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Is it fraud, or is it intolerance and discrimination?

Submitted by skrapmetal at 2014-07-30 10:50:04 EDT
Rating: 1.75 on 5 ratings (24 reviews) (Review this item) (V)

http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/28937825-522/hot-tub-tryst-at-adults-only-club-turns-violent.html

Hot-tub tryst at adults-only club turns violent
BY KATE MCCANN Correspondent July 29, 2014 12:48PM
Updated: July 30, 2014 2:10AM

A planned sexual tryst at a private, adults-only club in Midlothian turned violent when two men realized one of their companions was transgender, police said.

Midlothian police said the driver of a red Mustang flagged them down the night of July 22 after an incident at Aura, 14400 S. Cicero Ave., a private club resembling a hotel that bills itself as a “romantic getaway” with rooms that boast mirrored ceilings, hot tubs and “vibe” lighting.

When police approached the car, they observed two nude women — one with an eye swollen shut — and a naked transgender woman.

The three told police a man inside a room at Aura had struck one woman after it was discovered the third woman was transgender.

Police instructed the three to get dressed, and they then returned to the hotel room to discuss the incident with the two men involved. One of the men, who described himself as a club promoter, said he and his friend contacted the three others on the Internet and agreed to pay them each $75 to all have sex together. The five people involved met up at a club in Markham before relocating to the Midlothian club.

One man said he was lying in bed with one woman when the other two people and his friend decided to hop in the Jacuzzi. That’s when his friend realized the third woman was transgender.

The man in the hot tub said he tried to leave, but the woman began to hit him because she was angry she wasn’t going to get paid, according to the police report. That man told police he fled to his car and locked his doors.

The women denied they were prostitutes and told police they all met at the club and agreed to go to the hotel to have sex together without payment. The other woman told police the second man attacked her associate without being provoked.

Police released all five without charges due to their conflicting stories.

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Now, then.

Two guys want to have a simple fivesome with a some professionals in a private club. They locate these professionals and make a deal. These two guys want to bone these three women. Except one of the women is a guy with implants and surgeries designed to imitate the appearance of a woman. Apparently, the imitation is poorly constructed, because the guys discover this little fact and become upset. Punches are thrown, embarrassment is felt, cops are called, and the whole incident blows over after a few minutes.

And now, we are left with the following questions:
1. Does a transgender prostitute with the appearance of a woman have a duty to inform a prospective client that she is in fact a guy with implants and a lot of deconstructive/reconstructive surgeries designed to imitate the appearance of a woman, and not an actual woman at all?
2. Does a prospective client of a prostitute have the right to expect that the vagina he's willing to pay to get into is in fact a natural one and not one that been fabricated by modern medicine (if that sort of vagina is indeed the sort that he wants to get into, of course. It takes all kinds.)

Further, let's say the parties are not ho/john. Let's say they just meet by chance in a bar or at the gym or the grocery store. The dude thinks he's getting on well with the 'chick', and the 'chick' genuinely likes the dude. At what point does it become necessary to plop the transgender card onto the table? If the dude is straight and he thinks he's dating someone who is an actual female but he's really not, is he allowed to be pissed off that he's been lied to? Or is that discrimination against transgender people? If the subject of whether the 'chick' is in fact female hasn't come up in conversation or through observation during a sexual encounter, has he in fact been lied to? A lie of omission, perhaps? Does the transgendered participant 'chick' have any responsibility to inform the dude that he's maybe making incorrect assumptions about the fundamental nature of the object of his desires?

And what if a gay guy thinks he's getting blown by a twink in the bathroom of the Blue Oyster but it's actually a girl with A cups and a well done fake mustache doing the polishing? Doesn't make him suddenly straight, obviously, but is he allowed to be angry about the misrepresentation?

What about transgendered 'guys' who get the testosterone shots and the titectomies and a junkoplasty? What responsibilities do they have to the people they are in potentially close relationships with?

As I am in a LTMR this is not really something I have to deal with. Glad about that, actually. And back when I wasn't in a LTMR, the technology really wasn't available to make a guy appear like a girl in any manner that would stand to the least scrutiny so the cross dressers were obvious. Not that they were bad people who were to be shunned and avoided, just that they were people I didn't want to have sex with.

So enlighten me, oh Ubermench. Those of you who on occasion still get a bit drunkywunky and go to bed with people you just met: Ever been fooled? Those of you who start your evenings with a new prospect whilst sober: Ever been faced with the "I had fun on this date and I'd like to see you again, but before we go any further you should know that I was born a guy and I've had a lot of work done" disclosure? Those of you who are on your own particular journey of transgender discovery: When do you drop that bit of knowledge on your potential or actual SO?

What's the proper transgender etiquette?



