficient friend...
This person clearly doesn't have the mental capacities to make any decision for themselves and if they did it is unreasonable to assume they would want to live 80, 90 or 100 years in this condition. The parents are doing something to prolong life and make care easier on them and justifying it through a long list of mental and logical acrobatics to make it seem more humane and sane than it really is. End of story.
Submitted by Spam (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:04:26 (#)
Ranking: -2
Condeming something you don't understand just so you look like a humanitarian to the rest of society is the REAL epitome of selfishness
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:05:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Close enough. What she is worse, apparently concious in some way but unable to move her body - a prison sentence for life of the worst kind. So let's mutilate her body in the name of convenience and keep her alive as long as possible so we can all feel good about ourselves. Disgusting.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:54:09 (#)
Ranking: 0
You calling her a vegetable is definitely not what the article says she is.
No I already told you I'd rather be dead. I can't believe all the ridiculous ways in which people are justifying this. Sick!
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:51:20 (#)
Ranking: 0
How would you like having the mindset of a 3 year old in the body of a 16 year old? You are looking at the surgeries in regards to how they would affect normal people, she is not one and will never be. For fucks sake, she can't even lift her own head up. Would you rather that the parents keep her in a harness all the time and move her around with a system of pulleys?
Submitted by Spam (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:04:26 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
Condeming something you don't understand just so you look like a humanitarian to the rest of society is the REAL epitome of selfishness
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:02:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Flack, are you taking the stance that only people who can prove their usefulness deserve to live? If so, who is in charge of killing those who don't, and who gets to judge?
Submitted by Unabonger (user info) at 2007-01-04 15:02:53 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
darwin drinks machiattos?
news to me.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:57:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:52:07 (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:40:14 (#)
Ranking: 0
People aren't pets, you can't just put them down when they become an inconvinience. This isn't the same as Schiavo, this girl actually responds to her surroundings.
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Doesn't matter. She still does not contribute to the progress of the human race, and has become a total burden on society.
Even dogs give more to our society than she does.
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And furthermore, just because she reacts to her surroundings doesn't make her any less useless. Ameobas react to their surroundings and they dont even have a fucking brain.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:56:00 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:52:07 (#)
Ranking: 0
Doesn't matter. She still does not contribute to the progress of the human race, and has become a total burden on society.
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Kill all senior citizens! Kill all homeless people! Kill everyone on welfare!
If you only want people alive who aren't a burden on society, you'll have to kill alot more people than just this girl.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:54:09 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
You calling her a vegetable is definitely not what the article says she is.
Submitted by Monarch (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:52:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
...why is this sick?
I must that this is nothing like I expected it to be. I was expecting some Shaivo-esque drama or something.
All in all, no one is arguing with this excepting a few hippies and zealots. Having read the whole web site, I see that a lot of thought and effort has gone into doing what is in the best interests for their child.
As I am NOT the parent of a severely disabled child, I am not fit to decry their methods. But since they don't break any of my religious or societal beliefs, I wish them all the best.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:52:07 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:40:14 (#)
Ranking: 0
People aren't pets, you can't just put them down when they become an inconvinience. This isn't the same as Schiavo, this girl actually responds to her surroundings.
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Doesn't matter. She still does not contribute to the progress of the human race, and has become a total burden on society.
Even dogs give more to our society than she does.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:51:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:44:25 (#)
Ranking: 0
If I were that girl I would not want to live would you? And furthermore then apparently it's ok to mutilate their bodies and subject them to bizarre "treatments" to make them more "convenient"? That's what you're saying basically if you support this garbage.
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The girl has made no indications that she is in constant pain because of this. Eve Dr. Kevorkian would only do assisted suicide with people who were in large amounts of pain as well with being terminally ill.
How would you like having the mindset of a 3 year old in the body of a 16 year old? You are looking at the surgeries in regards to how they would affect normal people, she is not one and will never be. For fucks sake, she can't even lift her own head up. Would you rather that the parents keep her in a harness all the time and move her around with a system of pulleys?
Submitted by scourge (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:51:13 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I am not sure how I feel about this.
Disturbed, definitely, but beyond that...
I need to think about this one a bit.
Submitted by apollo88 (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:45:49 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
i agree with the parents
who wants a lumbering mong when you can have a manageable kid
there's nothing cuter than young mongs there's nothing more repulsive than old ones
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:44:25 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
If I were that girl I would not want to live would you? And furthermore then apparently it's ok to mutilate their bodies and subject them to bizarre "treatments" to make them more "convenient"? That's what you're saying basically if you support this garbage.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:40:14 (#)
Ranking: 0
People aren't pets, you can't just put them down when they become an inconvinience. This isn't the same as Schiavo, this girl actually responds to her surroundings.
Submitted by darko (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:40:14 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
People aren't pets, you can't just put them down when they become an inconvinience. This isn't the same as Schiavo, this girl actually responds to her surroundings.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:39:16 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
I swear, after reading this a 2nd time, Darwin is going to come back from the dead, go to "pillow angel's" house, kick her father in the nuts and say "What the fuck are you thinking?"
He will then promptly kill "Pillow Angel" along with her idiot parents, dump their bodies in a lake of some sort, and immediately drive to Starbucks for a Caramel Mocchiato.
Submitted by Beano312003 (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:38:18 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Just saw this on the news... undecided 0
Submitted by SilentRenegade (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:37:21 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Sounds to me like the mother doesn't want to give her husband a Realistic love doll.
Submitted by i_can_get_you_a_toe (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:37:20 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Shoot the bitch
Submitted by homer42 (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:31:58 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Unfucking believable isn't it? Clearly this child has no quality of life to begin with... they are using prevention of diseases that have not occured yet and they have no reason to believe will occur as part of their justification for this mutilation. Not to mention trying to prevent naturally occuring diseases that might put end to her suffering only amounts to prolonging her agony. I can't believe they found US doctors to take part in this disgrace. SICK.
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:29:33 (#)
Ranking: 0
Jesus...
...talk about the epitomy of selfishness, on the parents' part.
Submitted by CaptainThorns (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:29:33 EST (#)
Ranking: 0
Jesus...
...talk about the epitomy of selfishness, on the parents' part.
Submitted by Flack (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:28:08 EST (#)
Ranking: 1
I bet Darwin is rolling in his grave!
Submitted by ajanssen (user info) at 2007-01-04 14:24:37 EST (#)
Ranking: -2
At first if you dont succeed failure may be your style.