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Submitted by skrapmetal at 2014-08-31 10:46:18 EDT (#)

Submitted by whyzyrystan at 2014-08-31 08:41:07 EDT (#)
Rating: -2

since you married interspecies i don't see the big deal

fag below
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So sad, whysie. You've put that review on here, what... 40 times now? I kept deleting it and you kept putting the same thing back up. Well, now I'll leave it there for you. I know it's all you have.

I've opened up my other posts for you as well. Bust out your spreadsheet of old tired failures and go do your thing.

Submitted by skrapmetal at 2014-08-26 16:14:31 EDT (#)

So sad.

Submitted by Shlongy at 2014-08-04 18:29:16 EDT (#)

We saw your "hilarious comment" the first 4 times you posted it, whysie.

Submitted by Shlongy at 2014-08-02 13:53:03 EDT (#)
Rating: 1

I eat a lot of red meat, and as much pussy as I can.

Submitted by Sacrilicious at 2014-08-01 20:29:15 EDT (#)
Rating: 2

Saccy - would discovering your potential SO is an omnivore be a dealbreaker for you, or could you work around it if there were other factors that made the relationship worthwhile? Honest question, not being snarky.

On reflection, I think the omnivore/vegan comparison is not a good one because you find that out the first time you go out for lunch together. At that point it's easy for each to put the other smoothly into the Friend Zone if either party has a problem with that dining dissonance. If you don't find out the issue exists until the clothes come off, well, it might then be a bit too late for the offramp to the FZ.
===
Most of my favorite people are omnivores, and I don't relish the thought of eliminating over 90% of the population from my personal dating pool, but it is a significant part of my lifestyle and would be a serious consideration. I dine with omnivores all the time. But when it would become a bigger issue for me is when we would start sharing a fridge. I could probably live with a vegetarian as a compromise, but I truly want my home/personal space to be meat free, hence the potential complication.

I agree that it isn't a direct comparison, because like you said, cat's out of the bag at the first meal. But also because assuming the transgendered person has fully transitioned, the person hopefully now feels whole and balanced and engaging in the potential relationship doesn't require decisions 3 times a day, like sharing meals does;) If one person is attractive to another on multiple levels and accepted by him or her, then I feel that that should be the basis of continuing with the relationship. I personally think that gender reassignment is a HUGE undertaking that takes critical thought, endurance of pain, and physical and emotional tolls that would very much contribute, most likely positively, to a person's character so I imagine sharing such information is sharing a very significant part of one's life. I think the healthiest relationships would be those in which full disclosure takes place once things are going down the serious path.

Submitted by Fucking foul at 2014-08-01 12:53:38 EDT (#)

Gender identity is somewhat more complicated than dietary restrictions though, isn't it? Vegans catch flak from jerks sometimes, but trans people often have to consider the possibility of actual threats to their personal safety when deciding whether or not to disclose their status. Trans people are WAY more likely to be victims of assault than cisgender people.

Like Sac said, once you get to a point in the relationship where commitment is being discussed, then the trans person has to decide how to proceed. Gender reassignment is a medical procedure, so I see it as being like a pregnancy, or chronic illness like cancer or diabetes - there are compelling reasons that a committed romantic partner (as opposed to a casual date or hookup) does need to be brought up to speed, but I don't consider "so they can decide if this means they're gay" to be one of the reasons, if that makes any sense.

Submitted by skrapmetal at 2014-08-01 07:03:10 EDT (#)

I suppose it boils down to: if the altered body parts aren't potentially going to be employed in the interaction, then it's probably not necessary to discuss them. Or it should be that way, anyway.

Saccy - would discovering your potential SO is an omnivore be a dealbreaker for you, or could you work around it if there were other factors that made the relationship worthwhile? Honest question, not being snarky.

On reflection, I think the omnivore/vegan comparison is not a good one because you find that out the first time you go out for lunch together. At that point it's easy for each to put the other smoothly into the Friend Zone if either party has a problem with that dining dissonance. If you don't find out the issue exists until the clothes come off, well, it might then be a bit too late for the offramp to the FZ.

Submitted by Sacrilicious at 2014-08-01 01:09:06 EDT (#)
Rating: 2

Long story short, what Jeanneee said. I don't mean to make light of the very complex issues that surround the transgendered, but I do think society needlessly overcomplicates it due to lack of understanding that will eventually come with education.

Studies are now skewing toward transgenderism as a legitimate discrepancy between "mental" gender and body. Not everyone "owes" someone their history, medical, physical. or otherwise. If a serious relationship is to be pursued, then the dialogue may change, but for frivolous relationships, it's really no one's business.

I am only giving full disclosure because it is my body and my prerogative: I am a vegan, and yes, I'm OK with that being a dealbreaker.

Submitted by FALLEN at 2014-07-31 08:28:06 EDT (#)


Submitted by Tyrone at 2014-07-31 01:10:09 EDT (#)
Rating: 2

I agree with skrapmetal. Its important to disclose these things. The way people look at things can be very subjective at times, and that's sll do to personal beliefs and/or history. I'm certainly not saying a transgender person is any less a human being than you or I, but we certainly cannot ignore the objective fact that they were born with genitals of the opposite sex. From a biological standpoint, where do we start measuring when a transgender officially becomes the opposite sex?


I also wonder what dat nigga's pussy feel like. Dat snatch might feel like fuckin heave, nahmean...

Submitted by skrapmetal at 2014-07-30 17:21:09 EDT (#)

Ya gotta admit: Jeanneee is one of the good ones.

Also: The two guys in the story may or may not have been Bart and Habeeb.

Submitted by Fucking foul at 2014-07-30 16:35:40 EDT (#)

Submitted by skrapmetal at 2014-07-30 15:57:03 EDT (#)


I cannot disagree with that, Jeanneee. But some do.

http://www.shorelinemedia.net/ludington_daily_news/archives/article_8213c159-118e-5b57-b140-4f6757cb0ddb.html

The Michigan Womyn's Music Festival asks that transsexuals (and men, presumably) not attend as their festival is promoted as being "a women's event created by and for women only." I love this quote: "We''re here to celebrate, have fun, go to concerts and not be focused on the issues of 15 people.""
________________________________

Well I think that's a bunch of bullshit. Third-wave feminism is notorious for transphobia and exclusion of trans women. IGNORANT.

Submitted by skrapmetal at 2014-07-30 16:32:43 EDT (#)

I AM NOT PICKING UP TRANNIES!




















...any more.

Submitted by FALLEN at 2014-07-30 16:06:01 EDT (#)

Not knowing the extent of modern science, does a man-made cooter match an OEM version?

depth? wetness? appearance?

If not, that conversation as to why things are like they are downstairs will happen sooner or later. Then you get Skrap's scenario about "well you should have told me.."


I am more interested as to how long we can discuss this maturely before we uber-out and tell Skrap he needs to stop picking up trannys.
shit...

Submitted by skrapmetal at 2014-07-30 15:57:03 EDT (#)

I cannot disagree with that, Jeanneee. But some do.

http://www.shorelinemedia.net/ludington_daily_news/archives/article_8213c159-118e-5b57-b140-4f6757cb0ddb.html

The Michigan Womyn's Music Festival asks that transsexuals (and men, presumably) not attend as their festival is promoted as being "a women's event created by and for women only." I love this quote: "We''re here to celebrate, have fun, go to concerts and not be focused on the issues of 15 people.""

Submitted by Fucking foul at 2014-07-30 15:44:46 EDT (#)

I see your point about the honesty thing. But for a trans woman to say "I'm a woman, end of story" is not dishonest.

Submitted by Perk "Grownman Perkiness" man at 2014-07-30 15:34:24 EDT (#)

As long as you get top it doesn't matter, anything more is gay... What?

Submitted by skrapmetal at 2014-07-30 14:58:26 EDT (#)

I'm not disagreeing with someone's logic in doing the transition. I guess I'm saying that it's a big thing to hide in an intimate relationship in which honesty plays a very important role. It'd be the same if they are or should be on meds for mental disease (NOT equating transgendering with mental disease, to be clear) or if the person I'm involved with is a born-again radical vegan (also NOT equating veganism with mental disease OR transgendering). I'd want to know that early on. Maybe it's a deal breaker, maybe not. But I think in those sort of situations I deserve to know.

Submitted by JonnyX at 2014-07-30 14:41:58 EDT (#)
Rating: 2

They should sue for false advertising.

Submitted by Fucking foul at 2014-07-30 14:23:51 EDT (#)

No. Why does it matter what they used to be? If a person transitions, it's because they were never really their "birth sex" to begin with.

Submitted by skrapmetal at 2014-07-30 13:50:35 EDT (#)

Jeanneee - I dunno... wouldn't you want to know early on if the person you were dating used to be the opposite sex? Like before the making out starts? Maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but still it'd be better to know. Is it necessary to make that knowledge available in non-intimate relationships? THAT, I can see, should be entirely up to the trans person. I mean, if my bank teller is a transgendered woman, I don't care and I don't need to know.

CT - I thought the same thing as I was typing this post. Coinkydink?

Submitted by Fucking foul at 2014-07-30 13:17:30 EDT (#)

Proper trans etiquette: trans man = man, trans woman = woman. Not that complicated. It's entirely up to the trans person whether or not they want to disclose their history.

Submitted by CaptainThorns at 2014-07-30 12:23:46 EDT (#)

I must defer to whysie on this subject, since he's the resident expert.

Submitted by skrapmetal at 2014-07-30 10:50:01 EDT (#)

“Hey, whatever a man and a woman and another woman with a penis and a midget do to a donkey, that’s their business.” - Dave Attell

"Who knew?" - More people than will probably admit it


One day you may achieve something that we Simpsons have dreamed about
for generations. You may outsmart someone.

-- Homer Simpson
Bart the Genius